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Invisiblebob5

Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 1,391
Questions about tyramine interactions with a MAOI? {ayahuasca}
    #26944319 - 09/19/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hi,
I've given it a lot of thought and I've reached a point in my life that I'm ready for an ayahuasca experience and to experiment further with DMT.
I am stuck at the diet restrictions however, and have a couple of questions.

Is tyramine the only dangerous thing in food to avoid when taking a MAOI such as harmamine?
How long before and after dosing does the diet need to be followed?
(Is it really two weeks restrictions required after a single trip? or is that only when taking a MAOI daily?)

--
Re: tyramine;
* Is whey protein powder ok? If not, chicken and eggs for protein I suppose.?
*  Apparently caffeinated beverages contain it too.. and 'limits are recommended'
How limited are we talking? I don't fancy caffeine withdrawal right now.. but if that's what it takes I'm willing. (this includes instant coffee I guess??:facepalm:?)

Thanks for any advise.
B5


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Invisiblebob5

Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 1,391
Re: Questions about tyramine interactions with a MAOI? {ayahuasca} [Re: bob5] * 1
    #26944348 - 09/19/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I saw this post on the Shroomery from 5 years ago.
It basically says that the extensive MAOI advise is only for prescription MAOIs and not harmaline from caapi or syrian rue..: Due to the tyramine problem being a chronic build up of tyramine. (not acute)

----------------------
"

Reversable MAOis don't need a strict diets. The reason people on nonreversable MAOI (I.e., prescription)  diets is that MAOis do prevent the body from breaking down tyramine, which at high level can cause health problems. Being reversible MAOI are only active for a short period of time, tyramine can't build up.  It makes sense perhaps that while you are on the reversable MAOI, that you limit the tyramine consumption.... So don't eat foods rich in tyramine right before or after drinking Aya, b caapi or Syrian rue...

So,'Google 'foods high in tyramine' and avoid those a few hours before and during your MAOI ingestion.

"
----------------------

^Is this good advise?


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OfflineSabnock
Be Your Own Shaman
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Registered: 01/02/14
Posts: 3,252
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Questions about tyramine interactions with a MAOI? {ayahuasca} [Re: bob5] * 1
    #26944363 - 09/19/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Saw this post the other day when talking about this subject - "When it comes to MAOI's there exists a couple of varieties. Harmine and harmaline are classified as reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase A (RIMA) which is a sub category of MAOI. One which selectively binds to and inhibits the function of monamaine oxidase A (MAO-A) over monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B). Both enzymes are responsible for metabolizing tyramine but since the harmala alkaloids bind selectively to MAO-A over MAO-B, the latter enzyme is still left free to break down tyramine so that the risk of a hypertensive crises occurring after ingesting tyramine rich foods is reduced.

On top of this harmine and harmaline bind reversibly to MAO-A. Meaning that in the presence of tyramine the harmala alkaloids will be displaced from the enzymes active site by tyramine allowing for it's breakdown by the MAO-A as well as the MAO-B. It is because of this reversibility and selectivity to the MAO-A enzyme that the risk of having a tyramine mediated hypertensive crises is reduced in comparison to MAOI's which bind to both A and B enzymes irreversibly."

If you are unsure, and just want to be cautious anyways, simply don't eat anything 2 to 4 hours before and 2 to 4 hours after taking the Harmalas, gut MAO-A inhibition is only active for maybe an hour, to an hour and a half, to two hours max with Harmalas, and plus you probably wouldn't want to eat anyways for a few hours after taking the Harmalas, but ime with the reverse tolerance built up and the nausea/vomiting gone away, i can eat just fine before, with or right after taking Harmalas and never noticed any dietary-related issues.

Some people say they get a headache from Harmalas and put it down to eating cheese, but i assure you, there's a major difference between a Harmala headache and a Tyramine-related migraine/hypertensive crisis, plus Harmalas in general can cause headaches sometimes because of some of it's other properties like vasodilation and Acetylcholinesterase inhibition, plus the rise in Noradrenaline through activation of the Adrenergic A2A receptor, which can lower blood pressure can also cause a headache, like Clonidine can for example, but vaosdilation in general can lower blood pressure which can lead to a headache. And when it comes to cheese, it's usually only rare cheeses or cheese which is not usually consumed, that has high Tyramine content, regular cheese which most people eat wouldn't even be an issue anyways.


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OfflineSabnock
Be Your Own Shaman
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Registered: 01/02/14
Posts: 3,252
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Questions about tyramine interactions with a MAOI? {ayahuasca} [Re: Sabnock]
    #26944371 - 09/19/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

But yeah, there's no Tyramine reactions or dietary issues in general when it comes to Harmalas. I've taken Harmalas/Rue extremely regularly since 2012, never once noticed any sort of dietary-related issues. You're good to go on that front.


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Edited by Sabnock (09/19/20 04:46 PM)


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Invisiblebob5

Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 1,391
Re: Questions about tyramine interactions with a MAOI? {ayahuasca} [Re: Sabnock] * 1
    #26944497 - 09/19/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks very much for the information. That is reassuring.
I'm going to be experimenting with harmalas for a few months before adding any significant amount of DMT into the mix. Your posts have made this all a lot less intimidating.
The harmala headache would have caused me a lot of anxiety had you not shared also.
Appreciated.


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InvisibleMindMeower
lawnmower for the brain
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 05/10/19
Posts: 341
Re: Questions about tyramine interactions with a MAOI? {ayahuasca} [Re: bob5] * 1
    #26945056 - 09/19/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I once had a very heavy headache after consuming a bottle of beer while harmalas were still in effect, but that's been the only time I have had any problems with harmalas and foods/drinks. I tend to eat a variety of things during trips and I rarely trip without harmalas and I haven't had any problems since that once time.


--------------------
M(e)owing minds :mushroom2:


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OfflineSabnock
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Registered: 01/02/14
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Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Questions about tyramine interactions with a MAOI? {ayahuasca} [Re: MindMeower]
    #26945318 - 09/20/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MindMeower said:
I once had a very heavy headache after consuming a bottle of beer while harmalas were still in effect, but that's been the only time I have had any problems with harmalas and foods/drinks. I tend to eat a variety of things during trips and I rarely trip without harmalas and I haven't had any problems since that once time.




Yeah beer/alcohol causes vasodilation, especially beer, ime. The alcohol's vasodilative properties alongside the Harmala's vasodilative properties could potentially lead to excess vasodilation which would reduce blood pressure and could cause a headache. I've tried mixing beer, vodka, and whiskey (all separately), so far, with Harmalas a few times or so. When i first mixed alcohol with Harmalas i did notice a headache and some neck, upper back and shoulder aches/pains, things felt tight, stiff, it was a little uncomfortable and i felt like they didn't mingle well. A few months or so ago though, i experimented again and consumed beer, vodka and whiskey (all separately again) with the Harmalas after having been taking the Rue daily for months, and i'm not sure if it's because the Harmala reverse tolerance was built up and the side effects of the Harmalas were gone, or if it's because i consumed the alcohol about 2 or more hours after taking the Harmalas, but i didn't notice any alcohol-related side-effects, no headache or aches/pains. Though i never drank too much alcohol while on Harmalas, usually only a beer or 2, once i think i drank 3 beers, and usually i sip on my vodka or whiskey till i'm "good", but i'm not much of a drinker so it doesn't take me much to feel it and i try not to go overboard with it.

All in all though, i wouldn't really recommend alcohol with the Harmalas, there may not be anything harmful about it, i would think, but there's a lot more out there that can be mixed with Harmalas so i wouldn't recommend it unless one is just wanting to test some things out. Also alcohol with Psychedelics is generally not advised as people do report some weird or negative experiences that can occur from that but i know some people handle the combo fairly well.


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