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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26948725 - 09/22/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
To know people's psychological motivations is an incredible skill. Or is that just an assumption?




Pointing out that Holocaust denial is a defense of the Nazis requires absolutely no psychological analysis whatsoever. What purpose would Holocaust denial serve, save for the defense of the Nazis from criticism?

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
In the current environment of outrage theater, fake hate has proliferated. Fake hate is something many are reluctant to discuss - because it takes away from one's ability to engage in the fun drama of outrage. If I am a lonely miserable person who has no meaning in my life, am I going to paint Nazi swastikas on a grammar school or a Jewish synagogue? Miserable people often engage in fake hate because it's a very effective way to get the big outrage reaction. It's trolling. And your work gets featured on the TV news as "hate crime investigation" . . .



Antisemitism doesn't always have to be overtly signaled to be effective at dehumanizing Jews. The Nazi swastika is a well-known hate symbol at this point. People can't get away with signaling their antisemitism using the swastika anymore because it's too well known. The smart antisemites have abandoned the use of the swastika (at least publicly), and have switched to more covert means of antisemitism, mostly so that they can plausibly deny holding antisemitic views when they get called out. Here are some examples:

  • Referring to a "globalist" conspiracy to enslave the masses ("globalist" can sometimes be a dog whistle that means "jew" to an antisemite)
  • Using three parentheses around a noun to signal that the noun is a Jew (or Jewish-controlled), like this: "The (((media))) doesn't want you to know the truth."
  • Denying that the Holocaust occurred, claiming that the Nazis weren't responsible or blameworthy for the Holocaust, claiming that 6 million deaths is an exaggeration, or otherwise casting doubt on history. Since Holocaust denial is now publicly known to be an antisemitic position, bigots have tried switching to other coded terminology such as "history revisionism".
  • Conflating Zionism (a position about Israeli politics) with Judaism or Jewish culture, which allows antisemites to blame any political misdeeds in Israel on American Jews.


These are some of the means via which antisemitism spreads in America today. All of the above methods are covert enough that one could deny holding antisemetic positions when confronted. However, a real antisemite will see the word "globalist", or three parentheses, or the words "history revisionism", or the word "zionism", and they'll know exactly what it means. Such language signals to other antisemites that something antisemitic is being said.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26948731 - 09/22/20 01:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Nonagon's got everyone thinking I don't believe in the holocaust.




No, Falcon. You've got everyone thinking you're a Holocaust denier. Your actions led other people to see your position for what it really is, not mine. You can't just spout Holocaust denier rhetoric and then blame me or anyone else for thinking that you're a Holocaust denier. If you don't want to be called a Holocaust denier, then you need to stop defending other Holocaust deniers for their denial, and you need to stop repeating Holocaust denier talking points. It's really that simple.

You're not a fucking victim, man. You put yourself in this situation.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can I get a mod to please ask people to stop with all the make believe?  I spend almost all my time correcting such people here.



From what I see, you spend most of your time on the forums quoting extremely questionable sources, defending Donald Trump's actions, and using dishonest rhetorical tactics like misdirection and goalpost-shifting. Then, when you get called out on your bullshit, you play victim and act like everyone is attacking you, when we're really just criticizing your arguments.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26948898 - 09/22/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The main discussion in this thread is about the upcoming elections, and the fact that so few people, including yourself, want to comment on whether better election security is a good thing or not.



That's one way to frame the issue.  Another is whether additional barriers to voting is a good thing. 

"Election security" has been the excuse for many awful policies in the past: Voter ID laws, Poll taxes, etc.  Typically, however, all of these "security" procedures have disproportionately impacted people of color and the poor. 

So, let's look at the real issue instead of playing your stupid game.  We're talking about the balance between election accuracy and election participation.  The more measures to increase accuracy, the more barriers there are to participation.  Which problem is a bigger problem today?  Do we have a widespread election fraud issue?  No.  Do we have abysmal election participation rate?  Yes.  You and Trump seem to not want to ease the major problem because you think it might make the smaller problem somewhat worse.

I say that's irrational on your part and malicious on his.  What say you?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Enlil]
    #26948921 - 09/22/20 08:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Even Paul Craig Roberts, a guy I hold a lot of respect for. . .



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Dude, I don't have a degree in Paul Craig Roberts history. 




I don't know what to tell you.  Before you drop a name as a source and someone you respect, it might be a good idea just to see if that person is credible and/or deserving of your respect.  You certainly can't blame us for making reasonable inferences based on your declaration of respect for a known Hitler apologist.  :shrug:


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949013 - 09/22/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
Nobody is in favor of it not being right the first time. I'm sorry not everyone is patting Trump on his back like you would like them to but given his record of not giving a shit about anything or anyone but himself it's understandable for people to be skeptical of his motives.



No need to be sorry that Trump is in favor of it being right the first time.



You can’t be this naive


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Enlil]
    #26949184 - 09/22/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The main discussion in this thread is about the upcoming elections, and the fact that so few people, including yourself, want to comment on whether better election security is a good thing or not.



That's one way to frame the issue.  Another is whether additional barriers to voting is a good thing.



Sure, I guess asking someone to register to vote by mail is a barrier, but we've always done it that way before.

Quote:

Enlil said:
"Election security" has been the excuse for many awful policies in the past: Voter ID laws, Poll taxes, etc.  Typically, however, all of these "security" procedures have disproportionately impacted people of color and the poor.



I agree 100%, but that's not what we're talking about here.  We're talking about mailing ballots to everyone whether they request it or not.

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, let's look at the real issue instead of playing your stupid game.



Insults?  Sounds like an Enlil game to me.  :smirk:  Yes, looking at the real issues is what I requested from the beginning.

Quote:

Enlil said:
We're talking about the balance between election accuracy and election participation.  The more measures to increase accuracy, the more barriers there are to participation.  Which problem is a bigger problem today?  Do we have a widespread election fraud issue?  No.  Do we have abysmal election participation rate?  Yes.  You and Trump seem to not want to ease the major problem because you think it might make the smaller problem somewhat worse.

I say that's irrational on your part and malicious on his.  What say you?



I say we don't know how big a problem election fraud may be with everyone getting a mail in ballot, including those who didn't request one.  New Jersey showed us what could happen.

I actually think that mail in voting is a great idea, and even essential during the pandemic, but I'm also not sure that sending a mail in ballot to everyone who didn't request one is the best idea.  I can see the trade-off, and I think we'll learn about all the problems AFTER the election is final, unfortunately.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: koods]
    #26949189 - 09/22/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
You can’t be this naive



Can you make a logical argument instead of an insult, or at least combine insults with logical arguments as Enlil just did?  :shrug:


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949200 - 09/22/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Sure, I guess asking someone to register to vote by mail is a barrier, but we've always done it that way before.




At one point, this same logic could have been used to defend slavery, segregation, crucifixion, and any number of horrible practices.  Do you have anything better than "we've always done it this way?"


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Enlil]
    #26949219 - 09/22/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Sure, I guess asking someone to register to vote by mail is a barrier, but we've always done it that way before.



At one point, this same logic could have been used to defend slavery, segregation, crucifixion, and any number of horrible practices.  Do you have anything better than "we've always done it this way?"



I did, but perhaps you missed it:

New Local Election Ordered in N.J. After Mail-In Voter Fraud Charges


--------------------
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26949232 - 09/22/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

So, your problem with mailing ballots to everyone is that one time, a thousand or so ballots were thrown out because signatures didn't match?  That's kinda like having a problem with blaming hitler for the holocaust because you don't have a signed order from him.

Oh wait...

No, I mean it's like having a problem with hot water in homes because a house occasionally burns down when a water heater fails.

Keep in mind, a vote not cast because of a barrier is just as much of an accuracy problem as a vote cast illegally.




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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949243 - 09/22/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Nonagon's got everyone thinking I don't believe in the holocaust.




No, Falcon. You've got everyone thinking you're a Holocaust denier. Your actions led other people to see your position for what it really is, not mine.



What I did was defend a position from Paul Craig Roberts that you seem to have agreed is true.  And now I'm called a holocaust denier for that.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
From what I see, you spend most of your time on the forums quoting extremely questionable sources, defending Donald Trump's actions, and using dishonest rhetorical tactics like misdirection and goalpost-shifting.



Paul Craig Roberts has been a great source in this forum (for example, he pointed out that Trump-Russia election collusion was likely fake news).  Though I really don't want to make this discussion about the holocaust, I don't even know what he's said that's turned out to be wrong.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Then, when you get called out on your bullshit, you play victim and act like everyone is attacking you, when we're really just criticizing your arguments.



Unlike others, I actual debate the points people say are "bullshit", as it usually turns out not to be the case.  You called me a holocaust denier for defending a position about Paul Craig Roberts that appears to be true.  That's what other might call "bullshit", but I say let's stop with the name calling and stick to the facts.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/22/20 12:35 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Enlil]
    #26949267 - 09/22/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, your problem with mailing ballots to everyone is that one time, a thousand or so ballots were thrown out because signatures didn't match?  That's kinda like having a problem with blaming hitler for the holocaust because you don't have a signed order from him.

Oh wait...



Did I say I have a problem blaming Hitler for the holocaust because we don't have a signed paper for him, or did I say a signed paper hasn't been found?  I said the latter, but you're trying to imply the former.  That's not arguing in good faith.

And the issue in New Jersey was a lot more than signatures not matching.  It was finding hundreds of ballots bundled together.  Perhaps tricking people is how you argue in court, but I'd prefer a little more honesty here. 

Quote:

Enlil said:
No, I mean it's like having a problem with hot water in homes because a house occasionally burns down when a water heater fails.

Keep in mind, a vote not cast because of a barrier is just as much of an accuracy problem as a vote cast illegally.



Look, I get both sides.  I just wanted to have an honest discussion about the issue, since it's clear the mainstream media got people to falsely think Trump was against all mail in voting.  They trick people all the time, and people always seem to get upset when I call them out.

Can we talk about the issue now?  Again, I think we'll get results that will be far more disputed than previous elections.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/22/20 12:37 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26949289 - 09/22/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry but I think you're going to have a difficult time convincing people to let up on holocaust denial.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Did I say I have a problem blaming Hitler for the holocaust because we don't have a signed paper for him, or did I say a signed paper hasn't been found?  I said the latter, but you're trying to imply the former.  That's not arguing in good faith.




Here's what you quoted and supported:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What Paul Craig Roberts did say, according to Wikipedia, was that "No German plans, or orders from Hitler, or from Himmler or anyone else have ever been found for an organized holocaust by gas and cremation of Jews... The death camps were in fact work camps. Auschwitz, for example, today a Holocaust museum, was the site of Germany's essential artificial rubber factory. Germany was desperate for a work force."

This doesn't sound unreasonable to me, and I don't see how it make him a holocaust denier.  He's not denying what happened, he's adding information.




No German plans for an organized holocaust by gas and cremation of Jews... The death camps were in fact work camps... This doesn't sound unreasonable to me...

Is this really the hill you want to die on?


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949310 - 09/22/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

He is against mail in voting.

Quote:

Universal mail-in voting is going to be catastrophic, it's going to make our country the laughing stock of the world. The problem with the mail-in voting, number one, is you're never going to know when the election is over




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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26949325 - 09/22/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
No German plans for an organized holocaust by gas and cremation of Jews...



You missed the last part:
... "have ever been found"

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The death camps were in fact work camps...



You missed the last part:
... "Auschwitz was the site of Germany's essential artificial rubber factory. Germany was desperate for a work force."

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
"This doesn't sound unreasonable to me..."

Is this really the hill you want to die on?



You need to show that plans for an organized holocaust have been found, and I need to show that Jews were used to help the German workforce.

Does that sound about right?  Should be do this "battle"?


--------------------
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: koods]
    #26949329 - 09/22/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
He is against mail in voting.



He is against universal mail in voting.  That's the point I'm making, as you continue to make believe.


--------------------
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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949338 - 09/22/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What I did was defend a position from Paul Craig Roberts that you seem to have agreed is true.  And now I'm called a holocaust denier for that.




I did not agree with what Paul Craig Roberts said. You're acting like all he said was that there was no paper document signed by Hitler found detailing the Final Solution, which is true, but that's not the full extent of what Roberts said. If you read the article that quote was pulled from, you'll find that Roberts said that because there was no such document found, Hitler cannot be held responsible for the Holocaust. This is blatantly false, and I do not agree with it. So, to make it perfectly clear: I do not agree with the quote you pulled from Roberts.

Your insistence on defending Roberts is really troubling, Falcon. Knowing that he is a Holocaust denier and that the quote you pulled was an obvious example of Holocaust denial, I can think of just for defending Roberts as you continue to do:
1. You agree with him because you are also a Holocaust denier
2. You have a really sensitive ego, and you don't have the humility to just admit that you accidentally defended a Holocaust denier because doing so would be to admit that you made a mistake, and you just can't stand "being wrong".

I think #2 is the much more charitable position, and I think it would reflect much better on your character than #1. #2 is forgivable, but not if you insist on continuing to defend a Holocaust denier to protect your ego.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
From what I see, you spend most of your time on the forums quoting extremely questionable sources, defending Donald Trump's actions, and using dishonest rhetorical tactics like misdirection and goalpost-shifting.



Paul Craig Roberts has been a great source in this forum (for example, he pointed out that Trump-Russia election collusion was likely fake news).  Though I really don't want to make this discussion about the holocaust, I don't even know what he's said that's turned out to be wrong.




Other users in this thread have given you a laundry list of quotes from Paul Craig Roberts that are blatantly false or straight up antisemitic. Do you really want to continue defending a known Holocaust denier? At this point, I can only assume that the answer is "yes," because you really seem insistent on defending this guy.

Nevertheless, here's a blatantly false quote from the article Roberts wrote that you quoted that started this whole discussion:
Quote:

The "death camps" were in fact work camps.



This is a well-known Holocaust denier talking point. Auschwitz was a massive facility consisting of many "camps". Some of these camps employed Nazi workers, who produced rubber and other goods. There was even one that had a swimming pool. However, by the end of the war, over forty of these camps were dedicated exclusively to the imprisonment and extermination of Jews, Roma, and political enemies of the Nazis. To say that the "death camps" were "in fact" work camps is a blatant lie. Auschwitz consisted of both work camps and death camps. The only reason Roberts would say something like this is to deliberately mislead people into believing the Nazis were innocent of the Holocaust. This is Roberts' narrative in the article: that historians got it all wrong about the Holocaust, and that well-known Holocaust deniers like David Irving are the ones who are really telling the truth about what happened in Nazi Germany.

The quote that you pulled from this same article, the one that you insist on continuing to defend (most likely to protect your own ego) is directed towards that same thesis. If you want me to stop thinking that you're a Holocaust denier, then you need to stop defending the work of a blatant Holocaust denier. If you didn't know any better and this was all a big misunderstanding or whatever, then that's fine, but you should know the truth about Roberts: he's a Holocaust denier, and he's been responsible for spreading misinformation about history on multiple occasions. Otherwise, I have to assume that you did understand this about Roberts and that you agree with him, and if you do, then you are also a Holocaust denier.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Then, when you get called out on your bullshit, you play victim and act like everyone is attacking you, when we're really just criticizing your arguments.



Unlike others, I actual debate the points people say are "bullshit", as it usually turns out not to be the case.  You called me a holocaust denier for defending a position about Paul Craig Roberts that appears to be true.  That's what other might call "bullshit", but I say let's stop with the name calling and stick to the facts.



Sure, let's stick to the facts:
  • Roberts is a Holocaust denier
  • The quote you pulled from the article is a prime example of Holocaust denial, and you would be able to see that if you read the entire article
  • You have insisted on defending Roberts and his Holocaust denying article


Those are the facts.


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26949356 - 09/22/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
He is against mail in voting.



He is against universal mail in voting.  That's the point I'm making, as you continue to make believe.




Universal mail in voting is mail in voting. He doesn’t want to give people the choice of voting by mail or voting in person. As far as can tell, he only approves of mail in voting when you have an excuse for not voting in person, aka absentee voting.


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26949385 - 09/22/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
No German plans for an organized holocaust by gas and cremation of Jews...



You missed the last part:
... "have ever been found"

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The death camps were in fact work camps...



You missed the last part:
... "Auschwitz was the site of Germany's essential artificial rubber factory. Germany was desperate for a work force."

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
"This doesn't sound unreasonable to me..."

Is this really the hill you want to die on?



You need to show that plans for an organized holocaust have been found, and I need to show that Jews were used to help the German workforce.

Does that sound about right?  Should we do this "battle"?





Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
You're acting like all he said was that there was no paper document signed by Hitler found detailing the Final Solution, which is true..."

Auschwitz was a massive facility consisting of many "camps". Some of these camps employed Nazi workers, who produced rubber and other goods.



Thank you Nonagon for making Shivas die on my hill.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DNC Caught Political HeadHunting - Bannon [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26949388 - 09/22/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Look, if anyone who questions the official narrative is a holocaust denier, then I'll agree Roberts is a holocaust denier.  That's a silly definition if you ask me.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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