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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: koods]
    #26949401 - 09/22/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Universal mail in voting is mail in voting. He doesn’t want to give people the choice of voting by mail or voting in person. As far as can tell, he only approves of mail in voting when you have an excuse for not voting in person, aka absentee voting.



Universal mail in voting is a type of mail in voting.  Trump approves mail in voting for anyone who requests it.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblebirdeatingspider
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949451 - 09/22/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, voting machines at in-person polls are more likely to be hacked using malicious software- some data shows this could have already happened in the past.

https://citp.princeton.edu/our-work/voting/
https://harpers.org/archive/2012/11/how-to-rig-an-election/

Stop using NJ as an example and look to the 5 states such as WA and OR who have and always use mail in ballots.

D Trump's claims are unfounded and, like much of what he spews- transparent and ego-driven.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1249132374547464193

https://blog.ucsusa.org/michael-latner/voter-fraud-proponents-are-frauds


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From all I may be, or have been before,
To mingle with the Universe, and feel
What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: birdeatingspider]
    #26949492 - 09/22/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

At least now we're finally having a discussion about voting.

Quote:

birdeatingspider said:
Stop using NJ as an example and look to the 5 states such as WA and OR who have and always use mail in ballots.



Agreed, but how about we look at everything and not cherry pick?  Again, this isn't just about mail in voting, as the media is trying to get you to believe, but about mail in voting for all, whether requested or not.

Quote:

birdeatingspider said:
D Trump's claims are unfounded and, like much of what he spews- transparent and ego-driven.



We don't have too many examples of everyone getting ballots without requesting them.  We'll probably learn a lot more about their reliability after the elections.

There may well be differences between mail in voting by voter request, and mail in voting for all.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 1
    #26949499 - 09/22/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
The Nazi swastika




Is actually called a hakenkreuz, or "hooked cross". Swastika is the term for the original Hindu symbol. But, for the purposes of reference, swastika is also valid. I only bring this up because of your previous etymology of "Holocaust".

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
There was even one that had a swimming pool.




You've mentioned this at least twice, but slightly out of context. Yes, the camps often had recreational facilities...for the SS officers and soldiers that ran the camps. Not for the prisoners. After all, spending days, weeks, or months at a time away from your family gassing Jews is still work, and you gotta be able to blow off a little steam by the pool with your fellow SS butchers.

Anyway. Nitpicking over. Carry on.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Kryptos]
    #26949513 - 09/22/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
The Nazi swastika




Is actually called a hakenkreuz, or "hooked cross". Swastika is the term for the original Hindu symbol. But, for the purposes of reference, swastika is also valid. I only bring this up because of your previous etymology of "Holocaust".




Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
There was even one that had a swimming pool.




You've mentioned this at least twice, but slightly out of context. Yes, the camps often had recreational facilities...for the SS officers and soldiers that ran the camps. Not for the prisoners. After all, spending days, weeks, or months at a time away from your family gassing Jews is still work, and you gotta be able to blow off a little steam by the pool with your fellow SS butchers.

Anyway. Nitpicking over. Carry on.



I completely agree. I only mentioned the swimming pool because it's another popular Holocaust denier talking point. Your point is exactly correct: the pools were not for the prisoners. They were for the SS. Holocaust deniers like to bring up the pool because they argue that it's evidence that Auschwitz wasn't really a death camp.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949520 - 09/22/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with the above statement as well.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949534 - 09/22/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Look, if anyone who questions the official narrative is a holocaust denier, then I'll agree Roberts is a holocaust denier.  That's a silly definition if you ask me.



That is not the definition of a Holocaust denier that I'm employing. I would define a Holocaust denier as anyone who casts doubt over any of the historical facts of the Holocaust with the intent of absolving the Nazis of guilt.

The specific historical facts that are being put into question are not the significant part. The significant part is the intent of absolving the Nazis of guilt. For example, someone who claims that the Holocaust is a complete fabrication, and that no one was murdered at all is obviously a Holocaust denier under this definition, but so is someone who claims that Hitler didn't know about the Final Solution and that, therefore, he was innocent.

By the definition I've provided, it is clear as day that Roberts is a Holocaust denier.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949543 - 09/22/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I can agree with that definition.  :thumbup:

Did Roberts claim Hitler didn't know?  If so, I missed that statement, and I apologize.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949545 - 09/22/20 03:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
You're acting like all he said was that there was no paper document signed by Hitler found detailing the Final Solution, which is true..."

Auschwitz was a massive facility consisting of many "camps". Some of these camps employed Nazi workers, who produced rubber and other goods.



Thank you Nonagon for making Shivas die on my hill.




Ah yes, dishonestly quoting Nonagon Infinity in order to create the suggestion that they agree with your holocaust denying rhetoric - despite their explicit commentary otherwise - is a real good look.


Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Nevertheless, here's a blatantly false quote from the article Roberts wrote that you quoted that started this whole discussion:
Quote:

The "death camps" were in fact work camps.



This is a well-known Holocaust denier talking point. Auschwitz was a massive facility consisting of many "camps". Some of these camps employed Nazi workers, who produced rubber and other goods. There was even one that had a swimming pool. However, by the end of the war, over forty of these camps were dedicated exclusively to the imprisonment and extermination of Jews, Roma, and political enemies of the Nazis. To say that the "death camps" were "in fact" work camps is a blatant lie. Auschwitz consisted of both work camps and death camps. The only reason Roberts would say something like this is to deliberately mislead people into believing the Nazis were innocent of the Holocaust. This is Roberts' narrative in the article: that historians got it all wrong about the Holocaust, and that well-known Holocaust deniers like David Irving are the ones who are really telling the truth about what happened in Nazi Germany.

The quote that you pulled from this same article, the one that you insist on continuing to defend (most likely to protect your own ego) is directed towards that same thesis. If you want me to stop thinking that you're a Holocaust denier, then you need to stop defending the work of a blatant Holocaust denier. If you didn't know any better and this was all a big misunderstanding or whatever, then that's fine, but you should know the truth about Roberts: he's a Holocaust denier, and he's been responsible for spreading misinformation about history on multiple occasions. Otherwise, I have to assume that you did understand this about Roberts and that you agree with him, and if you do, then you are also a Holocaust denier.

Sure, let's stick to the facts:
  • Roberts is a Holocaust denier
  • The quote you pulled from the article is a prime example of Holocaust denial, and you would be able to see that if you read the entire article
  • You have insisted on defending Roberts and his Holocaust denying article


Those are the facts.




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Offlinekoods
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949558 - 09/22/20 03:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Universal mail in voting is mail in voting. He doesn’t want to give people the choice of voting by mail or voting in person. As far as can tell, he only approves of mail in voting when you have an excuse for not voting in person, aka absentee voting.



Universal mail in voting is a type of mail in voting.  Trump approves mail in voting for anyone who requests it.



Source or make believe?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: koods]
    #26949563 - 09/22/20 03:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
You're acting like all he said was that there was no paper document signed by Hitler found detailing the Final Solution, which is true..."

Auschwitz was a massive facility consisting of many "camps". Some of these camps employed Nazi workers, who produced rubber and other goods.



Thank you Nonagon for making Shivas die on my hill.



Ah yes, dishonestly quoting Nonagon Infinity in order to create the suggestion that they agree with your holocaust denying rhetoric - despite their explicit commentary otherwise - is a real good look.



Dishonestly?  You'll have to explain.

Do you or nonagon have the documentation that Roberts claimed doesn't exist, or don't you?  It's really that simple.

Nonagon also stated that some of the camps were work camps.  Are you saying I was dishonestly quoting him about that?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949567 - 09/22/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I can agree with that definition.  :thumbup:

Did Roberts claim Hitler didn't know?  If so, I missed that statement, and I apologize.  :shrug:



Yes, he did, and the fact that you missed it means that you didn't actually read the article you quoted from. It wasn't just a statement, either. It was pretty much one of the central theses of the entire article. From what I understand, you pulled the original Roberts quote from Wikipedia (I saw it there, too). Wikipedia is an amazing resource, but it's really only a starting point. In the quote you provided from Wikipedia, there's a link to an article called "The Lies about World War II". It's really important to view sources in full context, because I think it's near-impossible to have read this article all the way through and come to any conclusion other than that Roberts is a Holocaust denier (even just the title of the article alone should have raised a red flag).

Specifically, the thesis that Hitler was unaware of the Final Solution belongs to David Irving. In the article, Roberts quotes Irving multiple times and offers his own support of that thesis. The really frustrating thing is that I already explained this to you earlier in this thread.

I'm glad you understand why this is an appropriate definition of Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is a very dangerous position to hold, politically, because Holocaust denial has the long-term goal of defending fascism from criticism. Fascism is a dangerous political ideology, and the Nazis are one of history's best examples of what happens when fascism is protected from criticism. Holocaust denial isn't just insulting to Jews, Roma, and other victims of that great tragedy: it could be really dangerous for people who are alive right now.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949575 - 09/22/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Nonagon also stated that some of the camps were work camps.  Are you saying I was dishonestly quoting him about that?



Yes, some of the camps at Auschwitz were work camps. However, these camps employed SS people, not prisoners. The prisoners were placed in concentration camps, where they were murdered en masse. Roberts' quote was that "The "death camps" were, in fact, work camps". That is a fucking lie, Falcon. The use of the words "in fact" in that quote implies that there were no death camps at Auschwitz, which is blatant denial of historical fact.

There is a huge difference between saying:
  • Some of the camps at Auschwitz were work camps
  • The death camps at Auschwitz weren't really death camps: they were work camps

The second statement is equivalent to Roberts' statement.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949622 - 09/22/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I can agree with that definition.  :thumbup:

Did Roberts claim Hitler didn't know?  If so, I missed that statement, and I apologize.  :shrug:



Yes, he did, and the fact that you missed it means that you didn't actually read the article you quoted from.



To clarify, I didn't quote from the article, I quoted from Wikipedia I was asked to read, which didn't give the whole article.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
From what I understand, you pulled the original Roberts quote from Wikipedia (I saw it there, too). Wikipedia is an amazing resource, but it's really only a starting point.



Exactly.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
In the quote you provided from Wikipedia, there's a link to an article called "The Lies about World War II". It's really important to view sources in full context, because I think it's near-impossible to have read this article all the way through and come to any conclusion other than that Roberts is a Holocaust denier (even just the title of the article alone should have raised a red flag).

Specifically, the thesis that Hitler was unaware of the Final Solution belongs to David Irving. In the article, Roberts quotes Irving multiple times and offers his own support of that thesis. The really frustrating thing is that I already explained this to you earlier in this thread.

I'm glad you understand why this is an appropriate definition of Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is a very dangerous position to hold, politically, because Holocaust denial has the long-term goal of defending fascism from criticism. Fascism is a dangerous political ideology, and the Nazis are one of history's best examples of what happens when fascism is protected from criticism. Holocaust denial isn't just insulting to Jews, Roma, and other victims of that great tragedy: it could be really dangerous for people who are alive right now.



I read the longer article, and I think many of Roberts points about Hitler are likely valid.  But he does imply that Hitler didn't direct the holocaust, so I'll agree with you about that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949623 - 09/22/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Yes, some of the camps at Auschwitz were work camps. However, these camps employed SS people, not prisoners.



Wait, are you claiming Jews weren't put to slave work in any of the camps?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/22/20 03:52 PM)


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949644 - 09/22/20 03:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Yes, some of the camps at Auschwitz were work camps. However, these camps employed SS people, not prisoners.



Wait, are you claiming Jews weren't put to slave work in any of the camps?



No, I'm saying that there were labor camps at Auschwitz that had SS employees and no prison labor, and that there were also camps where prisoners were forced into slave labor, starved, tortured, and murdered.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949698 - 09/22/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, got it.  Since they killed people after using them for slave labor, you don't appreciate the term work camps.  Fair enough.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949750 - 09/22/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ok, got it.  Since they killed people after using them for slave labor, you don't appreciate the term work camps.  Fair enough.



No, the term "death camp" is far more appropriate for some of the camps at Auschwitz. In particular, Auschwitz-II Birkenau seemed to serve no purpose other than extermination. The only forced labor known to have taken place at that camp that I've read about was the construction of the prison barracks themselves, which the prisoners were forced to build. Once the gas chambers were built, Auschwitz-II Birkenau was pretty much exclusively used for extermination. It's not just that I don't appreciate the term "work camp" to describe Auschwitz-II Birkenau. It's that "work camp" isn't an accurate term to describe what took place there. It was a death camp. The primary purpose of that place was extermination, not labor. It's not about my appreciation or not, it's about being historically accurate. Calling Auschwitz-II Birkenau a "work camp" would be an obvious attempt to obfuscate what really happened there.


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949759 - 09/22/20 04:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ok, got it.  Since they killed people after using them for slave labor, you don't appreciate the term work camps.  Fair enough.





The killed people transporting them to the camps, by forcing them stand without water for days, camps can also be considered post death camps where they unload some of the transports already unable to preform labor, due to death.


Edited by falcon (09/22/20 05:13 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon *DELETED* [Re: falcon]
    #26949778 - 09/22/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Falcon91Wolvrn03

Reason for deletion: Duplicate post


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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