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GimpCollector
To Drunk To Taste The Chicken

Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 1,097
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
#26959568 - 09/28/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just when you think the mushies can't hurt you. It puts you in time out. I've gone coocoo for coco puffs on 2grms thinking I'll just take a half hit. I was running from shadow people for 3 hours.
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meowjinx
Stranger

Registered: 05/20/19
Posts: 492
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
#26959660 - 09/29/20 02:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
VolcanoCybe said: Recently tried some GT out of my first grow fresh. I had it the same day it was harvested. 10g wet so equivalent to about 1g. I was quite surprised at the potency and felt at was at least double what a normal 1g trip usually is. I dried out the rest of the batch same day in a dehydrator for 5-10 hours depending on the size.
The following weekend I had a 0.75g dose and it was definitely not that strong. Is there somewhere in the drying process that you lose a lot of potency? Is there any way to retain it more? Gonna be harvesting five tubs next week and would hope that I can lock in a better potency with these ones.
A) You had a smaller dose the 2nd time, if we are going by the assumption that dry weight is always equal to 10% of wet weight. But that's just a general ball-park estimate. There's no fixed percent-shrinkage. But in either case it would seem your dose was still smaller the second time
B) 5-10 hours may not be enough to really get the shroom cracker dry. I wouldn't do any less than 10 unless I was drying very, very small fruits. It may SEEM fully dried by appearance and even from touch, but if you leave it there a few more hours you will notice a difference. It will feel drier than what you previously thought was fully dried. So let's say that you had only 0.75g. IF you had it perfectly dry, then you'd have been taking a 7.5g fresh dose. BUT if it were not fully dry, then part of the 0.75 would be water weight. So in reality it would be less potent than a fully-dried shroom weighing 0.75. Make sense?
C) "Potency" is a perceptual thing unless you go through the trouble of extracting and measuring the active compounds. A trip can be affected by so many things, from what time of day you take it, if/what you've eaten that day, if you've taken any other meds/drugs before or during your trip
No one can say with absolute certainty whether dehydrating affects potency unless they were to run actual scientific trials with large sample sizes, controls, etc. extracting and measuring the amount of psilocybin with reliable, science-grade calibrated equipment. And their results would have to be independently reproducible by other parties in order to verify the results
Anecdotal evidence, no matter how consistently repeated, is not a substitute for rigorous empirical analysis. So I'm not gonna say it's impossible that dehydrating could affect potency, unless someone can point me to such studies
BUT, I will say, that my own anecdotal observations fall in line w/ the majority in this case. Fresh shrooms are definitely potent, I can't they'd be LESS potent than dried shrooms. But dried shrooms can be very potent too. Potent "enough", that I have no preference for tripping on fresh shrooms over dry shrooms. At least dry shrooms are more versatile. You can make teas, edibles, etc.If you feel nothing w/ dry shrooms then something else probably came into play, it's probs not the dehydrating
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,865
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
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As soon as you harvest a mushroom it's metabolism changes and we can speculate as to what effect that may have on the actives. So there's also the possibility that the potency of fresh mushrooms straight from the substrate could be different from fresh mushrooms that have been stored for a while.
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funky123
Pilzfreund


Registered: 08/27/17
Posts: 257
Loc: Austria
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Kizzle]
#26959933 - 09/29/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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How to dry cubes and preserve potency. Consensus is that they have to be as dry as possible. Open question is what drying temperature is optimal. Generally speaking:
Code:
1 / [drying temp] ~ [drying time]
Having a look at discussion of this matter on shroomery reveals that up until about 2016 it was pretty much consensus to dry at <= 60°C. I think it was bodhisatta who pushed for a new truth that the only thing that matters is to dry as fast as possible because Psilocybin will break down somewhere north of 150°C. My dehydrator drys at 80°C - I measured it myself.
Possibly though this is only half of the story. For example Psilocin will oxidize and turn inactive. I read in some thread someone hypothesizing that Psilocin on one hand will oxidize as long as there is water left in the mushroom - which would indicate that faster drying is to be desired. But otoh Psilocin will oxidize faster at higher temperature while water is still present - which might indicate that a lower temperature might be optimal for its preservation.
At the end of the day this question and how it is handled shows a systemic weakness of this forum - lack of scientific curiosity and approach. If I'm not mistaken there are several people active here who are academics in related fields or scientists by trade - so, I'm sure the required brain mass is available.
I'd love to understand more about it instead of just going from one consensus to the next without sound reasoning. Having said that - drying as fast as possible at reasonable temperatures (< 90°C) will yield potent crackers (just nobody knows if they could be a bit more or less potent at another temperature).
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Log for my 2nd Grow (with pix and chronology) To shut up GIFs in Firefox: Go to about:config and set 'image.animation_mode' to 'none'. Then restart Firefox. For any other browser (especially Chrome): Uninstall browser. Switch to Firefox. See above.
Edited by funky123 (09/29/20 08:56 AM)
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,394
Loc: where?
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: funky123]
#26960097 - 09/29/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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2016?
People were pushing high heat dehydration back in 05 when I started out
Search further back.
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VolcanoCybe
Stranger



Registered: 07/15/20
Posts: 100
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
#26960120 - 09/29/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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So using a higher heat for drying is best as it drys out the quickest rather than letting the mushie oxidize At a lower dehydrating temp. I’m going to experiment with temperature and see if there is any difference.
-------------------- VolcanoCybe
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,394
Loc: where?
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
#26960126 - 09/29/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lots of people already have but knock yourself out.
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funky123
Pilzfreund


Registered: 08/27/17
Posts: 257
Loc: Austria
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
#26960233 - 09/29/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
VolcanoCybe said: So using a higher heat for drying is best as it drys out the quickest rather than letting the mushie oxidize At a lower dehydrating temp. I’m going to experiment with temperature and see if there is any difference.
Quote:
mushboy said: Lots of people already have but knock yourself out.
I think assessing mushrooms by tripping is doomed to failure due to too many variables like set, setting, tolerance, varying concentration etc. On the other hand I don't think it's too hard given the required education and tools. I have no doubt that we have people on shroomery who could do it properly.
Another aspect I haven't really seen discussed here so far is dehydrator design with regard to efficiency of air flow. If the air flow is irregular and just causing turbulences or air pockets then a mushroom won't dry but instead just heat up. Which is the worst case scenario.
I'd also find it interesting to consider alternative drying methods like freeze drying. Freezing is supposedly not affecting Psiloc*in but will destroy the cell matrix and turn the mushroom into a pile of mud. So no idea if that could be pulled off.
Or how about placing the mushrooms into very cold water (~ 1°C) and mixing it, then strain/filter it and freeze it. If I'm not mistaken Psiloc*in are highly water soluble and the cooking is only done for the purpose of lysing the cells which would be done by the mixing. The low temp would slow down oxidation of Psilocin.
If I think about it. Maybe it's sufficient to freeze the mushrooms in water which will cause cells to break open. Then thaw to ~1% and mixing it for a while keeping it at that temperature. Then filter and refreeze.
But I'm talking out of my a§§ here - anybody here who actually knows something about (bio)chemistry? (@Pandemoon)
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Log for my 2nd Grow (with pix and chronology) To shut up GIFs in Firefox: Go to about:config and set 'image.animation_mode' to 'none'. Then restart Firefox. For any other browser (especially Chrome): Uninstall browser. Switch to Firefox. See above.
Edited by funky123 (09/29/20 12:12 PM)
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