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InvisibleSchlumpf
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Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 21
White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover
    #26951095 - 09/23/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



Probably another "grossed out" sample. The substrate was already mixed with presumably bacteria, as single rye grains retained their brown color and had a shiny coating. I still wanted to see how far I would come with this. I have sprayed the surface like once a day, but tried to keep humidity below 100%. As my last two versions with casings fell prey to green mold, I wanted to try it this time without a casing. The greenish discoloration looked like green mold, but it never became a noticeable layer, so I was wondering whether it could be something else. Over time there have appeared also white balls as you can see here. It is my goal to try agar next, however it seems to require considerable preparation, I don't have a still-air box yet for instance.

I wonder how you can actually keep green mold away as
1. you want to keep the surface moist,
2. you want fresh air exchange, which will almost invariably invite green mold spores as they are ubiquitous,
3. and I don't know what would keep the green mold from growing on the substrate, hell I've had green mold on top of the mushrooms themselves!

I will try to stick to a TEK next time, however I still wonder how the couple of TEKs I've read about prevent green mold from appearing sooner or later.


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Registered: 03/23/20
Posts: 2,005
Re: White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover [Re: Schlumpf]
    #26951123 - 09/23/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Oh my god you sick little monkey! (In Mr. Mackey voice)

I’m not sure what you’ve made here but it’s all moldy. You need to sterilize grain, inoculate it with a clean agar wedge or LC made from a clean wedge (spore syringes to straight to grain can work but they often have bacteria and sometimes mold and you’ll never know until it’s too late cuz you can’t see it, agar gives you a chance to see what’s growing before letting it get to your sterilized grains)

Then when grain is at 100% you mix it evenly with bulk substrate (spawning). Casing means adding a top layer of just bulk sub/casing material either right after spawning or around 80% colonization.

You avoid molds by having clean spawn (agar again). You can get Trich with clean spawn if you use manure or other additives and don’t properly pasteurize but if you’re using coir/verm you will be fine as long as you have clean spawn. It doesn’t matter that mold spores and bacteria get mixed in while spawning the tub, or that they float their way in throughout the subs life.

Subs will eventually weaken and succumb to mold but if you get 1 great flush anything else is extra anyway.


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Sour grapes, sweet revenge
Heaven starts right where hell ends


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
Re: White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover [Re: Schlumpf]
    #26951127 - 09/23/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Schlumpf said:
I wonder how you can actually keep green mold away as
1. you want to keep the surface moist,
2. you want fresh air exchange, which will almost invariably invite green mold spores as they are ubiquitous,
3. and I don't know what would keep the green mold from growing on the substrate, hell I've had green mold on top of the mushrooms themselves!

I will try to stick to a TEK next time, however I still wonder how the couple of TEKs I've read about prevent green mold from appearing sooner or later.




Definitely trichoderma (green mold)

Are you trying to fruit directly with rye berries as a substrate? Generally you want to mix the berries with a bulk substrate like coconut coir or manure which will hold the moisture. Rye berries can hold enough moisture for mycelium to colonize it to be used as spawn, but not enough for you to get many fruits out of it.

You're probably misting it excessively since the moisture content is off as a result of what I said above.

To answer your questions:
1. surface generally stays moist fairly well on its own if you are using bulk substrate (coir) with proper air exchange.

2. Fully colonized substrate is very resistant to contamination assuming it is kept in good health (it can prevent mold spores from eating the substrate it has already colonized). If it isn't fully colonized, or is weakened by insufficient moisture, air exchange, or other issues, it may not be able to fight off the mold.

Sidenote: this is why we sterilize jars/bags that are uncolonized - they are very prone to contamination up until the mycelium has fully colonized it. The gas exchange filter (e.g. dry vermiculite top layer for PF tek, or Synthetic filter disc, etc.) are fine enough that contaminant particles get trapped in the filter, while air can move through

3. Mushrooms have built in defense mechanisms against bacteria so they generallydon't get contaminated. However, every now and again the mushrooms could get contaminated by chance, but usually when they get contaminated themselves it is because they are too wet (more bacteria than the mushrooms can fight off collect in the water), too dry, or other conditions are present that makes it so the mushroom's natural defenses don't work.

In effect you need to meet a balance between too much moisture (where bacteria collects in excess) and too little (where mushrooms don't have enough water/resources to fight off bacteria). Most TEKs use coir to meet the proper moisture and a specific fruiting chamber design to meet the optimum balance of fresh air exchange (making it so the surface doesn't dry out too fast, or get too moist from no air exchange)

Hope this helps! Follow a TEK and you should meet the conditions needed to avoid contamination.


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (09/23/20 02:02 PM)


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InvisibleSchlumpf
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Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 21
Re: White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #26951242 - 09/23/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for your answers so far.

As these are my first tries, I took the seemingly easier route (less complex than the alternatives) through inoculating ready-made spawn bags with spore syringes. So far only one bag made it without contaminants, although I made precautions (desinfecting hands, surface etc.), but it could have been the syringe(s) as well. The one that made it got green mold on the casing layer and the mushrooms themselves later (see https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26892128)

I have read up on agar to some degree, and will try it, however I don't quite get how you could keep it clean even in a still-air box as nothing is completely sterile except a flowhood. Then how would a slightly contaminated agar sample be better than a slightly contaminated spore syringe..?


Edited by Schlumpf (09/23/20 02:52 PM)


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OfflineThat_guy90
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Registered: 08/20/19
Posts: 69
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
Re: White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover [Re: Schlumpf]
    #26951252 - 09/23/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Agar is used to grow out your culture to see if it has contaminates riding along and you can transfer healthy myc away on more agar until your satisfied its "clean". Just a step between Spore syringe and grain inoculation.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
Re: White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover [Re: Schlumpf]
    #26951333 - 09/23/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Schlumpf said:
even in a still-air box as nothing is completely sterile except a flowhood. Then how would a slightly contaminated agar sample be better than a slightly contaminated spore syringe..?




A SAB is not completely sterile you are right. But, with alcohol you can make it 99% sterile and because you eliminate air flows, the 1% leftover settles to the bottom or sides. I.e. you prevent contaminants from being blown into your agar dish by preexisting air flows in the first place. Improper sterile technique can screw up the principles of the SAB though so make sure you have good technique.

On the other hand, mushrooms are almost never fruited in a sterile environment, so even if you do the spore print in a SAB, sterilize the tinfoil you put it on, the syringe + water for the syringe, the spores will have already contracted traces of contamination from the air around the mushroom before it was even harvested for the spore print.

The exception to this is a spore print taken from a fruit in an already sterile environment, such as mushrooms that grow in agar plates with no visible contamination on the agar. Albeit the fresh air exchange and nutrient contents in agar plates are very low so the fruits will be tiny and the spore prints no bigger than 1x1cm in size lol.

Agar is only prone to contamination in a SAB if your technique is off (e.g. leaving fan on beside SAB, or forgetting to spray it with water/soap to pull contaminants to the bottom of the SAB, etc.)

If your SAB technique is bad or you just wanna avoid setting up the SAB to pour your plates, check out the holy grail plates in my signature.


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


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InvisibleSchlumpf
Stranger
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 21
Re: White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #26951428 - 09/23/20 04:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
Are you trying to fruit directly with rye berries as a substrate? Generally you want to mix the berries with a bulk substrate like coconut coir or manure which will hold the moisture. Rye berries can hold enough moisture for mycelium to colonize it to be used as spawn, but not enough for you to get many fruits out of it.





The spawn is from a ready-made spawn bag with a rye-vermiculite mix and air filter.

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
If your SAB technique is bad or you just wanna avoid setting up the SAB to pour your plates, check out the holy grail plates in my signature.




I will, thanks.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
Re: White balls and slight blue-green (but dry) cover [Re: Schlumpf]
    #26951441 - 09/23/20 04:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah you should be mixing it with a substrate. Spawn bags are just to establish a consolidated colony that can be used to extend to a bulk substrate for fruiting. It will fruit poorly on its own. The verm may help with moisture, but since the mycelium cannot colonize the vermiculite directly, it likely needs more than just that.

Also you will save a lot of money & resources by making your own spawn bags/jars but that's up to you :thumbup:

The agar will save you a lot of troubles with contamination. Good luck with this grow/your next! :smile:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


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