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The more you know Registered: 03/11/20 Posts: 463 Last seen: 2 years, 4 months |
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Post deleted by Vylie
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I'm an alien, I eat uranium. Registered: 03/04/20 Posts: 1,131 Last seen: 2 months, 17 days |
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It's in reference to a different, asinine thread where someone proudly proclaims they just shove monotubs of mold to the side and leave them there to keep piling up. Wanting to keep tubs of sporulating mold in your home because you're lazy is one thing but being proud of the fact is mental illness.
Like, fuck me I hope it's not a rental unit.
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The more you know Registered: 03/11/20 Posts: 463 Last seen: 2 years, 4 months |
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Post deleted by Vylie
Reason for deletion: ... Edited by Vylie (10/15/20 12:58 PM)
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The more you know Registered: 03/11/20 Posts: 463 Last seen: 2 years, 4 months |
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Post deleted by Vylie
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Stranger Registered: 05/20/19 Posts: 492 Last seen: 1 year, 6 months |
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Quote: The distinction matters. You asked why spores of a parasitic mold would germinate outside of its host organism. In this case meaning why would mold spores germinate on coir But different molds will behave differently. It's not always just about competing for substrate. A mold like Trich does not need to compete for space with cubes because it can just hydrolyze its competitor, whilst its competitor cannot directly fight back That distinction might mean fuck all to most cultivators, because a moldy tub is a moldy tub and those kinds of details are often just academic when it comes to growing in bulk. But to me that attitude totally lacking in scientific curiosity, which is one that is promoted by some of the experienced growers on here and then enforced by the parrots sucking up to them is a very boring one Real research on cubes is scarce, obviously due to its legality issues around the world. Mushroom cultivators are pretty much the ones who know the organism better than any other group in the world. Ideally it should be on growers to promote a culture that is more willing to ask questions, all kinds of questions, even ones that seem ridiculous like "will spores germinate on coir" Lord Kelvin (the guy who the Kelvin temp scale is named after) is infamous now for having tried to calculate the age of the Earth and coming up with several millions. He attacked the notion that it could be much, much older, and he was one of the most respected and admire physicists in the world. We later determined, of course, that his estimate was off by a few billions of years
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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It's relatively common knowledge here since the RR days that outside grows have less problem with mold and why, but even people who are pretty knowledgeable somehow manage to say, ahem, mediocre-at-best stuff on this topic like "you can grow mushrooms outside and the spore load there is really high."
Oh? Could there be something about indoor conditions that *increases* the risk of mold that is somehow magically a separate factor from whether or not your spawn was clean? /sarcasm We know a lot of relevant things about this statement, such as that air outside is consistently much fresher and exchanges far more which reduces co2 near the mycelia, humidity is more likely to fluctuate, and that Mother Nature cleans up spores outside with rain far more often and more effectively than humans do in their buildings. Nobody's consistent luck eliminates the reality of possibilities that they supposedly are not experiencing, but luck definitely could contribute to their delusions of skill and topical authority. In short, "That doesn't happen to me here so it's impossible for everyone everywhere" is a dumb statement no matter how otherwise smart the people saying it may act. Here are some of my points: 1, FUCKING PAUL FUCKING STAMETS in "Growing Gourmet & Medicinal Mushrooms" states that if you rehydrate shiitake blocks for another flush and then put them right back in a humidified fruiting chamber that you WILL get green mold. These are otherwise healthy blocks that are PRACTICALLY GUARANTEED TO GET MOLD IF A CONDITION ALLOWS according to someone smarter and more experienced than virtually everyone on this forum (with some exceptions, don't @me). You have to have humidity fluctuations if you don't want healthy blocks to mold in a mushroom farm. Making sure spawn is clean is an early troubleshooting step but apparently to this forum it's the ONLY one? (I'd like to point out that local air filtration is not a real solution to that problem either. I know that's originally what this thread asked about, but my only comment on that specifically is agreement with starbones, it's imperative to have air filtration in mushroom cultivation in general but this isn't really why, although running a flow hood in your grow environment could only help never hurt. As a gourmet mushroom cultivator, I assure you you don't want to grow many of them in your home without extra filtration, and mold is even worse.) 2, Open-air spawning and monotubs are 110% a vector for contamination and then provide absolutely all of the conditions that mold love. Even detractors wouldn't dare claim against that, so why they're not a bit more open-minded would baffle me if my expectations weren't already so low. 3, "Healthy mycelium fight off mold" is an absolute statement, but mycelia and their behavior/success are not absolute, and this forum kinda automatically concludes that uncontaminated spawn means a sure victory against mold. "uncontaminated grains" and "healthy mycelium" are not the same thing lmao. You can absolutely have a weak as fuck mycelium successfully colonize a jar of well-sterilized grains and end up with failure and contamination. One mycelium culture is different from the next, and even one mold spore is different from the next, and one condition can be different from the next. Nobody here can prove with anything credible that it's impossible for clean grains to result in a contaminated bulk substrate for other reasons so it's just strong words from know-it-all forum tryhards. 4, "Coir won't grow mold" is a lie, spoken by people seemingly lucky enough to have not seen it. Mold can grow on nearly anything if the conditions are right and stable long enough. "I've never had mold grow on coir" gets a thousand thumbs up here while "I've had mold grow on coir" gets completely ignored and dismissed. It happened right here, even - ya'll got ma boy starbones fucked up. 5, That^ forum environment then has more people saying these kinds of things when they don't get failures and *automatically assuming* it was their spawn when they do, so honestly even the anecdotal evidence probably isn't evidence since much of it is considered "evidence" due to circular reasoning. Yes unclean spawn absolutely WILL result in further contamination, but the attitude around here is that ONLY bad spawn can do it and that's nothing more than the unscientific self-assuredness of an internet forum. You need to have a little doubt, it's healthy y'all I promise. 6, People have different environments and seldom truly know the relevant details of their own environments much less how they compare to others. Short yet big point. I get a bit of a kick out of seeing people smugly presume their commentary will be universal on this basis alone. Personal experience points: When in the swing of things I have typically had a super high clean rate in my grains, agars, etc. Brag-worthy rates. I don't get random mold growth on my grain cakes, period, a stark difference than from what sometimes happens on my bulk subs when not in sterile conditions. I have done thousands of "Lipa's tek" hot-water hydration of hardwood sawdust pellets followed by open-air spawning in a handful of different locations/environments, and the exact same procedures in different areas (mostly within one 30-mile radius, mind you) have yielded different contamination rates, some of those locations having rates that were absolutely unacceptable and/or often noticeably worsening with time, so even though I don't think local contaminant load is a massive deal I can't discount it entirely either. What eliminated nearly all pre-flush contaminations *for me* in each and every case was swapping to inoculating only sterile media in sterile conditions, just like when I originally stopped growing monotubs and trays (but still grew with bulk subs!), so assertions my sterile technique is to blame have always been weak AF seeing as apparently my sterile technique is about all I could rely on for assured success. I honestly don't like talking about this very much because my years on this forum have told me that people reject experiences unlike theirs when it comes to these topics, but there's my 2¢ anyway. I've even had people - some of them respected around here - message me talking about how they refused to share their experience on this forum because of how people treat others who speak out against this forum's rigid clique-like mindset about it. Some of the posters right here are great examples of that. We're almost all fuckin amateurs so the people with the gall to say it can ONLY EVER be dirty spawn disgust me, especially when they pair it with undeserved disrespectful mockery and insults. Wanna tell them that bacterial spawn or hidden mold in spawn is the most likely source, at least in your experience? Fuckin go for it, I'd sign off on that. But y'all go too far. inb4 someone comes rabidly to the defense of this forum's shortcomings. Hey, at least I haven't seen anybody talk about how they don't get moldy subs despite all the *DOGS* in their house so this conversation has improved at least that little bit since the days of FrankHorrigan I will never not laugh at the memory of that person lol
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts • Edited by Violet (10/15/20 02:22 PM)
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Say hello to my little friend Registered: 09/15/12 Posts: 37,808 Loc: Canada |
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Frank had ferrets not dogs. Cron and I were the dog people.
-------------------- Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups My Favorite Grow Logs Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation The worst threads all have the same subjects Q & A.M.U. ![]()
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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Coulda sworn it was dogs, been so long I guess, but fortunately for my point ferrets don't produce mold either lol.
Hi pasty!
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Say hello to my little friend Registered: 09/15/12 Posts: 37,808 Loc: Canada |
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True, CFU’s are the source of contams, not dogs, vibration, or water. Shaking a can of paint won’t magically fill it with bacteria. Same with spawn jars. The bacteria is either there or it’s not. You either sterilized the spawn enough or you didn’t. You either prepped the grain properly or you didn’t. You either give it conditions to thrive or you don’t. All vectors can be traced with enough control.
Hey Violet, hope you’re well
-------------------- Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups My Favorite Grow Logs Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation The worst threads all have the same subjects Q & A.M.U. ![]()
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I'm an alien, I eat uranium. Registered: 03/04/20 Posts: 1,131 Last seen: 2 months, 17 days |
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Quote: I love you.
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ὕδωρχοίρος Registered: 07/16/19 Posts: 1,367 Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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Quote: I try to write very deliberately (not to imply that what I'm saying is factual or without err). And that's why I entered this thread with, "The way that we grow". "We" pertaining to the majority of people on this forum. "The way" pertaining to monotubs with a mold-resistant, low-nutrient growing media like coir and vermiculite inoculated with an axenic culture. The fact of the matter is that a variety of methods have been, to some extent, through the process of the scientific method and the one that showed the most success in a practical setting is the one that everyone squawks. There's plenty of merit to the idea that you absolutely are inhibiting the growth of contaminant cultures (including trichoderma) by promoting your culture to fully colonize a substrate at the fastest rate (among all present cultures) and, quite frankly, the method wouldn't work so well if that were not the case. That's not to say that growing in a near-sterile environment on a near-sterile substrate tailor-made for the explicit demands of a given species doesn't have its merit, but it certainly isn't practical by means of the methods people have presented thus far. With the method I've been referencing, "the way that we grow", if you start deconstructing the method and seeking to root out specific vectors, you start to lose the systemic approach that the method is based on and transition into a symptom-based method. Like removing a pathogen from your environment vs potentiating the immune system... sure, some pathogens are most effectively addressed by removal, but having a thriving immune system will better your chances of responding to all of the common ones in your environment.
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Stranger Registered: 05/20/19 Posts: 492 Last seen: 1 year, 6 months |
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Quote: I agree with you almost completely. And if we could all, as a community acknowledge that this is a functional approach that we take because it works extremely well, then I wouldn't have bothered to comment in this thread at all. But one side of the "debate" was being unfairly ridiculed because what was once a general rule of thumb has practically become a dogmatic pillar of truth and as long as you parrot this truth you're allowed to be as toxic as you want I remember once in another thread I brought up the possibility of intracellular contams and an experienced user (who I hadn't even been addressing) just replied with a laughing gif. Apparently the notion of viruses that could infect cubes existing seemed laughable to them for some reason. There's no real record of such a contam existing, but that's for practical reasons. Viruses don't just grow into lumps of cells on agar the way bacteria and mold do I know that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, I guess my point is just that it seems that the community places more value on showing off flushes or inventing gimmicky new teks over working together to really understand this organism that we all ostensibly love so much
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Say hello to my little friend Registered: 09/15/12 Posts: 37,808 Loc: Canada |
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I’ve been following this mess for a while. I see a lot of intransigence on both sides. Obviously things like super high sporeload, weak culture (though if you’re using agar this shouldn’t be a persistent issue, the second it’s recognized the culture is tossed), drastic environmental changes all contribute to contams getting a foothold. But in my limited experience, these issues are rare.
I had an environmental issue once. I took on a partner for a short time and at one point everything triched out. For weeks I tested my cultures and ran separate grows. I decided my spawn was clean and so barring all other options I paid a visit to the grow area. Turns out they had a giant garbage can full of sporulating trich right next to the tubs. It was likely 150 quarts of pure mold. I flipped my shit and that was that. So if you have 150 quarts of sporulating mold in your grow space, you will likely see a very high fail rate. But barring something that extreme, then the most likely vector for a bulk coir grow is the spawn. Not saying the only one but it’s definitely the most likely. If this all makes me some kind of political shill in the eyes of the ultra woke I don’t really give a shit. At the end of the day it’s not my grow so I don’t really care what someone does. -------------------- Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups My Favorite Grow Logs Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation The worst threads all have the same subjects Q & A.M.U. ![]()
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The more you know Registered: 03/11/20 Posts: 463 Last seen: 2 years, 4 months |
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Post deleted by Vylie
Reason for deletion: ... Edited by Vylie (10/15/20 05:22 PM)
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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Good shit Pasty. Just acknowledging the possibility of environmental contams hopefully could go a long way with some of these folks.
I'm obviously on a "side" here but I don't really see intransigence in mine because nobody in favor of considering any reality to this issue is saying dirty spawn isn't or can't be the problem, just that it can't be as simple as always one problem as certain people appear so sure of. I don't think being unwilling to agree that there's definitely only one cause of a contaminated bulk sub mix makes me intransigent. Maybe if they had more to back it up than tubs that didn't contam and I refused to acknowledge it, but as it is I'm simply asserting with good reason why we should be open to there being more than one way. Also to pull in a statement from the other thread: Quote: That's a hell of a lot more objective than people who are sure there's just the ONE cause that they say it is. It lends massive amounts of validation to the notion that we should be more concerned with *optional* living mold in our work areas than the *inevitable* ambient spores. If the speed and veracity of inoculating jars with living mycelium compared to spores is any clue, living airborne mycelium would be an exponentially greater threat than spores, especially if there really are hundreds of times as much. At a minimum it makes it CLEAR that people talking exclusively about "spore load" in regards to environmental contams were somewhat ignorant, including me. BTW that makes me think that some of smelling mold might be breathing in living mold myc
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Say hello to my little friend Registered: 09/15/12 Posts: 37,808 Loc: Canada |
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I’ve long said that live trich mycelium is a far greater danger than the spores. It’s why I speak out against cutting mold out, it’s far worse than just leaving it IMO.
-------------------- Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups My Favorite Grow Logs Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation The worst threads all have the same subjects Q & A.M.U. ![]()
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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As far as I knew previously the reasoning for that was about disturbing spores and kicking them into the air, but regardless, we certainly have that much more reason now.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Say hello to my little friend Registered: 09/15/12 Posts: 37,808 Loc: Canada |
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To put this more on topic I’m not against the idea of people running hepas, scrubbing their area out and generally being cleaner. It’s never going to hurt. But it’s not a cure all and if the root truly is the spawn and not; a bad batch of coir, dirty walls and carpet, a huge mound of trich in the room, etc, none of these little things are going to solve it.
Spawn production is the hardest part in the hobby, it’s why most commercial farms buy their spawn and not make it themselves. But when I see people constantly swearing that they did the hard part perfect and the reason for their failings is all the easy stuff, it makes me question how well they can apply control to their grow in order to narrow the vector. It sounds like corner cutting and excuses to me. Maybe I’m totally off base here. Perhaps the new account with a lot of reddit knowledge really has perfect spawn and a HEPA filter in the room and a little bleach is all that’s needed. But I wouldn’t bet money on that horse. -------------------- Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups My Favorite Grow Logs Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation The worst threads all have the same subjects Q & A.M.U. ![]()
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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You’re totally right of course, which is why I’ll clarify that none of us have said we actually believe environmental mold is surely OP’s problem and not the spawn, simply contesting a questionable absolute made by others frequently on the forum.
I went and looked at what Reddit had going for mushcult precisely one time lol. Also, I went and found the study Munchausen referenced. It’s pretty good shit so far, just from the abstract at least. Here it is for anyone interested. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm -------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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I'm an alien, I eat uranium. Registered: 03/04/20 Posts: 1,131 Last seen: 2 months, 17 days |
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How did political shilling come into this?
Also that's the third nickname I have been given in this thread but I will take starborn over some dismissive garbage like "starnoob". Like I said, theres no point in not addressing an environment as well, there is absolutely no harm and the benefits reach far beyond mushroom cultivation. People can either accept that coir can be susceptible to airborne contaminates or they can carry on believing this dumb meme that got horridly warped into the belief that it is invulnerable. You will NEVER achieve clean room levels of cleanliness but you can clean your home and air filtration with HEPA is nothing new. A well built home with a modern HVAC system should be filtering your air through your furnaces fan mode. Also anyone keeping a garbage can full of mold around should be given a large spoon and told to eat their fill. One thing if its just them but whole nother ball of wax if any other human being is going to be in that space. After reading some of what I have read here today especially about mycellium being aersolized I am working my tubs with a respirator now. I know already that harvesting a tub with a huge spore dump is hell on my lungs but I will be damned if I want to push my luck further.
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I will never not laugh at the memory of that person lol

