Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible?
    #26947487 - 09/21/20 09:49 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

i thought this needed it's own thread - not attached to any specific idea.

there's the contradictory and nonsensical logically impossible and imaginary, and then the logically possible that's "far out" and not something that's ordinarily encountered, that most can't bring themselves to believe could ever happen, yet it is logically possible, even if it is imaginary.

what makes something "really" impossible vs. just impossible?  if when something doesn't conform to your established ideas about how the world works, do you consider that thing to be logically impossible or can you consider it to be logically possible despite the fact that it may be radically different then the way you currently entertain the world as it is?



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKmacmo
The aborted pin
Other


Registered: 08/14/19
Posts: 1,675
Loc: Central hemisphere
Last seen: 7 hours, 4 minutes
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #26947540 - 09/21/20 10:23 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Really impossible and just impossible are the same thing to me atleast.
There are boundarys (like psychics) that we are constrained to.
For example I believe its impossible for someone to throw a golf ball into space.

But some things we think to be impossible maybe are actually possible we just haven't figured it out yet... As time goes on and things change more and more will be in the possible spectrum.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26947595 - 09/21/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If something is obnoxiously persistently wrong, then, if you say it is really impossible we know that it is not just the facts that are off, but the perpetrator of the whole line of thought has become thoroughly tiresome.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26947765 - 09/21/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
i thought this needed it's own thread - not attached to any specific idea.

there's the contradictory and nonsensical logically impossible and imaginary, and then the logically possible that's "far out" and not something that's ordinarily encountered, that most can't bring themselves to believe could ever happen, yet it is logically possible, even if it is imaginary.

what makes something "really" impossible vs. just impossible?  if when something doesn't conform to your established ideas about how the world works, do you consider that thing to be logically impossible or can you consider it to be logically possible despite the fact that it may be radically different then the way you currently entertain the world as it is?







Do you want a mathematical answer?
Or a practical everyday common sense answer?
Or a quantum field theory answer?
Or a PT Barnum type answer?

I knew someone who did horoscopes for race horses.
There are those who believe in free energy and spend hours mulling over it.
So it is a good question.

One way to explore it is to watch the movie
"A Beautiful Mind" *
or perhaps to put:
"reality testing"
into a search engine

* "A Beautiful Mind is a 2001 American biographical drama film based on the life of the American mathematician John Nash, a Nobel Laureate in Economics and Abel Prize winner. The film was directed by Ron Howard, from a screenplay written by Akiva Goldsman.It was inspired by the bestselling, Pulitzer Prize-nominated 1998 book of the same name by Sylvia Nasar."

"From the heights of notoriety to the depths ... , John Forbes Nash, Jr. experienced it all. A mathematical genius, he made an astonishing discovery early in his career and stood on the brink of international acclaim. But ... Nash soon found himself on a painful and harrowing journey of self-discovery ..."


Edited by laughingdog (09/21/20 01:04 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26947784 - 09/21/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Of course in the field of psychology we must consider emotionally based self deception, which makes the whole business much trickier, and is often why folks get into therapy as they can't figure it out on a strictly logical level.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsillyboy
Florida man
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 581
Loc: In the 60's
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26948638 - 09/21/20 11:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
"True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country - K. Vonnegut

“The real truth, that dare not speak itself, is that no one is in control. Absolutely no one.” ― Terence McKenna

"LSD is a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have never taken it." - Timothy Leary


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelostintimenspc
Stranger
Registered: 03/13/20
Posts: 222
Last seen: 20 hours, 3 minutes
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: psillyboy] * 1
    #26948654 - 09/21/20 11:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Something like throwing a golf ball into space... so that's just, if we had bigger arms or if space was closer.

Where as impossible is more like, becoming a plant at will.

So that one, maybe technology one day... like a device that bends light, so then, that's not really the actual thing.

Complex questions.

But then,

what is the world? It is only what you're used to. A psychedelic person knows that. So can something not unusual, but unexplainable, literally mysterious, occur?

I think it can become common that mysterious things occur.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26949540 - 09/22/20 02:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

does logic open up reality or wall it off?



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26949559 - 09/22/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

great film  :ohyeahdefinitely:


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleYellow Pants
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc: Flag
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26949681 - 09/22/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The limits of impossibility must be unknown.  It is a convenient word that works effectively for communicative and practical purposes.  Throwing a golf ball into space etc.  Then logical impossibilities like there is no square circle in existence.  Everything breaks open in the abstract though.  Ambiguity could probably manifest a square circle.  Like if a sentient circle happened to be overly rigid and conservative in its demeanor. 

What I think it boils down to is that if you are going to say that square means this and circle means that.  Then you've effectively created a thing, square circle, that cannot be through language and meaning.  How big of an accomplishment is this?  Idk.  But maybe the laws of logic aren't absolute.  How do you know that the laws of logic are absolute, at least enough to say that there under no circumstances anywhere cannot be a square circle?  Sure from our perspective and for the sake of the almighty Practicality it's works just fine.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26949713 - 09/22/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

so frequently, it seems, a position is taken, before evidence is even gathered or examined, or reason is engaged with.

may be a better post title for the topic would have been, how do you disover the truth, logic or reason? - assuming of course that an objective truth exists.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26949755 - 09/22/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
so frequently, it seems, a position is taken, before evidence is even gathered or examined, or reason is engaged with.

may be a better post title for the topic would have been, how do you disover the truth, logic or reason? - assuming of course that an objective truth exists.




exactly if the topic interests you must question your own assumptions
and your main assumption is that the human mind can contain a single truth that will give you certainty

this is contradicted within quantum theory itself
this is contradicted by trying to harmonize quantum theory with general relativity theory
this is contradicted by working on the self with psychology, while also understanding the ordinary conception of self is flawed

The desire for certainty is what all religions (except Taoism & Buddhism) use to hook people.
Jihadists die a happy death, blowing themselves up and killing others, because they are CERTAIN as regards all sorts of nonsense.

In everyday life we do some reality testing constantly and unconsciously.
Sometimes when we go up stairs, while thinking of something else, we take an extra step, and almost lose balance for a moment. The brain was predicting an extra step, and these constant hidden almost instant predictions, just got revealed.

If we are having some creative fun in our lives that's about as good as it gets.

Certainty is a mirage, and a booby prize.
Same goes for a lot of belief.

Funny...maybe the question should not be:
"What don't you understand about NO?"
But:
"What don't you understand about FUN?"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26950269 - 09/22/20 10:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
i thought this needed it's own thread - not attached to any specific idea.

there's the contradictory and nonsensical logically impossible and imaginary, and then the logically possible that's "far out" and not something that's ordinarily encountered, that most can't bring themselves to believe could ever happen, yet it is logically possible, even if it is imaginary.





Well one could make the question more manageable by asking: "Are some of the things I think I know possibly false?", or even: "Do I act as if certain things are true that I really know are not true?" and: "Are some of the things I doubt as being true, possibly true?"

So yes we act as though objects are solid, but we know they are not. We depend upon our senses, but they are all very limited, and very approximate and stitched together in the brain to project an outward perception that we take for 'reality', but which both being a combination and only an interpretation, must actually be a distortion. (the 2nd question)

Some conspiracy theories like the 'hollow earth' and the 'flat earth' theories are both stupid and crazy, but to think all conspiracy theories are crazy is to ignore what we know about big tobacco, and many other abuses, by big corporations that result in the deaths of thousands, and suffering of many more. (the 3rd question).

If we look at the history of medicine and science it is highly likely, that some of our beliefs are false. As more than 50% of folks think they are better than average drivers, we again realize the 1st question has been answered.

So as regards this example how much do you think is possible or right?



and does this alter anyones views?
Public Schools, the Fixation of Belief, and Social Control


Edited by laughingdog (09/22/20 11:35 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
Smurf real estate agent
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26950488 - 09/23/20 04:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

By having thoughts I rationalize my opinions about things that are possible or impossible. Basically I have a chat with myself. That's why everyone has different opinions, I suspect they all do something similar


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26950855 - 09/23/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

"There's two kinds of people. Those who have had a bad interaction with cops and those who haven't got their turn"

there are a few more
for example

those who pay off the cops
and
and those who use the cops to do their dirty work

at least that seems to be what movies teach us

then there are the cops' families etc.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
Smurf real estate agent
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26950860 - 09/23/20 10:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Cool well send me a PM about my signature next time rather than making an off topic post


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26950874 - 09/23/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

mmm...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26950890 - 09/23/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Is ACAB real or imaginary?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Rahz]
    #26950929 - 09/23/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

had to look it up

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ACAB&t=h_&ia=web

as it seems to be a generalization
I would counter generalize that it is not always true

However I prefer not to spend my time with cops ... or mafia, or government types

generally (seems to me) folks more into creativity than control are pleasanter, in fact there is probably a direct correlation.
Unfortunately sometimes very authoritative people necessary.
But for hanging out, I would choose creative types.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #26951280 - 09/23/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

in The Center of the Cyclone John C. Lily talks about meta-beliefs.  the idea that there are no real limits, is an example of a meta-belief - the idea that we can transcend what we think is possible by examining and transcening our beliefs.

in this sense, related to the mind and reality,  perceiving of doing something could be equivalent to actually doing it.  our capacity for insight without reason or observations - our intuitions - are as much of a component of thinking as logic.  knowing without knowing.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26951372 - 09/23/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
...
in this sense, related to the mind and reality,  perceiving of doing something could be equivalent to actually doing it.



that depends on your perceptions while doing something, and there is no guarantee that you are paying attention while doing it.
In any case, whatever your mental contents are (paying attention or not), that is your experience.
Many things in the reality being experienced can be ignored, so I do not equate mental contents to reality, but they are related.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:our capacity for insight without reason or observations - our intuitions - are as much of a component of thinking as logic.  knowing without knowing.



thinking, remembering, knowing, intuition are all in a flash mental events, everything in mind that is not of this type, is a sequential effort, like composing these comments, mental choreography.
The logic in it is intuitive word work (a series of 'in a flash' word findings) as I revisit the issue.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26951386 - 09/23/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

long ago it was said practicing by visualizing basket ball shots resulted in the same improvement as actual practice -- no idea if its true or not
may depend on visualiztion skills
and or level of talent to start with

on the other hand
anti vaxers have had their kids die
from refusal to use vacines known to work
and religious snake handlers to die from bites
and fire walkers
get inconsistant results

some can go into deep hypnosis
some not
some lucid dream
some don't

doesn't seem to be a 'one size' fits all


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26955401 - 09/26/20 01:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Epistemological blind spots (insufficiency and incapacity) are both very, very real! Unknown unknowns!

You cannot know what you cannot know!


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26956728 - 09/26/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

there may be philosophical answers (as to what we know, or can know)
and
there may be psychological answers
and there are scientific discoveries waiting to be made
but as wiki leaks & Edward Snowden showed us
at the level of basic political/economic/world affairs,
we may be both, and/or ignorant & mislead as regards accurate knowledge or truth
for instance info like this that is filtered out by the news media



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #26957240 - 09/27/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Reality at its core is subjective, once we get past this as the starting point it gets easier.

Having said that and to try to answer OP's question, I think being able to sort out what is real and what is imaginary requires us to be careful observers and to draw conclusions only after many repeated observations. If someone else is able to corroborate your observations then that helps too.

Additionally one must be careful of personal biases and to not let these colour our observations and skew our interpretations.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26957349 - 09/27/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
one must be careful of personal biases and to not let these colour our observations and skew our interpretations.




That's impossible in practice I believe. To some extent we are armed by old beliefs that become shattered by new insights.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePanziani
Stranger
Registered: 09/26/20
Posts: 4
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26957488 - 09/27/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Nice thread. I alos plan to visit Divided's question/thread about culturual yin and yang shifts, but I landed here first.....


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleYellow Pants
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc: Flag
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Panziani]
    #26957543 - 09/27/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I think we're always in bias.  Although we can agree that a given building is 50 feet high based on a tape measure and eyesight.  :facepalm:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26957678 - 09/27/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

until you lose all sense of proportion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26957819 - 09/27/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Wave-particle duality & uncertainty give reference to discrepancy between observations, despite the fits of face-palming and nausea expressed by conservatives.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Buster_Brown] * 2
    #26958004 - 09/27/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

Warrk said:
one must be careful of personal biases and to not let these colour our observations and skew our interpretations.




That's impossible in practice I believe. To some extent we are armed by old beliefs that become shattered by new insights.




Actually you are right, it is not possible to eradicate biases and these always colour our interpretations. Maybe in the rare event of ego death during a mega dose of shrooms we might briefly see things as they really are perhaps?

I should have been more careful with my wording to recommend being aware of our biases and taking these into account when interpreting the data and drawing conclusions.

This YT video by Prof. Donald Hoffman is great in explaining perceptions and reality... I love the example of the Australian jewel beetle!



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26958424 - 09/28/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's true that bias is an integral part of our mental make up, but being able to see a bias and adjust is also in that tool box. I think it's interesting because that tool tends to be "invisible", generally pushed to the surface when there is great need, otherwise surfing along on our biases is the norm. But if one intentionally holds that tool the biases begin to show themselves quickly. It may not be pleasant, but it's just a matter of priorities that make it worthwhile or not, and knowing is half the battle.

I suppose there will always be some biases, but perhaps the ones we are ready to deal with are the ones that percolate.

Or maybe it will open a can of cognitive dissonance we aren't ready for? :satansmoking:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26961654 - 09/30/20 09:18 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I enjoyed Donald Hoffman's talk.
However he seems to box himself into a corner though, when he denies the reality of space and time, near the end, yet thinks science and math can solve the puzzle of reality.
Why?
Because, explaining make use of causality,
and causality
depends upon time.

The guy at the end, (the TED host?), seems to have missed this point, which I think is the crucial point, or objection.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26961782 - 09/30/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I would say it does box one into a corner simply to declare that space and time don't really exist. I think what people really mean when they say this is that they are relative dimensions that can be transcended. In other words, for practical purposes they exist well enough, but are not fundamental or final.

Incidentally, there are several branches of mathematics that do not depend on linear causality. For example, there are several nonlinear algebras that posit acausal rather than causal premises.

I think you are right that causality depends upon time, or you could even say that time depends on causality, which has a slightly different meaning. In any case, linear causality is repudiated by quantum theory, which is showing us that dimensions beyond time go far beyond human concepts of causality.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26961813 - 09/30/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It seems to me machinery with gears, pulleys, &  levers, like clocks depends on causality. And so does language with its grammar and tenses.
And reason depends on grammatical language as opposed to gibberish.

Without effects that are consistent and predictable, would seem anything is equally possible.
Seems even quantum theory 'wants' entanglement etc. to be predictably possible and consistent.

When we can't nail things down, the way we can with billiard balls, we use statistics.

So I take your word for it that some strange ideas about these things exist, but have no idea if they are just a fantasy. " Acausal premises" sounds like an oxymoron.


Edited by laughingdog (09/30/20 11:18 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26961814 - 09/30/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I would not be comfortable saying any of that.

time and space and gravity and fields all truly exist, and they can interplay in ways that are not expected under certain conditions, few of which impinge on anything in the scale of our lives.

working with the equations, you mentioned and with instruments, yet to be invented, we may eventually discover useful and amazing things, but so far all I see is confusion and intellectual intimidation, or outright flakiness depending on how many god particles someone has swallowed.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26961834 - 09/30/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
It seems to me machinery with gears, pulleys, &  levers, like clocks depends on causality. And so does language with its grammar and tenses.
And reason depends on grammatical language as opposed to gibberish.

Without effects that are consistent and predictable, would seem anything is equally possible.
Seems even quantum theory 'wants' entanglement etc. to be predictably possible and consistent.

When we can't nail things down, the way we can with billiard balls, we use statistics.

So I take your word for it that some strange ideas about these things exist, but have no idea if they are just a fantasy. " Acausal premises" sounds like an oxymoron.





Yes, perhaps acausal premises is an oxymoron, but it's more or less accurate. The biggest problem with a dependence on causality in the sciences, especially physics, is the reliance on calculus.  Newtonian calculus is explicitly linear, and explicitly causal.

Now, beginning in the early 1900s, physicists discovered what could only be called "acausal" phenomena in the quantum realm. However, they continued to do the math using calculus. This has continued until today. There are outliers like chaos theory and some pure math that go well beyond this, but physics is mired in contradiction.

It is possible to address non-causal phenomena with mathematics, but not with calculus. We also do not necessarily need to rely on the classical statistical approaches. Some scientists have been working on non-linear algebras in order to reconcile quantum theory, relativity, and our math, but so far calculus reigns supreme.

I can tell you we've got our heads up our asses as long as we use calculus in cutting-edge physics. A lot of mathematicians are quite well aware of this. What we are doing is trying to explain acausal theory (quantum mechanics) and nonlinear theory (relativity) with cumbersome, linear systems. It don't work. But that doesn't mean we can't go a lot farther with math, eventually.

Just one more branch of society where man is stuck in the muck.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26961837 - 09/30/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I would not be comfortable saying any of that.

time and space and gravity and fields all truly exist, and they can interplay in ways that are not expected under certain conditions, few of which impinge on anything in the scale of our lives.

working with the equations, you mentioned and with instruments, yet to be invented, we may eventually discover useful and amazing things, but so far all I see is confusion and intellectual intimidation, or outright flakiness depending on how many god particles someone has swallowed.





Well okay. I don't disagree with anything you've said. Physics over the last 50 years deserves a little credit. But not much, as you point out.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26961887 - 09/30/20 12:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I guess you have to be a mathematician to see if anything useful comes out of what you claim.
As I say language (and therefore reason) depends on rules you claim can be violated, with good results.
As I say even quantum theory wants entanglement (etc.) to work everyday, not just on alternate Thursdays.
People who talk schizophrenese often end up locked up. But people who invent untestable string theories get government grants. I guess that proves something.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26961984 - 09/30/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

bullshit baffles brains


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26962211 - 09/30/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

just replace the words imaginary or impossible in the thread title with bullshit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26962650 - 09/30/20 07:06 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

"just replace the words imaginary or impossible in the thread title with bullshit."

In that case the difference is determined by smell.

Considering that much of what is felt to be reality is determined by culture or social agreement - (the value of pieces of paper called money being a good example) - it is perhaps often good to remember the story of "the emperor's clothes" before deciding whether or not to play along with the game.

Like a game of musical chairs, one doesn't want to be caught out when the music stops.

Its tricky being a social animal.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26962867 - 09/30/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

by examining bodily excrements does it become any easier to call what is real into question?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26963062 - 09/30/20 10:50 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26963346 - 10/01/20 06:22 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

wash hands frequently. wear a mask.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26963376 - 10/01/20 07:12 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

yeah and if you don't have a mask buy one now and get the best you can get

google it or something


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26963387 - 10/01/20 07:28 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

life in a bubble:




--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #26963408 - 10/01/20 07:58 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
I enjoyed Donald Hoffman's talk.
However he seems to box himself into a corner though, when he denies the reality of space and time, near the end, yet thinks science and math can solve the puzzle of reality.
Why?
Because, explaining make use of causality,
and causality
depends upon time.

The guy at the end, (the TED host?), seems to have missed this point, which I think is the crucial point, or objection.




I'm glad you like it laughingdog, Hoffman is one of my favourite deep thinkers to listen to.

The illusion of space-time is not a new concept, the mystics and almost anyone who has dosed on shrooms might concur that space and time are not fundamental reality.

To make sense of everything, the person who I have been following for many years is Tom Campbell. He is a remarkable guy not just for his Theory Of Everything but his apparent non-ordinary abilities... he is the Merlin or Gandalf of our times in my estimation.

If anyone else is interested, there is a fundraiser project that has raised over $200,000 to scientifically test Campbell's theory that we are living in a virtual reality:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/simulation/do-we-live-in-a-virtual-reality

And Campbell's YouTube channel is a smorgasbord of fascinating videos on physics, the paranormal, love, and what it all means:

https://www.youtube.com/user/twcjr44

It must be 10 years or more than I have been following Tom Campbell and I have yet to find errors or contradictions in his ideas and presentations. He is absolutely 1 in a billion, he is without equal.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26963421 - 10/01/20 08:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

According to Wikipedia, “Upon completion of My Big TOE, Campbell sent copies of the book to leading physicists, and fellow scientists, but received little response. This prompted Campbell to forgo enlisting support from “the top”, in favor of reaching out to lay audiences as a better way to share and spread his ideas about consciousness and the nature of reality.”


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26963432 - 10/01/20 08:24 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I've read Campbell's Wikipedia entry too redgreenvine, if you were to make a judgement on the guy based on what Wikipedia has to say I would understand where you are coming from but would be disappointed that you don't feel compelled to dig deeper and get to something that has incredible explanatory power.

Many years ago I sent Campbell's material to a professor of theoretical physics who is a friend of mine for his feedback and critique. I don't think he could be bothered reading much of the stuff. Campbell is too revolutionary for most academics, he turns conventional physics on its head with his conclusions yet he was able to penetrate further than what Einstein was grappling with for so long without success.

I persevered with Campbell and am glad that I did even though a lot of of the information is hard to swallow and smacks you in the face. But it makes sense now the longer I let is sit and to let it permeate my consciousness...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk] * 2
    #26963459 - 10/01/20 08:46 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

This looks like an interesting paper as a follow up to my previous post:

https://ijqf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/IJQF2017v3n3p2.pdf


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk] * 1
    #26963468 - 10/01/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

what you think of as revolutionary is not necessarily a revolution of intelligence over insanity.

the main error that I see is a proposition for simulation with no simulator that is not simulated. It is an Ouroboros proposition without functional evidence.

That is not to say that Ouroboric concepts are bad, I think of standing waves as ouroboric and that may be close to what time+gravity fields are made of; but it is magical thinking through and through which is why physicists are not humoring Campbell.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26963525 - 10/01/20 09:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I think you are wrong redgreenvines because you don’t understand Campbell’s version of the Simulation Hypothesis. And the error you have pointed out is taken care of by Campbell, it is after all a Theory of Everything. A brief explanation in my own words is that the subset can never comprehend the superset. The simulator can never be understood because it is outside our realm of existence just as Donkey Kong, Mario and Pacman can never know who wrote the code for the game they feature in.  But that is not reason to refute the existence of a code writer.

If you read the paper above you will see that 2 physicists, from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (California Institute of Technology) no less, are co-authors with Campbell.

You are on the right path by being skeptical my friend, that is the way which Campbell urges us to be. The best thing about Campbell’s TOE is that it is experiential and you can put it to the test yourself, it isn’t mere theory.

I bring up Campbell’s TOE here for those who are interested in exploring big picture stuff.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26963612 - 10/01/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

The analogy of donkey kong does not wash as an explanation.
the characters are us, and we do understand digital computing if we try the slightest.

Also by declaring that the simulation is beyond understanding, you and he are closing off science and writing a new bible in which you use "SIM" as a nonbinary pronoun for "GOD".


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26963660 - 10/01/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Any analogy is never perfect. I guess I could choose another game and another character, one that is not played by a human being but no doubt someone will find fault with that too.

Tom is my hero anyway, I don't mind saying that.

And there are a series of experiments that will test his theory so it doesn't really matter what we think or if we agree or not.

What is your area of expertise btw redgreenvines? What is the highest level of education you have achieved, and in what field?

I like your skepticism but I think you are still wrong, if only you invested time in digging into the material and digesting it instead of debating the subject without understanding it. When you have read the book or listened to 2 hours of any of Campbell's presentations that would impress me rather than making hasty conclusions... your second paragraph troubles me on a number of fronts and all I can really say at this point is that you don't get it yet. I think you will though eventually when you put in the hours and do the hard yards. It is easy being an armchair critic and everyone these days has an opinion on everything.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26963687 - 10/01/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I was a biochemist and molecular biologist with majors in neurophysiology. BSc. Then I was a supervisor of construction and built subdivisions of houses. Then self trained computer software developer for 35 years specializing in video interfaces, computer animation as well as computer vision. I have most recently worked on banking projects related to ADA conformance.

Now I am mostly a shroomer.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26963729 - 10/01/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

many times when I have been on mushrooms I have thought it is my favorite drugs

it is that good

3 good:

mushroom tea

strong mushrooms

oral dmt

...

:laugh:

I have found painting to be most effective in terms of how one has it

except finding one's way things like lsd

and redgreenvines


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk]
    #26963757 - 10/01/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

So the experiments which are proposed in the link provided are elaborations of the double slit experiment.

My position about the whole class of double slit experiments is that they are corrupted by insertion of particle detectors or counters - the declared Observer. The effect of the declared observer collapses the wave to a particle and prevents the nice interference pattern produced by the wave interaction. This is misinterpreted to declare (two assumptions without proof) that the consciousness of the observer, who may not even know he is the observer at the time of the experiment, collapses the wave ERGO CONSCIOUSNESS collapses the wave,

nah ah uh!
too many assumptions followed by a plethora of prowess in multi variate equations.

Yes you can produce math that models reality. no not all math models reality, and some math can be mistaken for reality while it merely stands alone in its perfection as a beautifully stated and balanced equation.

I am unmoved by your hero. and I find little experimental support in his proposed double slit enhancements for his theory of simulation.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Warrk] * 1
    #26963821 - 10/01/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

A Google Books preview of Tom Campbell's My Big TOE (theory of everything) Link





Edited by Buster_Brown (10/01/20 01:05 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26963883 - 10/01/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

when Einstein said that space and time as we experience them are illusions, he did not mean what is proposed in this big toe.

He meant that we have convinced ourselves that aspects of space and time are fixed while they are actually relative. He meant that in a fundamental way. illusion does not mean completely illusory or simulated. this taken out of context as well as the double slit experiments taken out of context leads to the whole sloppy big toe stubfest.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26964061 - 10/01/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
when Einstein said that space and time as we experience them are illusions, he did not mean what is proposed in this big toe.

He meant that we have convinced ourselves that aspects of space and time are fixed while they are actually relative. He meant that in a fundamental way. illusion does not mean completely illusory or simulated. this taken out of context .....




:thumbup: Sounds about right

.    Also Hoffman ignores the fundamental issue, that Buddha addressed 2500 years ago: What about the reality, or what about our notions of what "the self" or "self" is?

.    I will not repeat what is easily found on the net, or what has been posted on this subject here dozens of times already. I just wish to point out that if we are not what/who we think we are, then the whole question of what 'the reality' is that THIS self perceives, would seem to be sort of moot.
.  That no one has apparently ever pointed this out to him seems strange. Then again maybe not, as he would most likely just resent it, as he wants to show he can both answer these questions ( about consciousness, evolution, & reality) for the first time and do so mathematically.
.    Never-the-less I like his desktop metaphor, explanation of fitness, and beetle example.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWarrk
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,623
Re: how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary or impossible? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26964705 - 10/01/20 08:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That's an interesting background redgreenvines. I have a similar education history in the biological sciences with a smattering of physics and mathematics undergraduate courses thrown in for the thrill of it, then went on to do a PhD.

I want to go back to this statement of yours:

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Also by declaring that the simulation is beyond understanding, you and he are closing off science and writing a new bible in which you use "SIM" as a nonbinary pronoun for "GOD".




This is not what Campbell is on about, he is not trying to create a new cult and for people to have faith in his theory. Instead he urges us all to be skeptical yet to remain open-minded, and to test things out ourselves. This theory is not about blind faith.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Objective, real, imaginary... same thing Ulysees 1,536 15 02/10/02 01:11 AM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* Boundaries - Drawing Arbitrary Lines Around Groups
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,030 30 07/04/02 08:22 AM
by hongomon
* Reality isn't real
( 1 2 3 all )
ShroomismM 4,943 43 09/24/06 03:01 PM
by Telepylus
* Why God MUST be real
( 1 2 3 4 all )
plague member 7,502 74 09/14/01 02:30 PM
by CACA
* What is "real"?
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 5,130 40 01/20/04 03:19 PM
by PHARMAKOS
* "If you please-- draw me a sheep..." mntlfngrs 665 3 07/12/03 02:54 AM
by mntlfngrs
* Is Life after Death for real?
( 1 2 3 all )
stoner2002 3,269 48 12/23/14 04:33 AM
by Alyssa
* Is Real Change Possible?
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 2,396 44 11/12/03 10:53 AM
by Evolving

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,415 topic views. 0 members, 12 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.045 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.