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Moses_Davidson
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Spirituality vs. Halucinating
#26954688 - 09/25/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Spirituality 1. May or may not include an emotional/sensory experience. 2. May or may not include other spiritual beings. 3. Is not caused by psychoactive chemicals.
Halucination 1. Usually involves an emotional/sensory experience. 2. May or may not include beings which come from inside your mind. 3. May or may not require psychoactive chemicals. 4. May or may not involve spirituality.
I really don't think there is anything spiritual about tripping. Seems to me to be nothing but a waking dream state, with induced stuff that comes from the mind. I think anything that is spiritual there would have been there anyways with or without the hallucinogen.
But maybe I am all wrong. I'm sure some of you have pondered this for many more years than I have. I am anxious to hear some thoughts from those older and more experienced than me.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
Edited by Moses_Davidson (09/25/20 03:37 PM)
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Mu!
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Yellow Pants


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If the Spiritual is something that exists outside the personality then perhaps the hallucinogenic experience is something that may jar the personality loose from conditioning in order to more clearly perceive the Spirit.
Or maybe Spirit is something immediate.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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I think the main component of what you are asking is: Can hallucinogens produce or reveal genuine spiritual phenomena? I would say in my experience that, despite the recreational aspects and meaninglessly hallucinatory effects of certain substances, certain substances can engage one in objective phenomena that are normally hidden in a conventional waking, sober state. In other words, imo psychedelics can show you things that are really there, that are normally hidden. I would say that this is on the rarer side, and requires a certain type of person.
As far as spirituality, psychs can lead to spiritual states, but authentic spirituality is in no way dependent upon them. I agree with you that 99% of tripping does not involve meaningful spirituality. Of course, we all know that most tripping is done for recreation, by most people.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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lostintimenspc
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What about manifesting psychoactives or at least the signature cascade in the brain? You can ask the universe. We are gods.
-------------------- LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life' Your life, your call.
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The Blind Ass
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We are the children of L’une.
(*ahem*...Buster, that’s your cue...)
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:.
1) I would say that this is on the rarer side, and requires a certain type of person. Most of all....a brave, skillful, & discerning one. SpiZa.
2) As far as spirituality, psychs can lead to spiritual states, but authentic spirituality is in no way dependent upon them. I agree with you that 99% of tripping does not involve meaningful spirituality. Of course, we all know that most tripping is done for recreation, by most people.
1) Absolutely. That’s the one to be. Lots of value there, for self & all others (potentially).
2) See # 1....+
The spiritual is the effulgence of the material. And sometimes, the spiritual sheds light on the nature of the material, and, the material sheds light on the nature of the spiritual. I doubt any light worthy of its own radiance, or any material worthy of its own matter would be shed on nature without both the spiritual & material really being simultaneously seemingly separate -yet- unified & non-dual in nature. The spiritual & material shedding light onto themselves and each other is because they share the same root - we experience this root as our actual life’s unfolding in each & every moment. Moment by moment, atom by atom, inch by inch.
Not separate. Not really. Like as if a clear light is always already shining forth on its own, some just instantly recognize it from the get go as primordial. And others need the psychedelic experience to help forcefully or gently shake their brain-forest’s obviousness tree until somebody or something or other realizes it is awake & aware of what’s happening as also allowing what’s happening to be aware.
We are a hallucinatory species. We are a psychedelic animal. We are entheogenic mammals.
Mind, and all under its purview or bearing its mark is like a hallucination. Thinking. Perceptions. The Sense Media. Memory. Feelings. Impulses. Consciousness. All nonexistent in the so called “objective world”- yet all still so..apparent! At least, to the one who knows it. Non-existant, but, perceptible - like a a mirage.
Like last nights dream. Like a psychedelic dream experience. Like our days daydreams. Like the memory of our entire life up till now - all are like a reflection without a front or back. Like a clear & empty void confronting its own nature & reality by the like’s of a fancy magical mirror (ie via hallucinations/dreams/psychs/or “thegoodoldfashionedway”).
TLDR- being hallucinatory is part of our nature. Any one can experience hallucination induced by psychedelics - but not everyone always remembers to learn from & know each hallucinatory experience like the “magic” mirror that it can be (and more). A mirror in, through, & by which oneself can actually know how one really perceives & believes of what we call the “spiritual“ & the “material” of reality. Blahdy blahdy blah! .
......
freely
Edited by The Blind Ass (09/25/20 10:05 PM)
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Mu!
Fair enough. But hey I just had a long conversation with some trees who seemed to know everything and I am still scratching my head. I had been hoping for a great spiritual experience but after some reflection I don't think that tree really knew what it was talking about, and was, in fact, (wait for it)... a hallucination and nothing more. In fact, even after a handful "beyond the tunnel breakthroughs" and all sorts of odd experiences, I still can't really say I've had one single experience that I would have to classify as real.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in God, angels, demons, aliens, Elvis... I am a believer... and I have recently encountered all sorts of talking entities, but I have never seen any of them for real and somehow don't think that my new truffle-inclusive diet somehow empowered me to summon God etc.
But go easy on me here I am still the new kid trying to figure all of this out.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Quote:
The Blind Ass said:
We are a hallucinatory species. We are the psychedelic animal. We are entheogenic.
Mind, and all under its purview or bearing its mark is like a hallucination. Thinking. Perceptions. The Sense Media. Memory. Feelings. Impulses. Consciousness. All nonexistent in the so called “objective world”- yet all still so..apparent! At least, to the one who knows it. Non-existant, but, perceptible - like a a mirage.
Alright, I agree we are all spiritual beings having a temporary human experience. And the stage we view in the mind is,... well... all in the mind.
But that aside, DMT provides one kind of trip, Psilocybin another, LSA another,... so does each summon a different spiritual world? Or are they merely part of the temporary physical human experience living in a body that is affected by chemical matter?
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I think the main component of what you are asking is: Can hallucinogens produce or reveal genuine spiritual phenomena?
Yes. And hey, I am open to it. Maybe even to my detriment.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
Edited by Moses_Davidson (09/25/20 08:13 PM)
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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What exactly are you trying to achieve here?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (09/25/20 10:52 PM)
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Here's a question, OP: why parse the two terms in the first place?
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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One of my own spiritual experiences was when I had a heroic dose of psilocybin where I eventually thought trees were rivers from their top branches flowing down into the earth, every tree was like a river to me and it drew me in. Eventually I realised I was the source of the desire that painted trees as flowing rivers.
My other was sober at notredam church in France, I went there and stood by some candles, I honestly prayed to just the idea of god, I relinquished my earthly responsibilities for a moment and soon felt naked, I had no hold on my life. I took back my responsibility and felt better.
I prayed away my responsibility and regretted the decision.
Plus there are some studies suggesting similarities between religious and psychedelic experiences.
Quote:
There are some limitations to note: the study participants were self-reporting on their experiences, which can lead to inaccuracies and misremembering. What's more, in some cases the experiences were quite some time ago.
Nevertheless, the researchers suggest that their findings are enough to show links between having a mystical or religious experience on psychedelic drugs, and that experience turning out to be positive in the long term – and that gives medical professionals something to work with in future treatments too.
"Providing a setting conducive to such experiences, whether described as mystical, peak, or emotional breakthrough, is also likely to be of benefit in clinical applications of psychedelics," say the researchers in their published paper.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/psychedelic-experiences-share-many-features-with-religious-experiences/amp
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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the spiritual is your affinity and intent to improve and transcend, not what you see, what you take or whom you follow.
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: What exactly are you trying to achieve here?
Solicitation of input from others to make sense of experiences.
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Here's a question, OP: why parse the two terms in the first place?
In another context, had a Greek professor who liked to say, "If you can't parse it, you don't understand it." In my case, the reverse-- I admittedly don't understand it, and am trying to get input from others to help me do so. In the same way, I see a very clear separation of religion and spirituality. One can be culturally religious with yet empty with no spirituality whatsoever.
I figured why struggle through trying to come up with a mediocre explanation in my mind when someone else with more experience has probably already done a better job of it. I've already read several profound comments here that will give me plenty to ponder, but am still eager to hear any other thoughts on differentiating or reconciling the two concepts.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26955744 - 09/26/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: the spiritual is your affinity and intent to improve and transcend, not what you see, what you take or whom you follow.
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: If the Spiritual is something that exists outside.....
You might agree that it refers to a presence outside the scope of the ordinary that calls it forth in a way like what you are alluding to in terms of improvement and transcendence.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26955755 - 09/26/20 08:50 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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as in supramundane, sure, why not? ecstasy and hallucination, however are also supramundane, so the topic has a bit of a circular nature.
if it is outside of you it is probably not spiritual but it could be a good meal or a mate, or a reminder to seek within.
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Yellow Pants


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Quote:
redgreenvines said: as in supramundane, sure, why not? ecstasy and hallucination, however are also supramundane, so the topic has a bit of a circular nature.
if it is outside of you it is probably not spiritual but it could be a good meal or a mate, or a reminder to seek within.
I don't mean outside literally but to go back to the idea of awareness as something minimal in our nature. The possibility that outside our ordinary conscious experience the Spiritual being something that calls our conscious forth in ways that are on its own terms. So "supramundane" is good and well I guess imo.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26955938 - 09/26/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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it is about understanding
think about understanding everything as it is
bhante called it finding out what it all means
everything is about truth
everything that matters
it is about good and bad if there is bad and safety and understanding because of goodness
how are things supposed to be?
and caring about the ideal so we gravitate towards it in our lives on different fields
action attitude way of being psychological components and faculties
if you care about everything it will improve
all fields will improve
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26956178 - 09/26/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26956198 - 09/26/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: it is about understanding
think about understanding everything as it is
bhante called it finding out what it all means
everything is about truth
everything that matters
it is about good and bad if there is bad and safety and understanding because of goodness
how are things supposed to be?
and caring about the ideal so we gravitate towards it in our lives on different fields
action attitude way of being psychological components and faculties
if you care about everything it will improve
all fields will improve
one of the first things I learned in grade 12 was to use as few words as possible to say what you mean.
do you mean "if you care about everything it will improve" is it like "if you take care of things they will be well" ??
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Omega
No Face

Registered: 09/25/20
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: Spirituality 1. May or may not include an emotional/sensory experience. 2. May or may not include other spiritual beings. 3. Is not caused by psychoactive chemicals.
Hallucination 1. Usually involves an emotional/sensory experience. 2. May or may not include beings which come from inside your mind. 3. May or may not require psychoactive chemicals. 4. May or may not involve spirituality.
I really don't think there is anything spiritual about tripping. Seems to me to be nothing but a waking dream state, with induced stuff that comes from the mind. I think anything that is spiritual there would have been there anyways with or without the hallucinogen.
But maybe I am all wrong. I'm sure some of you have pondered this for many more years than I have. I am anxious to hear some thoughts from those older and more experienced than me.
Spirituality is always there with or without hallucinogens. for everyone, always. some people just dont allow them selves to open up to it. I feel like Hallucinogens just act as a catalyst for our minds to realize nothing is as it seems and makes us more susceptible to breakthroughs or spiritual awakenings.
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Omega]
#26956790 - 09/26/20 10:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: one of the first things I learned in grade 12 was to use as few words as possible to say what you mean.
IKR? Tru dat. Errr,... Srry. Srsly tho,...
If the spiritual experience is your affinity and intent to grow and transcend, then ecstasy and hallucination may be a part of the growth, and are therefore as spiritual as said affinity and intent.
If the spiritual experience is supermundane, and if super mundane is beyond the scope of the laws of nature (the laws of quantum physics, Newtonian physics, laws of general & specific relativity, etc.) it would seem to me that ecstasy or hallucination are fully within the scope of the laws of nature, and therefore not intrinsically spiritual unless something supermundane is brought to the experience. Which, most of the time might not be the case for most people tripping if they are just seeking recreation.
I can see where sex and romance are correlated, similar, and distinct from each other. Likewise I can see where spirituality and hallucinating are correlated etc.
Am I getting that right?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
Edited by Moses_Davidson (09/26/20 10:11 PM)
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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no it means that when you care about something it is like you watch over there
watch yourelf over there
to it
but I agree that taking care of things makes it well
and that one gets it worse from dying
I was just trying to say that you can have a way of being, programming, where some of you is a grid and you are in a grid and it is so that it is like you move your finger attracting it it comes because you are that like who you are tomorrow is a result of who you are today
when you are interested in it and things the natural develpment and occurence after having it as part of your personality is that it comes into your life
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Fredinando, I still see more words here than I can digest grammatically - partly due to your Danish primary language. possibly also if your meaning changes from the beginning to the end of each sentence.
Quote:
Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: one of the first things I learned in grade 12 was to use as few words as possible to say what you mean.
IKR? Tru dat. Errr,... Srry. Srsly tho,...
If the spiritual experience is your affinity and intent to grow and transcend, then ecstasy and hallucination may be a part of the growth, and are therefore as spiritual as said affinity and intent.
You might wish that your intent at the start of an experience is what makes all that follows spiritual, and this is not possible, transcending occurs as a kind of sustained motive. this can explain why masters are found to have serious character flaws in spite of their spiritual "achievements". eg. sometimes they indulge in sex without normative moral observance (pedophilia,etc.).
good deeds after being done are done, and one will need to continue supporting them (as a gardener tends the garden), otherwise one may go Disney style and use plastic flowers and inflated plastic goodness which is longer lasting but mosly devoid of spirit even if full of captured prana.
Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: If the spiritual experience is supermundane, and if super mundane is beyond the scope of the laws of nature (the laws of quantum physics, Newtonian physics, laws of general & specific relativity, etc.) it would seem to me that ecstasy or hallucination are fully within the scope of the laws of nature, and therefore not intrinsically spiritual unless something supermundane is brought to the experience. Which, most of the time might not be the case for most people tripping if they are just seeking recreation.
I can see where sex and romance are correlated, similar, and distinct from each other. Likewise I can see where spirituality and hallucinating are correlated etc.
Am I getting that right?
By this measure (if can be mapped to physics and chemistry then not spiritual) nothing is spiritual. I would declare that physics and chemistry and biology and geography are all functional domains in which to seek and develop spirituality. real is more real than not real.
I would point out the difference between symphonic music (spiritual at least 50% of the time, and more if you are inclined) to the roar of a jet plane and the buzzing of tinnitus (not spiritual more than 95%).
the arrangements of uplifting rhythms, combinations, and sequences - the very idea that people are considerate enough to prepare and perform such a beautiful thing are intrinsically spiritual, while haphazard machines give cacophony unless artfully composed.
in a word (three words maybe) what is "not haphazardly arranged" is likely to be spiritual, but then, politics will screw that one up big time, as we have observed. eg. TRUMPISM is viewed to not be haphazardly composed - though to most of us it is pure cacophony.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
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hallucinatory experiences are largely shaped by culture. if you grow up in a culture that values spiritual experiences, and you see a ghost, more reality will be attributed to the ghostly image versus someone who grows up in a culture that is materialistic and scientifically oriented. an experience can make its own mold, and one shouldn't let expectations of what something is or is not, define how that perception is assimilated.
are hallucinations just a way for the human spirit to creatively interact with material existence?
do hallucinations allow for the realization of a richer experience of earth?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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it is richer in the moment when on psychedelic, but cannot always be richer.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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it is like smiling at something and leaning into it and that way it comes
I highly recommend it
it is like you are lying and turn towards the desired thing and lean into it and
turn you both turn left and right and you look towards it
and you want it/look to it/appreciate it
it is like a practice of drawing in all good fish
you have to have so open minded that you see everything and think of everything as hit is
that way when you don't anti-prefer everything in total
and like appreciate it see the beauty in it
you will attract the big fish
because who you are tomorrow is a result of who you are today
so one of the best things is to see everything have it all in your mind be open minded your head is open as when you experience something you see all of it the good and the bad and you think of it as it is
how did buddha get there?
surely when you have a mind that sees it all in reality you will get there because some territory is preferably over other and you'll do good you'll do better it chooses the good terriroty over the other
like this is happens
how can it be different
when the world is that way and the truth is that way how could de best not come
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984550 - 10/14/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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pretty good summation so far, keep studying and learning.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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good point I will do that while you guys do psychedelics...
damn needing a break
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984575 - 10/14/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have gotten to the point of wanting to do pschedelics...
but I can't as in it would be negative 
it happens but I will get past it
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984578 - 10/14/20 06:51 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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it's extra to all the stuff in your garden already
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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at least studying will keep me getting things done
when done all the time (getting things done) or almost all the time this is the best way to live one's life
like the buddhism stuff
the money stuff
the weeds stuff
so many fields can be accomplished with this (getting things done all the time or almost all the time)
I mean even if there are critique points in your life and ... you know when it's the best way to live one's life there can be so many things but I still live life in the best way so it's like all those bad things it's like they are not there and I don't get things done as much down to 2 hours a day or nothing like they will be equally good or I'm still doing good
so if I have financial issues and many weeds in my garden and things like this I can still live life in a good way that is like having no bad things in my life and getting a little done every day
because it is that good
and preferable
and important
if it's except two hours a day then you hit the sweet spot a sweet spot of how to live life
if it's 4 then not that much worse
lower than this we don't hit the mark of living life in the best way
but if one goes less than except 6 hours then it is important to increase
and increase to all the time or almost all the time
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984922 - 10/14/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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it's like traction or connection. in fact everything is about connection.
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karri0n
Mind Traveller



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I want to just put out there that "Hallucination" is a medical term just meaning to perceive something that isn't there, and in regard to the psychedelic state is frequently more of a "side effect".
Psychedelics may be referred to as hallucinogens but that's a relic of the "dark ages".
I agree with your premise and others' premise in this thread.
I feel that the psychedelic state, just like other altered states and forms of trance such as meditation, near-death experience, intensely painful rituals to introduce altered state, sensory deprivation, etc. Can put the mind in a state where spirituality is much more accessible.
I also truly believe that there are people who simply aren't very spiritual and even on a psychedelic substance won't suddenly become so.
I think more likely is that how "connected with spirit" someone is is on a bell curve just like every other trait in humans.
Most people aren't Christian JUST because of indoctrination. Many have real spiritual experiences in church and with their god, and don't know any paths to spirit other than what they have been taught by the church.
Some people haven't touched a drug in their life and have found their place is not in the material world, so they go somewhere and pray or meditate for the majority of their lives.
A lot of people will be catapulted into that mode of existence when they have a reality-breaking trip. A lot of others may simply open up to spirit enough to hear some wisdom from the universe for the first time when they have a lower level trip. Still others attain spiritual states from just cannabis but won't be spiritual at all otherwise.
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Panaeolus Bisporus
Edited by karri0n (10/16/20 02:46 PM)
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