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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Filtration when PC'ing bags
#26944015 - 09/19/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm looking for alternatives for filtration in my spawnbags beccause i',m suspecting my bacteria problems to be rooted in the bag filtration. It's a tyvek suit which i've cut the arms and legs off and then use them.
What do you use?
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Gan
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26944020 - 09/19/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dont your spawn bags already have a filter patch built in?
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Gan]
#26944021 - 09/19/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes but it's during the PC'ing. i don't seal the bags before cooking
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26944029 - 09/19/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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No seal, No tyvek. Fold nicely while pressing air out, load and cook. I like to deliver that bags straight out of the hood and onto the prepped flow table. Allowing the too cool sufficiently helps ensure they seal well.
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Quote:
verum subsequentis said:
No seal, No tyvek. Fold nicely while pressing air out, load and cook. I like to deliver that bags straight out of the hood and onto the prepped flow table. Allowing the too cool sufficiently helps ensure they seal well.
The bags are always sealed nicely when then come out of the PC. And i always let them sit about 12 hours after they are done cooking. I could try without the tyvek.
Do you wipe your bags down with ethanol before inoculating?
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26944044 - 09/19/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I do if i take them out and store them in unsanitary conditions before use. I don't if i deliver them straight into the flow.
If you are having recurring bacteria problems, it's most probably your agar, your sterilization or your sterile tek.
Do you have pics of your agar? How long are you sterilizing your bags and at what volume per bag? Are you venting the PC properly? Are you confident in your sterile practices?
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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I have this thread regarding contam in some bags that i have running right now.
I've made som NTC's as the thread shows and they look really good (the agar). The problems is only in the bags.
I PC 1-2kg bags for 2,5 hours and opens the PC in the room with the hood running and i put them straight on the table. The PC is venting for 10 mins before i put the weight on.
Edited by Thomsen (09/19/20 12:33 PM)
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meowjinx
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26944113 - 09/19/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thomsen said: I have this thread regarding contam in some bags that i have running right now.
I've made som NTC's as the thread shows and they look really good (the agar). The problems is only in the bags.
I PC 1-2kg bags for 2,5 hours and opens the PC in the room with the hood running and i put them straight on the table. The PC is venting for 10 mins before i put the weight on.
I've read that you need to PC bags for much longer than grain jars. Supposedly because you have all your grains lumped into your big volume, so it takes more time for the heat to penetrate into the core of the bag
This TEK says anything beyond one bag to PC for 4 hours
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12903694
It's a very old thread, but there aren't a whole lot of great grow bag TEKs that I've found, so for now I'm following that one
I use volume to measure the quantity of my grains, so I have no idea what amount 1-2 Kg of hydrated grains is in volume, but if it's more than like 3 quarts I would up my PC time if I were you
I'm doing 2 bags (6 quarts total) tonight and I plan to PC them for 4.5-5 hours. I use a Presto, which means I'll have to be babysitting it the whole time (probably my least favorite thing about bulk growing), but 5 hours is nothing compared to the weeks of time you'll lose if your bags stall due to bacteria
Edited by meowjinx (09/19/20 12:58 PM)
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: meowjinx]
#26944142 - 09/19/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's funny that 13shrooms says that it should PC for 4 hours when doing multiple bags, and afterwards refers to RR's video on preppeing bags and PC'ing sawdust substrates. In the video RR is doing 4 bags of what looks like about 2kg sawdust in a 2 hours cycle. 2,5 hours should be enough for sterilizing 4 bags of 1 kg spawn.
I've run 4 2kg sawdust bags on a 2,5 hours cycle and inoculated with Lion's Mane with good results before.
1 kg rye equals about 2,3 qts
Edited by Thomsen (09/19/20 01:11 PM)
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JHOVA
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: meowjinx]
#26944144 - 09/19/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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5 hours is nuts.
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: JHOVA]
#26944149 - 09/19/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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meowjinx
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26944546 - 09/19/20 04:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah I don't want to do it that long, but I'm doing G2G into these bags and the donorjars I'm using took forever to colonize (because very little inoculant and not enough GE), so I don't wanna take any chances w/ contams making that long wait for nothing
If someone has a reference showing that complete sterilization of 3-4 quart bags can occur within 2 hours then I'd gladly cutback
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: meowjinx]
#26944556 - 09/19/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just search the forum. I've never seen anyone PC more than 3 hours.
And just make some new masters with better GE in them.  Should take 3 weeks tops.
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meowjinx
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26944599 - 09/19/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thomsen said: Just search the forum. I've never seen anyone PC more than 3 hours.
And just make some new masters with better GE in them.  Should take 3 weeks tops.
I chose 4.5 hours after doing some searching through bag threads. Here are some of the threads I used:
This TC says that if using more than 3L of grain to do at least 2.5 or 3 hours. Since he said at least, I figured it wouldn't be out of the question to do 4 hours. Although he did not say 4 explicitly
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15158218
This TC says that @15 PSI he does 4 hours. If @17 psi he will does less. My PC usually swings between 15-20
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25054397
I'm not saying that it isn't possible to get consistently good results with 3 hours or that 4 hours is absolutely necessary. I'm just saying that I have done some research on it but did not get a clear answer, so I'm erring on the side of caution. I'm not literally waiting for 5 hours though. Towards the 4.5 hour mark I'll let it get close to 20 PSI then turn off the burner but leave the PC on top so that it stays above 15 psi for the last 30 minutes. Maybe I'll cut it down to 4 hours this time lol
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: meowjinx]
#26945270 - 09/20/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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The first thread confirms what I say.
In the second hamloaf is doing 9 bags in a aa941 pc. So yes, ofc if you do those amounts you will need to go longer.
If you plan to do that much, go ahead.
Edited by Thomsen (09/20/20 12:52 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26945319 - 09/20/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Guys, don't start timing until the PC reaches 15 psi, after venting for at least several minutes before closing the toggle or placing the weight. (you want 15 psi of steam, not compressed air)
It's totally irrelevant how long it takes to reach 15 psi. The pressure won't start climbing until the contents of the bags are at the same temperature as the steam. When pressure is reached, set timer for 90 minutes for grains. Never pop the toggle or lift the weight off to release pressure when time is reached. Allow it to slowly drop as the sterilizer cools.
As shown in Let's Grow Mushrooms, place spacers between bags to allow the steam to totally surround each individual bag. I like to use tyvek sleeves to provide for filtering, while also making it easier to open the 'sealed' bags after the pc cycle.
Obviously, if you're using less than 15 psi/121C, increase sterilization time. RR
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 364
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: RogerRabbit]
#26945335 - 09/20/20 01:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Guys, don't start timing until the PC reaches 15 psi, after venting for at least several minutes before closing the toggle or placing the weight. (you want 15 psi of steam, not compressed air)
It's totally irrelevant how long it takes to reach 15 psi. The pressure won't start climbing until the contents of the bags are at the same temperature as the steam. When pressure is reached, set timer for 90 minutes for grains. Never pop the toggle or lift the weight off to release pressure when time is reached. Allow it to slowly drop as the sterilizer cools.
As shown in Let's Grow Mushrooms, place spacers between bags to allow the steam to totally surround each individual bag. I like to use tyvek sleeves to provide for filtering, while also making it easier to open the 'sealed' bags after the pc cycle.
Obviously, if you're using less than 15 psi/121C, increase sterilization time. RR
That's exactly what i do, except i PC for 2,5 hours. I'm just bewildered about my bags getting contaminated all the time at the moment, so i'm trying to exclude as much as possible. Now the time was for the flitrations to be tested. The problems comes more to light in this thread here.
Besides for my inoculation technique when doing the bags i really don't know where it goes wrong. It's the same thing when doing jars actually.
Edited by Thomsen (09/20/20 01:26 AM)
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verum subsequentis
seeker of truth



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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26946189 - 09/20/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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hey roger, i haven't tested the limits minimal sterilization times when cramming bags with no spacers. I put one gallon of hydrated grain into each bag and cram ten of them into my 941. Many of us do this and pc for three hours (obviously after venting and reaching 15 psi).
Are you saying you actually cooked big bags (with spacers) for only 90 minutes? If this be the case, i think i could make more spawn per work hour by using spacers (which i loathe) and cutting time off the cycle. Maybe i'll try it out.
I was doing four hours when cramming but started doing just three after multiple others tried it with success.
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LotKid
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I do nine 1 gallon spawn bags per 75x. Accordion fold, no tyvek, no spacers, 2hr45min-3hr run time at pressure.
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meowjinx
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26946300 - 09/20/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thomsen said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Guys, don't start timing until the PC reaches 15 psi, after venting for at least several minutes before closing the toggle or placing the weight. (you want 15 psi of steam, not compressed air)
It's totally irrelevant how long it takes to reach 15 psi. The pressure won't start climbing until the contents of the bags are at the same temperature as the steam. When pressure is reached, set timer for 90 minutes for grains. Never pop the toggle or lift the weight off to release pressure when time is reached. Allow it to slowly drop as the sterilizer cools.
As shown in Let's Grow Mushrooms, place spacers between bags to allow the steam to totally surround each individual bag. I like to use tyvek sleeves to provide for filtering, while also making it easier to open the 'sealed' bags after the pc cycle.
Obviously, if you're using less than 15 psi/121C, increase sterilization time. RR
That's exactly what i do, except i PC for 2,5 hours. I'm just bewildered about my bags getting contaminated all the time at the moment, so i'm trying to exclude as much as possible. Now the time was for the flitrations to be tested. The problems comes more to light in this thread here.
Besides for my inoculation technique when doing the bags i really don't know where it goes wrong. It's the same thing when doing jars actually.
Have you tried doing different types of control samples?
Like, doing one where you PC it and close it without ever inoculating. Then you could do one where you "go through the motions" of inoculating but without actually dropping anything in
That could help illuminate if it's either A) your inoculant (agar or G2G donor) B) Your sterile technique or C) the grain itself
If they all contam then it could be your filters/bags themselves
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: meowjinx]
#26946315 - 09/20/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Always a good plan when facing catastrophic loss of spawn. Sometimes it pays to hit reset, take the game out and blow on it and then try anew.
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
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No grain NTC yet. I wanted to test out the filtration first to see if that made any difference. Untill now I've only testet out my aseptic technique which is fine.
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meowjinx
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26946471 - 09/20/20 04:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well the bacteria has to come from somewhere, and there's only so many places that could be. You could also consider trying antibiotic agar as another way of implementing a control
You could do multiple runs of each control just tobe "statistically" sure of which step it is. Once you find what's causing it it's just a matter of fixing it. Bada bing, bada boom. No more bacteria
Edited by meowjinx (09/20/20 04:14 PM)
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Thomsen



Registered: 09/27/19
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: meowjinx]
#26947158 - 09/21/20 02:58 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah antibiotic agar is never going to happen. No one should ever do that when growing mushrooms.
And yes, there's only so many places contam can come from, that's why I'm ruling out different things one at the time.
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Filtration when PC'ing bags [Re: Thomsen]
#26947502 - 09/21/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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A lot of folks use antibiotic agar. I have what it takes but don't really ever bust it out. I would if i had a culture that i really wanted to save but couldn't seem to get clean.
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