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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26951372 - 09/23/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
...
in this sense, related to the mind and reality,  perceiving of doing something could be equivalent to actually doing it.



that depends on your perceptions while doing something, and there is no guarantee that you are paying attention while doing it.
In any case, whatever your mental contents are (paying attention or not), that is your experience.
Many things in the reality being experienced can be ignored, so I do not equate mental contents to reality, but they are related.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:our capacity for insight without reason or observations - our intuitions - are as much of a component of thinking as logic.  knowing without knowing.



thinking, remembering, knowing, intuition are all in a flash mental events, everything in mind that is not of this type, is a sequential effort, like composing these comments, mental choreography.
The logic in it is intuitive word work (a series of 'in a flash' word findings) as I revisit the issue.


--------------------
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26951386 - 09/23/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

long ago it was said practicing by visualizing basket ball shots resulted in the same improvement as actual practice -- no idea if its true or not
may depend on visualiztion skills
and or level of talent to start with

on the other hand
anti vaxers have had their kids die
from refusal to use vacines known to work
and religious snake handlers to die from bites
and fire walkers
get inconsistant results

some can go into deep hypnosis
some not
some lucid dream
some don't

doesn't seem to be a 'one size' fits all


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26955401 - 09/26/20 01:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Epistemological blind spots (insufficiency and incapacity) are both very, very real! Unknown unknowns!

You cannot know what you cannot know!


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26956728 - 09/26/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

there may be philosophical answers (as to what we know, or can know)
and
there may be psychological answers
and there are scientific discoveries waiting to be made
but as wiki leaks & Edward Snowden showed us
at the level of basic political/economic/world affairs,
we may be both, and/or ignorant & mislead as regards accurate knowledge or truth
for instance info like this that is filtered out by the news media



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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #26957240 - 09/27/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Reality at its core is subjective, once we get past this as the starting point it gets easier.

Having said that and to try to answer OP's question, I think being able to sort out what is real and what is imaginary requires us to be careful observers and to draw conclusions only after many repeated observations. If someone else is able to corroborate your observations then that helps too.

Additionally one must be careful of personal biases and to not let these colour our observations and skew our interpretations.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26957349 - 09/27/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
one must be careful of personal biases and to not let these colour our observations and skew our interpretations.




That's impossible in practice I believe. To some extent we are armed by old beliefs that become shattered by new insights.


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OfflinePanziani
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26957488 - 09/27/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Nice thread. I alos plan to visit Divided's question/thread about culturual yin and yang shifts, but I landed here first.....


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Panziani]
    #26957543 - 09/27/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah I think we're always in bias.  Although we can agree that a given building is 50 feet high based on a tape measure and eyesight.  :facepalm:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26957678 - 09/27/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

until you lose all sense of proportion.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26957819 - 09/27/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Wave-particle duality & uncertainty give reference to discrepancy between observations, despite the fits of face-palming and nausea expressed by conservatives.


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Buster_Brown] * 2
    #26958004 - 09/27/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

Warrk said:
one must be careful of personal biases and to not let these colour our observations and skew our interpretations.




That's impossible in practice I believe. To some extent we are armed by old beliefs that become shattered by new insights.




Actually you are right, it is not possible to eradicate biases and these always colour our interpretations. Maybe in the rare event of ego death during a mega dose of shrooms we might briefly see things as they really are perhaps?

I should have been more careful with my wording to recommend being aware of our biases and taking these into account when interpreting the data and drawing conclusions.

This YT video by Prof. Donald Hoffman is great in explaining perceptions and reality... I love the example of the Australian jewel beetle!



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26958424 - 09/28/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's true that bias is an integral part of our mental make up, but being able to see a bias and adjust is also in that tool box. I think it's interesting because that tool tends to be "invisible", generally pushed to the surface when there is great need, otherwise surfing along on our biases is the norm. But if one intentionally holds that tool the biases begin to show themselves quickly. It may not be pleasant, but it's just a matter of priorities that make it worthwhile or not, and knowing is half the battle.

I suppose there will always be some biases, but perhaps the ones we are ready to deal with are the ones that percolate.

Or maybe it will open a can of cognitive dissonance we aren't ready for? :satansmoking:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26961654 - 09/30/20 09:18 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I enjoyed Donald Hoffman's talk.
However he seems to box himself into a corner though, when he denies the reality of space and time, near the end, yet thinks science and math can solve the puzzle of reality.
Why?
Because, explaining make use of causality,
and causality
depends upon time.

The guy at the end, (the TED host?), seems to have missed this point, which I think is the crucial point, or objection.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26961782 - 09/30/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would say it does box one into a corner simply to declare that space and time don't really exist. I think what people really mean when they say this is that they are relative dimensions that can be transcended. In other words, for practical purposes they exist well enough, but are not fundamental or final.

Incidentally, there are several branches of mathematics that do not depend on linear causality. For example, there are several nonlinear algebras that posit acausal rather than causal premises.

I think you are right that causality depends upon time, or you could even say that time depends on causality, which has a slightly different meaning. In any case, linear causality is repudiated by quantum theory, which is showing us that dimensions beyond time go far beyond human concepts of causality.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26961813 - 09/30/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It seems to me machinery with gears, pulleys, &  levers, like clocks depends on causality. And so does language with its grammar and tenses.
And reason depends on grammatical language as opposed to gibberish.

Without effects that are consistent and predictable, would seem anything is equally possible.
Seems even quantum theory 'wants' entanglement etc. to be predictably possible and consistent.

When we can't nail things down, the way we can with billiard balls, we use statistics.

So I take your word for it that some strange ideas about these things exist, but have no idea if they are just a fantasy. " Acausal premises" sounds like an oxymoron.


Edited by laughingdog (09/30/20 11:18 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26961814 - 09/30/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would not be comfortable saying any of that.

time and space and gravity and fields all truly exist, and they can interplay in ways that are not expected under certain conditions, few of which impinge on anything in the scale of our lives.

working with the equations, you mentioned and with instruments, yet to be invented, we may eventually discover useful and amazing things, but so far all I see is confusion and intellectual intimidation, or outright flakiness depending on how many god particles someone has swallowed.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26961834 - 09/30/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
It seems to me machinery with gears, pulleys, &  levers, like clocks depends on causality. And so does language with its grammar and tenses.
And reason depends on grammatical language as opposed to gibberish.

Without effects that are consistent and predictable, would seem anything is equally possible.
Seems even quantum theory 'wants' entanglement etc. to be predictably possible and consistent.

When we can't nail things down, the way we can with billiard balls, we use statistics.

So I take your word for it that some strange ideas about these things exist, but have no idea if they are just a fantasy. " Acausal premises" sounds like an oxymoron.





Yes, perhaps acausal premises is an oxymoron, but it's more or less accurate. The biggest problem with a dependence on causality in the sciences, especially physics, is the reliance on calculus.  Newtonian calculus is explicitly linear, and explicitly causal.

Now, beginning in the early 1900s, physicists discovered what could only be called "acausal" phenomena in the quantum realm. However, they continued to do the math using calculus. This has continued until today. There are outliers like chaos theory and some pure math that go well beyond this, but physics is mired in contradiction.

It is possible to address non-causal phenomena with mathematics, but not with calculus. We also do not necessarily need to rely on the classical statistical approaches. Some scientists have been working on non-linear algebras in order to reconcile quantum theory, relativity, and our math, but so far calculus reigns supreme.

I can tell you we've got our heads up our asses as long as we use calculus in cutting-edge physics. A lot of mathematicians are quite well aware of this. What we are doing is trying to explain acausal theory (quantum mechanics) and nonlinear theory (relativity) with cumbersome, linear systems. It don't work. But that doesn't mean we can't go a lot farther with math, eventually.

Just one more branch of society where man is stuck in the muck.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26961837 - 09/30/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I would not be comfortable saying any of that.

time and space and gravity and fields all truly exist, and they can interplay in ways that are not expected under certain conditions, few of which impinge on anything in the scale of our lives.

working with the equations, you mentioned and with instruments, yet to be invented, we may eventually discover useful and amazing things, but so far all I see is confusion and intellectual intimidation, or outright flakiness depending on how many god particles someone has swallowed.





Well okay. I don't disagree with anything you've said. Physics over the last 50 years deserves a little credit. But not much, as you point out.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26961887 - 09/30/20 12:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I guess you have to be a mathematician to see if anything useful comes out of what you claim.
As I say language (and therefore reason) depends on rules you claim can be violated, with good results.
As I say even quantum theory wants entanglement (etc.) to work everyday, not just on alternate Thursdays.
People who talk schizophrenese often end up locked up. But people who invent untestable string theories get government grants. I guess that proves something.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26961984 - 09/30/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

bullshit baffles brains


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