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OfflineDrCobalt
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Psilocybin tincture revisited
    #26944451 - 09/19/20 03:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hi All

I friend of mine in CO is interested in a mushroom tincture. She is no chemist and would be looking to use "household" items. I know that this topic has been brought up a lot over many years, but things change and knowledge evolves (as in the case of magic crystals) so I am hoping bringing this up again and hope it doesn't bother anyone and maybe create some info for 2020.

My friend understands that a chloroform &/or acetone washed methanol extraction process could yield better results but that is beyond her experience & comfort range.  She is looking for simple tek using ethanol (Everclear 150 or 190) or maybe acetic acid that can have good non-refridgerated shelf life. What can be done to make such a tincture more stable? She has seen references to the use of citric acid but that is also said to help convert psilocybin to psilocin which is less stable than psylocybin... Clearly she doesn't know what she is talking about.

Can anyone help steer her in the right direction?


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: DrCobalt]
    #26944614 - 09/19/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

190 proof ethanol is about as stable as you need to get.

And it's a bit confusing whether you're looking to get crystals or a tincture (you mention crystals and acetone washes).  If all you want is a tincture, simply soak powdered mushroom bits in ethanol.  Strain.  Have tincture.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Forrester]
    #26944818 - 09/19/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thnx

A tincture is all she's looking for.  I thought that the crystal thing had been debunked - as pertains to a simple ethanol tek - when PF thought he found psyche-diamonds.  What about the citric acid, would it be beneficial in preserving actives or detrimental?

What might you imagine the self life to be in a dark glass bottle but not in a fridge... Days? Weeks? Months? Years?

And what about damage from heat if the decoction is to be reduced? Is there significant loss of potency if the volume of the soak were reduced to 1/4 or 1/10 Original size?  Might adding glycerin and boiling out the ethanol help prevent oxidation?

Lastly, my friend has an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner.  Might that be helpful in breaking down cellular walls of the dried tissue.?  Can a 190 proof alcohol solution be used in an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner without blowing one up?  Do I ask too many questions?

I appreciate the info


Edited by DrCobalt (09/19/20 08:07 PM)


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InvisibleAchuma
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: DrCobalt]
    #26944937 - 09/19/20 09:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think you're going to get good results from extracting multiple times into room temp or slightly warm ethanol (heat will activate enzymes that break down psilocybin into psilocin, which has a reduced shelf-life).  By extracting multiple times I mean to filter the mushroom material out, then add more ethanol, and repeat this a few times.  With water, this wouldn't be necessary because of the solubility being so high, but with ethanol you're going to want a few extractions to get it dissolved.  Then take your pooled ethanol extract, and evaporate it by pouring it on to a plate (a pie baking dish is great because it has high walls) and pointing a fan at it, without heating.  You don't want to evaporate it to dryness, but evaporate it down to the volume you want it to be.  If you do end up evaporating to dryness, you'll have trouble getting it back into solution without heating the ethanol, which then negates the strategy of not heating it.

Be careful evaporating ethanol, as of course it is flammable.

I haven't tried this exact method, but I have extracted into methanol and evaporated to dryness, then extracted into acidic water, which worked OK.


--------------------
Achuma's Psilocybe Extraction Pictorial


Pictured: crystalline extract derived from Psilocybe Cubensis.  See link for detailed instructions, as well as a lengthy discussion on the properties of light.


Edited by Achuma (09/19/20 09:04 PM)


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Achuma]
    #26945508 - 09/20/20 04:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:whathesaid:

I'd skip the jewelry cleaner and the glycerin, there's really no need to overcomplicate things and introduce a step that's just gonna mess something up.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Forrester]
    #26945528 - 09/20/20 05:23 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Great info. Thnx Achuma & Forrester

So the ultrasonic bath won't help the ethanol get more out of the cell walls to any significant amount?  I had thought it had a harder time getting things out of cells than h2O...

How much heat/time poses a threat to evaporation of the ethanol solution.  My friend has a reptile heating pad that goes up to 108f - could that help or maybe not worth it?

How about the effect of citric acid - could this be protective or make it less stable?

Sorry if I seem to be insisting on making this more complicated than it needs to be.  My friend is just trying to put in perspective previous fragments of possible disinformation she has encountered in researching this.

Thnx again for the help


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: DrCobalt]
    #26945557 - 09/20/20 06:13 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DrCobalt said:
So the ultrasonic bath won't help the ethanol get more out of the cell walls to any significant amount?  I had thought it had a harder time getting things out of cells than h2O...





Just grinding the dried mushrooms into a fine powder will do all you need to break up the cell walls so the ethanol can get everything into solution.  And the reptile pad would seem ideal to me, just enough to get it warm, but I'll let Achuma correct if I'm wrong as he seems to have more experience than me with Psilocybe extraction in particular.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleAchuma
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Forrester]
    #26946150 - 09/20/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that powdering the dried mushrooms should be sufficient.  Ultrasonic bath would in this case would probably help just for agitation.  Reptile pad would be a good option for maintaining a warm extraction, but be careful not to spill ethanol on it for fire safety reasons.


--------------------
Achuma's Psilocybe Extraction Pictorial


Pictured: crystalline extract derived from Psilocybe Cubensis.  See link for detailed instructions, as well as a lengthy discussion on the properties of light.


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Achuma]
    #26947484 - 09/21/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thnx Forrester & Achuma


Before she learned to be wary of heat damaging the tincture, my friend's (theoretic) plan was to extract with 1 liter of a 190 proof everclear and then heat the solution at <200F degrees to boil off the alcohol and push the actives into the remaining water and then top off with glycerin and basically make it a glycerite of maybe around 15ml in volume.

If my friend evaporates down the 190 proof tincture solution with a fan with moderately Applied heat via the reptile pad at, say 100F to approximately 25% original volume, what might the proof of the resulting liquid be?  Would a greater percentage of alcohol be lost resulting in a higher percentage of water?
She is looking for the greatest stability and self life at the smallest volume.  What could she realistically achieve?


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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InvisibleAchuma
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: DrCobalt]
    #26947997 - 09/21/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If it's 190 proof, and you are at sea level, then the resulting proof of the tincture will also be 190 proof.  At 95% ethanol 5% water (well, it's 95.63% ethanol and 4.37% water), water and ethanol cannot be separated by distillation or evaporation.


--------------------
Achuma's Psilocybe Extraction Pictorial


Pictured: crystalline extract derived from Psilocybe Cubensis.  See link for detailed instructions, as well as a lengthy discussion on the properties of light.


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Achuma]
    #26948129 - 09/21/20 04:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thnx, good to know that evaporation of water and alcohol is basically the same.


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Achuma]
    #26949440 - 09/22/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

How much more or less effective would be 151 proof alcohol be? I'm curious because water seems pretty good at extraction, no?  Does the water inhibit the effectiveness of alcohol?


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Achuma]
    #26949453 - 09/22/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

And what would the addition of citric acid do? Would it be more or less stable and have a negative effect on shelf life?  Is there anything one can so to increase shelf life?

(sorry for splitting my questions up across multiple posts. This noob is trying to get his post count up so he can see Achuma's pictorial)


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: DrCobalt]
    #26949510 - 09/22/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I prefer 151 proof or less for most of my extractions for that reason - there's more water in it to extract water solubles. 

But I'm not usually extracting actives.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Forrester]
    #26949929 - 09/22/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I am not really familiar with all the things of interest as to what one would like to get out of the mushrooms in question and to which is soluble in what.  I have dabbled in kratom tincture making and know that some things of interest are soluble in water, some in citric acid and others in alcohol as well as things in other solvents. So there is a lot of resoaking material in different solvents. I have also seen discussions of the impeded effectiveness of wet ethanol as opposed to pure in the case of magic mushrooms.

So I guess the question is if my friend in interested in only actives, is 190 proof better than 150 proof if she is just going with a simple evaporated tincture.


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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OfflineDrCobalt
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Achuma]
    #26949933 - 09/22/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

D'Oh!

I thought that is was 14 days OR 10 posts for access to the pictorial... It is 14 days AND 10 posts


--------------------
"Some people are afraid of new ideas... I'm afraid or the old ones."
    - John Cage


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OfflineShadowLite
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Re: Psilocybin tincture revisited [Re: Achuma]
    #28118354 - 12/31/22 03:39 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Just an fiy. evaporation and distillation of alcohol will not dry it because of the azeotrope formed. To dry these solvents you should take epsom salt and bake in oven for around 1 hour and place resulting expanded MgSo4 into solvent which will make it anhydrous


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