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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Spirituality vs. Halucinating
    #26954688 - 09/25/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Spirituality
1. May or may not include an emotional/sensory experience.
2. May or may not include other spiritual beings.
3. Is not caused by psychoactive chemicals.


Halucination
1. Usually involves an emotional/sensory experience.
2. May or may not include beings which come from inside your mind.
3. May or may not require psychoactive chemicals.
4. May or may not involve spirituality.

I really don't think there is anything spiritual about tripping. Seems to me to be nothing but a waking dream state, with induced stuff that comes from the mind. I think anything that is spiritual there would have been there anyways with or without the hallucinogen.

But maybe I am all wrong. I'm sure some of you have pondered this for many more years than I have. I am anxious to hear some thoughts from those older and more experienced than me.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


Edited by Moses_Davidson (09/25/20 03:37 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26954750 - 09/25/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Mu!



--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26954789 - 09/25/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If the Spiritual is something that exists outside the personality then perhaps the hallucinogenic experience is something that may jar the personality loose from conditioning in order to more clearly perceive the Spirit. 

Or maybe Spirit is something immediate.  :shrug:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26954837 - 09/25/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think the main component of what you are asking is: Can hallucinogens produce or reveal genuine spiritual phenomena? I would say in my experience that, despite the recreational aspects and meaninglessly hallucinatory effects of certain substances, certain substances can engage one in objective phenomena that are normally hidden in a conventional waking, sober state. In other words, imo psychedelics can show you things that are really there, that are normally hidden. I would say that this is on the rarer side, and requires a certain type of person.

As far as spirituality, psychs can lead to spiritual states, but authentic spirituality is in no way dependent upon them. I agree with you that 99% of tripping does not involve meaningful spirituality. Of course, we all know that most tripping is done for recreation, by most people.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26954858 - 09/25/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What about manifesting psychoactives or at least the signature cascade in the brain? You can ask the universe. We are gods.


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LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26954884 - 09/25/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

We are the children of L’une.

(*ahem*...Buster, that’s your cue...)


--------------------
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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26954943 - 09/25/20 07:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:.

1) I would say that this is on the rarer side, and requires a certain type of person.  Most of all....a brave, skillful, & discerning one.  SpiZa.

2) As far as spirituality, psychs can lead to spiritual states, but authentic spirituality is in no way dependent upon them. I agree with you that 99% of tripping does not involve meaningful spirituality. Of course, we all know that most tripping is done for recreation, by most people.




1) Absolutely.  That’s the one to be.  Lots of value there, for self & all others (potentially).

2) See # 1....+

The spiritual is the effulgence of the material.  And sometimes, the spiritual sheds light on the nature of the material, and, the material sheds light on the nature of the spiritual. I doubt any light worthy of its own radiance, or any material worthy of its own matter would be shed on nature without both the spiritual & material really being simultaneously seemingly separate -yet- unified & non-dual in nature.  The spiritual & material shedding light onto themselves and each other is because they share the same root - we experience this root as our actual life’s unfolding in each & every moment.  Moment by moment, atom by atom, inch by inch.

Not separate.  Not really.  Like as if a clear light is always already shining forth on its own, some just instantly recognize it from the get go as primordial.  And others need the psychedelic experience to help forcefully or gently shake their brain-forest’s obviousness tree until somebody or something or other realizes it is awake & aware of what’s happening as also allowing what’s happening to be aware.

We are a hallucinatory species.  We are a psychedelic animal.  We are entheogenic mammals.

Mind, and all under its purview or bearing its mark is like a hallucination.  Thinking.  Perceptions.  The Sense Media.  Memory.  Feelings.  Impulses.  Consciousness.  All nonexistent in the so called “objective world”- yet all still so..apparent! At least, to the one who knows it.  Non-existant, but, perceptible - like a a mirage.

Like last nights dream.  Like a psychedelic dream experience.  Like our days daydreams.  Like the memory of our entire life up till now - all are  like a reflection without a front or back.  Like a clear & empty void confronting its own nature & reality by the like’s of a fancy magical mirror (ie via hallucinations/dreams/psychs/or “thegoodoldfashionedway”).


TLDR- being hallucinatory is part of our nature.  Any one can experience hallucination induced by psychedelics - but not everyone always remembers to learn from & know each hallucinatory experience like the “magic” mirror that it can be (and more).  A mirror in, through, & by which oneself can actually know how one really perceives & believes of what we call the “spiritual“ & the “material” of reality.
  Blahdy blahdy blah!
.

......

    freely

          :flyhigh: :yinyang:  :leaving:



Edited by The Blind Ass (09/25/20 10:05 PM)


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26955038 - 09/25/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Mu!





Fair enough. But hey I just had a long conversation with some trees who seemed to know everything and I am still scratching my head. I had been hoping for a great spiritual experience but after some reflection I don't think that tree really knew what it was talking about, and was, in fact, (wait for it)...  a hallucination and nothing more. In fact, even after a handful "beyond the tunnel breakthroughs" and all sorts of odd experiences, I still can't really say I've had one single experience that I would have to classify as real.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in God, angels, demons, aliens, Elvis... I am a believer... and I have recently encountered all sorts of talking entities, but I have never seen any of them for real and somehow don't think that my new truffle-inclusive diet somehow empowered me to summon God etc.

But go easy on me here I am still the new kid trying to figure all of this out.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26955051 - 09/25/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:

We are a hallucinatory species.  We are the psychedelic animal.  We are entheogenic.

Mind, and all under its purview or bearing its mark is like a hallucination.  Thinking.  Perceptions.  The Sense Media.  Memory.  Feelings.  Impulses.  Consciousness.  All nonexistent in the so called “objective world”- yet all still so..apparent! At least, to the one who knows it.  Non-existant, but, perceptible - like a a mirage.






Alright, I agree we are all spiritual beings having a temporary human experience. And the stage we view in the mind is,... well... all in the mind.

But that aside, DMT provides one kind of trip, Psilocybin another, LSA another,... so does each summon a different spiritual world? Or are they merely part of the temporary physical human experience living in a body that is affected by chemical matter?

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think the main component of what you are asking is: Can hallucinogens produce or reveal genuine spiritual phenomena?




Yes. And hey, I am open to it. Maybe even to my detriment.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


Edited by Moses_Davidson (09/25/20 08:13 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955193 - 09/25/20 10:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What exactly are you trying to achieve here?


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (09/25/20 10:52 PM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955399 - 09/26/20 01:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Here's a question, OP: why parse the two terms in the first place?


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955526 - 09/26/20 03:46 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

One of my own spiritual experiences was when I had a heroic dose of psilocybin where I eventually thought trees were rivers from their top branches flowing down into the earth, every tree was like a river to me and it drew me in. Eventually I realised I was the source of the desire that painted trees as flowing rivers.

My other was sober at notredam church in France, I went there and stood by some candles, I honestly prayed to just the idea of god, I relinquished my earthly responsibilities for a moment and soon felt naked, I had no hold on my life. I took back my responsibility and felt better.

I prayed away my responsibility and regretted the decision.

Plus there are some studies suggesting similarities between religious and psychedelic experiences.

Quote:

There are some limitations to note: the study participants were self-reporting on their experiences, which can lead to inaccuracies and misremembering. What's more, in some cases the experiences were quite some time ago.

Nevertheless, the researchers suggest that their findings are enough to show links between having a mystical or religious experience on psychedelic drugs, and that experience turning out to be positive in the long term – and that gives medical professionals something to work with in future treatments too.

"Providing a setting conducive to such experiences, whether described as mystical, peak, or emotional breakthrough, is also likely to be of benefit in clinical applications of psychedelics," say the researchers in their published paper.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/psychedelic-experiences-share-many-features-with-religious-experiences/amp




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955625 - 09/26/20 06:21 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the spiritual is your affinity and intent to improve and transcend, not what you see, what you take or whom you follow.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26955661 - 09/26/20 07:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
What exactly are you trying to achieve here?




Solicitation of input from others to make sense of experiences.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Here's a question, OP: why parse the two terms in the first place?




In another context, had a Greek professor who liked to say, "If you can't parse it, you don't understand it." In my case, the reverse-- I admittedly don't understand it, and am trying to get input from others to help me do so. In the same way, I see a very clear separation of religion and spirituality. One can be culturally religious with yet empty with no spirituality whatsoever.

I figured why struggle through trying to come up with a mediocre explanation in my mind when someone else with more experience has probably already done a better job of it. I've already read several profound comments here that will give me plenty to ponder, but am still eager to hear any other thoughts on differentiating or reconciling the two concepts.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26955744 - 09/26/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the spiritual is your affinity and intent to improve and transcend, not what you see, what you take or whom you follow.





Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
If the Spiritual is something that exists outside.....





You might agree that it refers to a presence outside the scope of the ordinary that calls it forth in a way like what you are alluding to in terms of improvement and transcendence.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26955755 - 09/26/20 08:50 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

as in supramundane, sure, why not? ecstasy and hallucination, however are also supramundane, so the topic has a bit of a circular nature.

if it is outside of you it is probably not spiritual but it could be a good meal or a mate, or a reminder to seek within.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26955774 - 09/26/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
as in supramundane, sure, why not? ecstasy and hallucination, however are also supramundane, so the topic has a bit of a circular nature.

if it is outside of you it is probably not spiritual but it could be a good meal or a mate, or a reminder to seek within.




I don't mean outside literally but to go back to the idea of awareness as something minimal in our nature.  The possibility that outside our ordinary conscious experience the Spiritual being something that calls our conscious forth in ways that are on its own terms.  So "supramundane" is good and well I guess imo.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26955938 - 09/26/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it is about understanding

think about understanding everything as it is

bhante called it finding out what it all means

everything is about truth

everything that matters

it is about good and bad if there is bad and safety and understanding because of goodness

how are things supposed to be?

and caring about the ideal so we gravitate towards it in our lives on different fields

action attitude way of being psychological components and faculties

if you care about everything it will improve

all fields will improve


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26956178 - 09/26/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:manofapproval:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26956198 - 09/26/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
it is about understanding

think about understanding everything as it is

bhante called it finding out what it all means

everything is about truth

everything that matters

it is about good and bad if there is bad and safety and understanding because of goodness

how are things supposed to be?

and caring about the ideal so we gravitate towards it in our lives on different fields

action attitude way of being psychological components and faculties

if you care about everything it will improve

all fields will improve




one of the first things I learned in grade 12 was to use as few words as possible to say what you mean.

do you mean "if you care about everything it will improve"
is it like "if you take care of things they will be well"
??


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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