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OfflineVolcanoCybe
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Losing potency in the drying process.
    #26957335 - 09/27/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Recently tried some GT out of my first grow fresh. I had it the same day it was harvested. 10g wet so equivalent to about 1g. I was quite surprised at the potency and felt at was at least double what a normal 1g trip usually is. I dried out the rest of the batch same day in a dehydrator for 5-10 hours depending on the size.

The following weekend I had a 0.75g dose and it was definitely not that strong. Is there somewhere in the drying process that you lose a lot of potency? Is there any way to retain it more? Gonna be harvesting five tubs next week and would hope that I can lock in a better potency with these ones.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
    #26957353 - 09/27/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Dry at 160f for 24 hours.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
    #26957359 - 09/27/20 11:54 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Drying fruits does not effect potency, even in a dehydrator. Sounds like you got varying potency in the fruits (genetics) or you were just having an off day :shrug:


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Tormato] * 1
    #26957431 - 09/27/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

To say that 10g wet is equal to 1g is putting too much validity in our “mush is about 90% water” guesstimate we use.  It’s just that.. a guess.  Fruits can have +/- that amount.  Sounds like your fruits may have had less water than that and .75gm isn’t very much.. that’s like 2 micro doses.  Probability didn’t go past your threshold.  I’d probably have to take 1.5gm of normal cubes to even notice any kind of buzz.

Faht


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: fahtster]
    #26957435 - 09/27/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
To say that 10g wet is equal to 1g is putting too much validity in our “mush is about 90% water” guesstimate we use.  It’s just that.. a guess.  Fruits can have +/- that amount.  Sounds like your fruits may have had less water than that and .75gm isn’t very much.. that’s like 2 micro doses.  Probability didn’t go past your threshold.  I’d probably have to take 1.5gm of normal cubes to even notice any kind of buzz.

Faht



This too....Totally agree Faht!


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OfflineBrotherDekatessera
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Tormato]
    #26957494 - 09/27/20 01:51 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

potency is lost in drying

keep doing the same experiement with every grow you will see it over and over.

everyone says its not so, but experience says it is


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: BrotherDekatessera] * 2
    #26957510 - 09/27/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BrotherDekatessera said:
potency is lost in drying

keep doing the same experiement with every grow you will see it over and over.

everyone says its not so, but experience says it is



Negligible if any bro.

Unless you're growing the same monoculture repeatedly through this experiment your findings would be null. :thumbdown:

Potency can vary from strain to strain of any given cube variety. Genetics :cheers:


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Tormato]
    #26957581 - 09/27/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I think I have to disagree. I always calculate the % of water lost during drying, which I give ample time for (24 hours), and it is consistently 92-93%. I usually take my dose fresh, and between 30 to 50 grams. Dried shrooms have a much less noticeable affect at the same dosage. There is credibility to the suspicion that wet shrooms will confer a stronger trip than dried at the same approximate dosage, at least to my experience.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Lemgrub]
    #26957609 - 09/27/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Imo/e dried fruits are just as strong as fresh but fresh hit different. A little sharper with the onset. Probably from the psilocin.

But either way.. if 4g dried doesnt give you a 40g fresh trip? Then eat more dry ones what's the big deal??:shrug:

Also from experience.. the moment you convince yourself that X dose of cubes will give Y experience is usually when you get your ass handed to yourself from what would be considered a 'low dose'. Shrooms have the tendency to surprise me juuuuust when I feel comfortable with them.


Edited by mushboy (09/27/20 03:35 PM)


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: BrotherDekatessera] * 1
    #26957718 - 09/27/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BrotherDekatessera said:
potency is lost in drying

keep doing the same experiement with every grow you will see it over and over.

everyone says its not so, but experience says it is



So *everyone* is wrong, but YOUR experience is the one infallible truth, right?


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OfflineVolcanoCybe
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Inocuole]
    #26957766 - 09/27/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Appreciate all the feedback guys. Just wanted to make sure I didn’t screw up the drying process. How is it possible to isolate potency in genetics? Taking a print of every mushroom, consuming them and determining that way which mushroom is potent and which weren’t as potent?

Also when do your neuro-receptors become clean again? Do you have to wait 30 days before your system is reset and your able to take a dose without previous doses having an affect on potency?


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
    #26957770 - 09/27/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

30day reset?

While you're at it dont swim until 45mim after eating:lol:

I shroom on the reg. Are you looking for life defining moments or fun times? Sometimes it sounds like people want epiphanies every time they dose. Ime that's a risky path to travel.


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OfflineFlufferNutter
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
    #26957804 - 09/27/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Potency, when figured as a total amount of actives contained, is most definitely lost during the drying process, despite method and length of time drying

Psilocin is not very stable and does not survive the process well. There are other compounds, whose actions are as of yet undetermined, that do not survive drying, period.

  When taken as a whole, fresh off the block, you will definitely experience a more "full" effect that's hard to quantify,  but is def real. Its unknown how all of the various compounds interact with one another, especially the psilo compounds with all of the ones that dont make it past fresh picked, so it's safe to assume a dose of fresh mush will offer something dry cannot, and just as true for the reverse.

The 10:1 dosing is, I agree, a ballpark guess, but close enough to get a feel for a particular flush.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: FlufferNutter]
    #26957817 - 09/27/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FlufferNutter said:
Potency, when figured as a total amount of actives contained, is most definitely lost during the drying process, despite method and length of time drying




Sure but, Ive been growing since my reg date and I've never dried any mushrooms and then found that I felt entitled to bitch about the potency.  They always kick my ass.  A half gram of what I've got right now has been fucking up all my friends. :shrug:


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: FlufferNutter]
    #26957821 - 09/27/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Usually you can get away with tripping once or twice a week if you want to.


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OfflineFlufferNutter
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Inocuole]
    #26957831 - 09/27/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

FlufferNutter said:
Potency, when figured as a total amount of actives contained, is most definitely lost during the drying process, despite method and length of time drying




Sure but, Ive been growing since my reg date and I've never dried any mushrooms and then found that I felt entitled to bitch about the potency.  They always kick my ass.  A half gram of what I've got right now has been fucking up all my friends. :shrug:




Most definitely.  I'm not talking about mush getting weak, I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more on the plate with a meal of fresh than dry. That's why there's that extra whatever with the fresh.

Experiences are subjective, of course, and the science is out on exactly what works with what,but that's not to say dried fruits are weak. Not in the least bit.

Sorry if I was being confusing. I know I can be sometimes.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
    #26957845 - 09/27/20 06:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
30day reset?

While you're at it dont swim until 45mim after eating:lol:

I shroom on the reg. Are you looking for life defining moments or fun times? Sometimes it sounds like people want epiphanies every time they dose. Ime that's a risky path to travel.




I am on the regular for sure and do them for fun times and crazy eye opening shit. I am just talking in terms of isolating potent genetics. I would presume your neuro-receptors need to be clean for it to be a controlled experiment.

I personally feel fresh mushrooms have a higher potency. And interestingly enough, no gut rot with fresh. I've also heard that if you don't dry the mushrooms out in the first day of harvesting they lose potency due to moisture degradation of the psilocin.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
    #26957981 - 09/27/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

if your doing high doses, i found dry to be stronger than fresh.  If doing low doses, fresh is always stronger than dry. i run monocultures.  Your body can only handle so much chitin.


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OfflineBernard
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Lemgrub]
    #26957986 - 09/27/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lemgrub said:
I always calculate the % of water lost during drying, which I give ample time for (24 hours), and it is consistently 92-93%.




I agree.  I usually find that there is more than just 90% water.


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OfflineBrotherDekatessera
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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Lemgrub]
    #26958025 - 09/27/20 09:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lemgrub said:
I think I have to disagree. I always calculate the % of water lost during drying, which I give ample time for (24 hours), and it is consistently 92-93%. I usually take my dose fresh, and between 30 to 50 grams. Dried shrooms have a much less noticeable affect at the same dosage. There is credibility to the suspicion that wet shrooms will confer a stronger trip than dried at the same approximate dosage, at least to my experience.



Quote:

Lemgrub said:
I think I have to disagree. I always calculate the % of water lost during drying, which I give ample time for (24 hours), and it is consistently 92-93%. I usually take my dose fresh, and between 30 to 50 grams. Dried shrooms have a much less noticeable affect at the same dosage. There is credibility to the suspicion that wet shrooms will confer a stronger trip than dried at the same approximate dosage, at least to my experience.





Genetics are irrelevant.

if mushrooms are consistently more potent wet than dry, the genetics isnt going to change that.

potency might be different between genetics but that has no relevance to the same genetics being more potent wet, and then weaker dried... the genetics dont change in the drying process homie


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
    #26959568 - 09/28/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Just when you think the mushies can't hurt you. It puts you in time out. I've gone coocoo for coco puffs on 2grms thinking I'll just take a half hit. I was running from shadow people for 3 hours.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
    #26959660 - 09/29/20 02:31 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

VolcanoCybe said:
Recently tried some GT out of my first grow fresh. I had it the same day it was harvested. 10g wet so equivalent to about 1g. I was quite surprised at the potency and felt at was at least double what a normal 1g trip usually is. I dried out the rest of the batch same day in a dehydrator for 5-10 hours depending on the size.

The following weekend I had a 0.75g dose and it was definitely not that strong. Is there somewhere in the drying process that you lose a lot of potency? Is there any way to retain it more? Gonna be harvesting five tubs next week and would hope that I can lock in a better potency with these ones.




A) You had a smaller dose the 2nd time, if we are going by the assumption that dry weight is always equal to 10% of wet weight. But that's just a general ball-park estimate. There's no fixed percent-shrinkage. But in either case it would seem your dose was still smaller the second time

B) 5-10 hours may not be enough to really get the shroom cracker dry. I wouldn't do any less than 10 unless I was drying very, very small fruits. It may SEEM fully  dried by appearance and even from touch, but if you leave it there a few more hours you will notice a difference. It will feel drier than what you previously thought was fully dried. So let's say that you had only 0.75g. IF you had it perfectly dry, then you'd have been taking a 7.5g fresh dose. BUT if it were not fully dry, then part of the 0.75 would be water weight. So in reality it would be less potent than a fully-dried shroom weighing 0.75. Make sense?

C) "Potency" is a perceptual thing unless you go through the trouble of extracting and measuring the active compounds. A trip can be affected by so many things, from what time of day you take it, if/what you've eaten that day, if you've taken any other meds/drugs before or during your trip


No one can say with absolute certainty whether dehydrating affects potency unless they were to run actual scientific trials with large sample sizes, controls, etc. extracting and measuring the amount of psilocybin with reliable, science-grade calibrated equipment. And their results would have to be independently reproducible by other parties in order to verify the results

Anecdotal evidence, no matter how consistently repeated, is not a substitute for rigorous empirical analysis. So I'm not gonna say it's impossible that dehydrating could affect potency, unless someone can point me to such studies

BUT, I will say, that my own anecdotal observations fall in line w/ the majority in this case. Fresh shrooms are definitely potent, I can't they'd be LESS potent than dried shrooms. But dried shrooms can be very potent too. Potent "enough", that I have no preference for tripping on fresh shrooms over dry shrooms. At least dry shrooms are more versatile. You can make teas, edibles, etc.If you feel nothing w/ dry shrooms then something else probably came into play, it's probs not the dehydrating


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: BrotherDekatessera]
    #26959729 - 09/29/20 04:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

As soon as you harvest a mushroom it's metabolism changes and we can speculate as to what effect that may have on the actives. So there's also the possibility that the potency of fresh mushrooms straight from the substrate could be different from fresh mushrooms that have been stored for a while.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: Kizzle]
    #26959933 - 09/29/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

How to dry cubes and preserve potency. Consensus is that they have to be as dry as possible. Open question is what drying temperature is optimal. Generally speaking:

Code:
1 / [drying temp] ~ [drying time]



Having a look at discussion of this matter on shroomery reveals that up until about 2016 it was pretty much consensus to dry at <= 60°C. I think it was bodhisatta who pushed for a new truth that the only thing that matters is to dry as fast as possible because Psilocybin will break down somewhere north of 150°C. My dehydrator drys at 80°C - I measured it myself.

Possibly though this is only half of the story. For example Psilocin will oxidize and turn inactive. I read in some thread someone hypothesizing that Psilocin on one hand will oxidize as long as there is water left in the mushroom - which would indicate that faster drying is to be desired. But otoh Psilocin will oxidize faster at higher temperature while water is still present - which might indicate that a lower temperature might be optimal for its preservation.

At the end of the day this question and how it is handled shows a systemic weakness of this forum - lack of scientific curiosity and approach. If I'm not mistaken there are several people active here who are academics in related fields or scientists by trade - so, I'm sure the required brain mass is available.

I'd love to understand more about it instead of just going from one consensus to the next without sound reasoning. Having said that - drying as fast as possible at reasonable temperatures (< 90°C) will yield potent crackers (just nobody knows if they could be a bit more or less potent at another temperature).


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Edited by funky123 (09/29/20 08:56 AM)


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: funky123]
    #26960097 - 09/29/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

2016?

People were pushing high heat dehydration back in 05 when I started out:shrug:

Search further back.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
    #26960120 - 09/29/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

So using a higher heat for drying is best as it drys out the quickest rather than letting the mushie  oxidize At a lower dehydrating temp. I’m going to experiment with temperature and see if there is any difference.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: VolcanoCybe]
    #26960126 - 09/29/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Lots of people already have but knock yourself out.


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Re: Losing potency in the drying process. [Re: mushboy]
    #26960233 - 09/29/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

VolcanoCybe said:
So using a higher heat for drying is best as it drys out the quickest rather than letting the mushie  oxidize At a lower dehydrating temp. I’m going to experiment with temperature and see if there is any difference.




Quote:

mushboy said:
Lots of people already have but knock yourself out.




I think assessing mushrooms by tripping is doomed to failure due to too many variables like set, setting, tolerance, varying concentration etc. On the other hand I don't think it's too hard given the required education and tools. I have no doubt that we have people on shroomery who could do it properly.

Another aspect I haven't really seen discussed here so far is dehydrator design with regard to efficiency of air flow. If the air flow is irregular and just causing turbulences or air pockets then a mushroom won't dry but instead just heat up. Which is the worst case scenario.

I'd also find it interesting to consider alternative drying methods like freeze drying. Freezing is supposedly not affecting Psiloc*in but will destroy the cell matrix and turn the mushroom into a pile of mud. So no idea if that could be pulled off.

Or how about placing the mushrooms into very cold water (~ 1°C) and mixing it, then strain/filter it and freeze it. If I'm not mistaken Psiloc*in are highly water soluble and the cooking is only done for the purpose of lysing the cells which would be done by the mixing. The low temp would slow down oxidation of Psilocin.

If I think about it. Maybe it's sufficient to freeze the mushrooms in water which will cause cells to break open. Then thaw to ~1% and mixing it for a while keeping it at that temperature. Then filter and refreeze.

But I'm talking out of my a§§ here - anybody here who actually knows something about (bio)chemistry? (@Pandemoon)


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Edited by funky123 (09/29/20 12:12 PM)


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