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OfflineLearyfanS
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Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading"
    #2694339 - 05/18/04 02:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Colin Powell has now admited that some of the reasons for war were  deliberately misleadingClick here.

CIA sources on Iraq were 'deliberately misleading,' Powell complains

Mon May 17,12:51 PM ET


WASHINGTON (AFP) - The Central Intelligence Agency (news - web sites) and other US government institutions were in some cases deliberately misled about alleged Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in the run-up to the war, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) has acknowledged.

The comments, made Sunday in an interview with NBC television, represented the first public official admission that the US government had been fed disinformation about Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s suspect arsenal of chemical and biological weapons and relayed it to the world community without questioning it.

"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading," Powell said, appearing on NBC's "Meet the Press" program. "And for that I am disappointed, and I regret it."

Powell delivered a landmark speech on banned Iraqi weapons of mass destruction before the UN Security Council in February 2003, in an unsuccessful attempt to persuade its members to authorize US-led military action against Iraq (news - web sites).

In that presentation, he insisted the United States had "firsthand descriptions" of mobile biological weapons factories that he said presented a threat to international security.

He disclosed that the information came from an Iraqi defector, a chemical engineer who supervised one of these mobile facilities, and corroborated by "other sources."

"Unfortunately, that multiple sourcing over time has turned out to be not accurate," a humbled secretary of state said Sunday. "And so I'm deeply disappointed."

The Iraqi defector in question has not been publicly identified.

But reports leaked to the media since the beginning of the war said his code name was "Curveball" and he was the brother of one of the top aides of Ahmad Chalabi, leader of the Iraqi National Congress and long-time advocate of the US invasion of Iraq to topple the Saddam regime.

Powell said he was "very concerned" by this situation but insisted that his February 2003 presentation at the United Nations (news - web sites) "was based on the best information that the Central Intelligence Agency made available to me."

No weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq since the beginning of the war despite an intensive search by hundreds of US and British intelligence experts.

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Not only that, but he was interviewed by "Meet The Press" and one of his staff members tried to cut the interview off after to said it again!  Click here.

Powell's Interview Is Cut Off
By COURTNEY C. RADSCH

Published: May 17, 2004

ASHINGTON, May 16 ? Secretary of State Colin L. Powell was abruptly cut off during an interview on Sunday on the NBC News program "Meet the Press" when one of his aides decided the interview had gone on long enough.

As Tim Russert, the program's host, began to ask his final question, the camera unexpectedly panned away from Mr. Powell, who was being interviewed in Jordan via a satellite link from Washington. In the confusion, Mr. Powell could be heard saying, "He's still asking me questions," to which a woman's voice answered, "No, he's not."

Mr. Powell, still off camera, said, "Tim, I'm sorry, I lost you," and added, "Emily, get out of the way." Mr. Russert, slightly irate, responded: "I think that was one of your staff, Mr. Secretary. I don't think that's appropriate." After a few seconds the camera returned to Mr. Powell and he finished the interview.


Betsy Fischer, the show's executive producer, identified the staff member as Emily Miller, deputy press secretary to Mr. Powell, and said Ms. Miller "pulled the plug" without warning. Although the interview was taped in advance, she said such interviews were usually run without being edited. Mr. Russert called it a case of "press management gone berserk."

"I've been doing this program for 13 years and nothing like that has ever happened," he said in a telephone interview. "I remember sometimes in countries around the world this happens, but not in America. This is a free press, and political figures can always say `I don't want to answer.' " He said he did not know if it was the content of the question that caused Ms. Miller's reaction or simply that the interview had gone over its allotted time.

Julie Reside, a State Department spokeswoman, said the interview had gone on considerably longer than scheduled, and that the personnel there "made every attempt to get NBC to finish up."


:lol:





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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2694399 - 05/18/04 02:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Cue tumbleweed.


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2694712 - 05/18/04 03:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I was watching when that whole sequence took place and I was just appaled at the attempted censorship that took place. Frankly I was surprised that they didn't edit it or go directly to commercial to cover up the blunder.

I remember when I was watching CNN live when that Israeli nuclear whistleblower was released after 18 years in solitary confinement. In the middle of his speech - which I'm sure he had been planning for a looong time - he began to go into detail about how he was lured to Rome and kidnapped by the Mossad, Israel's secret service, and the bastard CNN spin-masters cut to a fucking commercial break.  :nonono:

So props to Tim Russert and NBC for doing the right thing.  :thumbup:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2694909 - 05/18/04 05:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ehhhhh... Damn liberal media?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2694940 - 05/18/04 05:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:




And rightly so. Had the man been smart enough not to lie before a grand jury, he wouldn't have been.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2694942 - 05/18/04 05:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

censorship



You should probably learn what a word means before tossing it around.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2695194 - 05/18/04 09:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

it does seem to me like the press office was trying to censor Powell.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2695338 - 05/18/04 11:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

so what, the administration's new stance is that
it's all Ahmad Chalabi's fault now?

pffft.

I'm hoping Powell is have a case of conscience.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2695427 - 05/18/04 11:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading,"

But isn't that precisely why the lying bastard said it in the first place?  :laugh:

They needed a reason to panic the gullible into a war, the truth wouldn't have been much use would it.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2695669 - 05/18/04 01:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

misleading isn't lying...im sure bush would never knowingly tell a lie....after all, try and prove he didn't believe his claims on WMD.....


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2695698 - 05/18/04 01:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

im sure bush would never knowingly tell a lie

why are you so sure of this?


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2695717 - 05/18/04 01:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So..what were the questions being asked of him just before he was cut off?


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: Jellric]
    #2696019 - 05/18/04 02:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, he repeated that the reasons for war were deliberately misleading and then started to elaborate on that, as far as I can remember. That's when the camera was pulled to the right and all you could hear was Powell argueing with his staff member. Tim Russert was pissed and then the camera went back to Powell.

So here you have it folks. The fucking Secretary Of State is now coming out and saying that the administration deliberately lied to the American people. I think it's because he's a left wing pinko like Clarke was.

Powell is officially distancing himself from the administration. The future of his own career depends upon it . I don't know if it's because he wants to work with President Kerry or what, but Powell sees the writing on the wall and now he's making his move.




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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: afoaf]
    #2696303 - 05/18/04 03:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

afof, i was being horribly sarcastic....
Obviously the claims were lies from the beginning.

Its just funny the defense i've heard ppl mention for the falsehoods, that he believed what he was saying at the time :rolleyes:


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2696342 - 05/18/04 03:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

heh, sorry man, I think I'm losing my edge...


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: afoaf]
    #2696354 - 05/18/04 03:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Smoke a bowl and get some rest.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: GazzBut]
    #2696780 - 05/18/04 04:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
it does seem to me like the press office was trying to censor Powell.



According to the reports, there was an agreed upon period of time for the interview. It had passed. It was merely an aide who was stupid enough to try and tell a boss what to do.

That is not censorship.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2696822 - 05/18/04 05:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why don't we stop ignoring the elephant in the living room here Luv. What do you have to say about Secretary Of State Powell finally admitting to the world that the Bush administration lied to the American people to get us to support an unjust war?

I mean, Bush didn't lie under oath or anything, but still, this is BIG.




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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2696860 - 05/18/04 05:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm in shock! I would have never expected this from the Bush administration!  :smirk:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: Learyfan]
    #2696898 - 05/18/04 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry. Did I miss seeing him say Bush lied somewhere in that article? Please point it out to me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleading" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2696904 - 05/18/04 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

republicans: "Yeah, we lied. What are you gonna do about it? We own your banks, and the military as well!!!"


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2696923 - 05/18/04 05:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I'm sorry. Did I miss seeing him say Bush lied somewhere in that article? Please point it out to me.




from luvdemshroom's republican spin doctor dictionary:

"misleading =! lying"


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2696948 - 05/18/04 05:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Before you make yourself look completely foolish.... read the article again. Here... I'll help.

CIA sources on Iraq were 'deliberately misleading,'

The Central Intelligence Agency (news - web sites) and other US government institutions were in some cases deliberately misled about alleged Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in the run-up to the war, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) has acknowledged.

It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading,"

Am I the only one left on the planet who can fucking read and comprehend?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (05/18/04 05:18 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697017 - 05/18/04 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

that reminds me of that part in Atlas Shrugged where nobody wanted to take responsibility for the train crash, so corporate executives just kept passing the blame on down the chain of command until all the fault rested on the shoulders of some poor office messenger guy.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697049 - 05/18/04 05:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It can remind you of anything you wish. It doesn't change the fact that Powell neither stated or implied that the Bush administration lied.

Unless you'd care to show me where it did?

Now.... what this makes me think of is giving books to the blind and expecting them to read them. The written word is not all that tricky. The only ones who could read an article that says "the Administration was mislead" and come away from that believing it says "the administration lied" are those who want so desperately for it to be so, that comprehension escapes them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697069 - 05/18/04 05:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What does Powells statement imply?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697081 - 05/18/04 05:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


The president was the one who presented the information to me.  I blame him. 

blaming the CIA or their sources is such a lame excuse for an excuse. 

seriously, that sounds like something that some ghetto nigga would say to me if he ripped me off on a bag: 

"Yeah, I went to my homeboy's house to get you your bag, but my friend took all the money and gave me nothing.  That dude is kinda shady.  You need to watch out for him." :rolleyes:


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: GazzBut]
    #2697100 - 05/18/04 05:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That the administration got misleading info. And his statement does more than imply.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697130 - 05/18/04 05:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The president was the one who presented the information to me. I blame him.



Blame anyone you like. The fact remains no-one has shown that Bush lied. Perhaps he did but there is no proof of that.


Quote:

blaming the CIA or their sources is such a lame excuse for an excuse.



Right. So if a family member or friend lies to you and you pass on that info.... that makes you a liar?  :lol:

Do you even think about this stuff before you click continue?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697149 - 05/18/04 05:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Lets face it Luvvie, if it were a democrat you would be jumping all over it with gay abandon!

Its fairly obvious that a)the administration is unbelievably stupid or b)they tried to mislead people and didnt get away with it.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697152 - 05/18/04 05:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I guess the republican ideal of "personal responsibility" doesnt extend to the president.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: GazzBut]
    #2697175 - 05/18/04 05:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It'sn only fairly obvious if your reading and comprehension skills are severly lacking.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697187 - 05/18/04 05:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So now Bush personally gathered the info? He personally did the intelligence work?

Weak and getting weaker.

And I'm not a republican.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697265 - 05/18/04 05:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

OK, lets say I'm working on an assembly line.

If the dude in the stage before me fucks his job up, and I let that product through my stage, arent I responsible as well? Even if I did my stage of the manufacturing process perfectly, I still let a botched product get through my position.

and what about the person at the end of the line. His job is to check the final product and make sure that no stages in that product's manufacture were botched. If he lets that botched product through, then all 3 of us are at fault.

and what about the CEO of that company? If he lets his workers get away with turning out botched products, dont you think that the board of directors would be justified in firing him?

I just think that the blame should be all inclusive here. Whoever had a hand in those mistakes should fucking share the guilt. Its not an either/or thing. Anyone that was involved is at fault. Its called: "personal responsibility".

Of course, I dont really think it was a 'mistake' in the first place, but thats another matter entirely.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697287 - 05/18/04 05:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You know Luv, you're right. I am wrong. Powell didn't say that the Bush adminstration lied in that article, but that they had been lied to. I read it wrong.

However, I still think Bush deserves a big part of the blame. The buck stops at Bush.






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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: Learyfan]
    #2697343 - 05/18/04 06:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The buck stops at Bush.




incompetant, dishonest, some combination of the two?

I personally doubt that Bush was overly concerned with the truth of reports of WMDs in Iraq - he wanted to invade, and they gave him the reason he needed.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697364 - 05/18/04 06:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Lousy analogy.

Quote:

If the dude in the stage before me fucks his job up, and I let that product through my stage, arent I responsible as well? Even if I did my stage of the manufacturing process perfectly, I still let a botched product get through my position.



Only if you know there is a problem are you in the wrong. Let's pick a product. A car. You may be working on the left side and the problem is on the right side. You have no way of knowing. Is it still your responsibility?


Quote:

and what about the person at the end of the line. His job is to check the final product and make sure that no stages in that product's manufacture were botched. If he lets that botched product through, then all 3 of us are at fault.



In many cases more than one inspector is used. If one makes a mistake but the others do not, are all still to blame?


Quote:

and what about the CEO of that company? If he lets his workers get away with turning out botched products, dont you think that the board of directors would be justified in firing him?



Only if he repeatedly does so.


Quote:

Its not an either/or thing.



It most certainly can be. If you're washing dishes and the person drying drops one, how is that in any way your fault?


Quote:

Anyone that was involved is at fault.



Not always. It can take dozens of people to build a house. If ONE of those people puts in the wrong size door is everyone who worked on that house to blame? How can you blame the plumber because the door is wrong? How do you blame the contractor if the print is wrong?


Keep trying. Or, merely admit the article does not say or imply that Bush lied.

Edit: spelling and added the word "drying".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (05/18/04 06:16 PM)


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: Learyfan]
    #2697399 - 05/18/04 06:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You know Luv, you're right. I am wrong. Powell didn't say that the Bush adminstration lied in that article, but that they had been lied to. I read it wrong. 



:thumbup: Kudos for saying that. Would that all were able to do so.


Quote:

However, I still think Bush deserves a big part of the blame.



Time will tell, but that has yet to be shown.



Quote:

The buck stops at Bush.



Well, as that hasn't been the case for any administration for as long as I can remember, I doubt it will happen now.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: phi1618]
    #2697426 - 05/18/04 06:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

incompetant, dishonest, some combination of the two?




Interesting, and telling, that you didn't add "just plain wrong" to your choices.

Quote:

I personally doubt that Bush was overly concerned with the truth of reports of WMDs in Iraq - he wanted to invade, and they gave him the reason he needed.



Mere speculation.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697545 - 05/18/04 06:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I dunno....'deliberately' misleading implies knowledge of truth while parroting falsehoods. If bush was 'deliberately' mislead by his information sources in government, why is noone facing consequences?!


--------------------
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2697630 - 05/18/04 06:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I believe the claim is that Iraqis who wanted Hussain out made up some stuff about weapons, and the US gov't were innocent victims of this deception.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697637 - 05/18/04 06:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lousy analogy.




it was a lousy analogy in that it was open to abuse via misinterpretation, one of your favorite tricks.

most of your refutations involved processes which are complex and non-linear. this situation is different:

a piece of information was passed through a series of checkpoints on its way to the american people. The checkpoints were binary in nature: either the info was valid, or it was invalid. Bush was the final checkpoint. It appears that all of the checkpoints failed, including Bush. And he should be held accountable for his failure just like everyone else.

of course, the fact that Bush had an established record of wanting to go to war with Iraq before he got this piece of intelligence does not make his 'mistake' look very innocent in many people's eyes.

It seems to me that Bush's source monitoring abilities have been the victim of his personal bias. And that is a major mistake which I feel warrants termination. After all, this isnt just a car factory. Its a country. And if Bush fucked up his source monitoring because he wanted to go to war with Iraq for other reasons, he has made a collossal mistake which effects not just our country, but many others as well.

I will concede to your point that Bush may not have lied. He could just be a moron. But either way, I consider him a failure as President.


--------------------
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Get yourself cleaned out.'


Edited by DoctorJ (05/18/04 06:48 PM)


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697700 - 05/18/04 06:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, as that hasn't been the case for any administration for as long as I can remember, I doubt it will happen now.

John F. Kennedy, who took responsibility for the aborted Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba in 1961.

In 1980, President Carter said "the responsibility is fully my own" for the ill-fated rescue mission to win the freedom of the American hostages in Iran.

President Reagan took the blame when the Marine barracks were blown up in Beirut in 1983.

In 1987, he took responsibility for the Iran-Contra scandal involving the illegal sale of arms to Iran to fund the anti-government Nicaraguan rebels.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697719 - 05/18/04 07:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

one of your favorite tricks.



Not a trick, merely the ability to reason. Try it sometime.


Quote:

The checkpoints were binary in nature: either the info was valid, or it was invalid.



Or it was believed to be valid. Funny how so many always forget that one. Accidental?    :lol:


Quote:

Bush was the final checkpoint.



Not unless he went out in the field and spoke to the sources. He was merely the recipient of the report.


Quote:

And he should be held accountable for his failure just like everyone else. 



Oooooo, let's spank him.


Quote:

of course, the fact that Bush had an established record of wanting to go to war with Iraq before he got this piece of intelligence does not make his 'mistake' look very innocent in many people's eyes.



At least in the eyes of those who would whine no matter what republican had won.


Quote:

It seems to me that Bush's source monitoring abilities have been the victim of his personal bias.



Speculation. Pure and simple.


Quote:

And that is a major mistake which I feel warrants termination.



Really? Huh. I'd have never guessed.


Quote:

And if Bush fucked up his source monitoring because he wanted to go to war with Iraq for other reasons, he has made a collossal mistake which effects not just our country, but many others as well. 



If. Let me know when the proof shows up.


Quote:

I will concede to your point that Bush may not have lied.



If only you had done so earlier. Time wasted.


Quote:

He could just be a moron.



So could a lot of people. Or he could just have relied on bad info from those he trusted. Have you never done the same?


Quote:

But either way, I consider him a failure as President. 



Four more years to go.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2697736 - 05/18/04 07:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Good examples, each and everyone. But..... unless done consistantly, they count for squat against the big picture. I don't think we've had a truly wonderful president in years, if ever.

Ron was the closest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697780 - 05/18/04 07:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if he didn't lie, then he is incompetent. He should have checked his sources a little better (i'm sure you can appreciate that  :laugh:) instead of discounting the scores of intelligence sources that said there were no weapons and instead choosing only to believe the ones that claimed there were weapons, some of which were shady at best. It's not like no one in the CIA had been claiming that there were no weapons, or at least no proof. Bush just decided to ignore all this in favor of the intelligence that he wanted to hear

I think this must be a first for the history of modern american warfare. We go in for whatever reason, lot's of people die, the country descends into chaos, and then our leading officials come out a year later and say "woops sorry about that, we had no idea what we were talking about"

Bush either knew the WMD's weren't there, or is incomptetent and should resign at once for leading the US into a hundred billion dollar war that cost thousands their lives (including over a thousand coalition forces) and basically made an already unstable part of the world even more unstable.

Bush has disgraced the U.S. and i don't blame collin powell for trying to distance himself from him.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697801 - 05/18/04 07:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think we've had a truly wonderful president in years

hundreds of years. :smile:


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697809 - 05/18/04 07:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Or it was believed to be valid. Funny how so many always forget that one. Accidental?




belief has nothing to do with it. from a purely objective point of view, the information was either valid or invalid.

Quote:

At least in the eyes of those who would whine no matter what republican had won.





actually I would vote for Mccain over both Kerry and Bush if he ran for president as an independant or something. He seems to be the voice of reason in the Republican party (from everything I've heard him say, that is).

Quote:

Speculation. Pure and simple.




Is it speculation that Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq for his own reasons, long before he managed to scrounge up some shiesty 'evidence' that Iraq was an imminent threat to our national security?

Is it speculation that that 'evidence' has thus far (which is far longer than anyone anticipated) been untrue?

Is it that much of a leap to say that Bush could have let his own bias interfere with analyzing the validity of that 'evidence'?

you seem to be willing to let the government get away with some pretty crazy shit as long as its being run by republicans. I dont care if its a republican or a democrat, if someone acts the way bush has acted, they dont deserve another term as president.

Quote:

Or he could just have relied on bad info from those he trusted. Have you never done the same?




yes I have. And although i gave those people an earful for misinforming me, I ultimately held myself responsible for trusting them when I should have fucking known better. Again, its what I call "personal responsibility". If I ask a classmate when the exam is, and he gives me bad info, and I miss the exam, then its still my fault because I shouldnt have taken that kid's word for it. I should have verified it with the teacher or other students.

It would be nice if the fucking president had the same attitude towards personal responsibility as I do. I mean, I'm just a student. He's the president. The decisions I make effect my grades. The decisions he makes effect the entire planet. He needs to fucking step up to his job. Military intelligence is no place for trust. Verification is key.


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2697849 - 05/18/04 07:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

if he didn't lie, then he is incompetent.



No offense, but if you truly believe those are the only two choices, then you are incompetent.


Quote:

instead of discounting the scores of intelligence sources that said there were no weapons



And disregard those who said there were? It wasn't just the CIA.


Quote:

Bush just decided to ignore all this in favor of the intelligence that he wanted to hear



Ah, another mind reader.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697911 - 05/18/04 07:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

well at any rate bush can no longer be trusted.

And i'm not saying to disregard the intelligence claiming there were weapons, but rather to look at both equally, balance them out, and find out which sources are the most reliable. Going to war is obviously a very serious issue, and i don't think that proper analysis of all intelligence in a unbiased manner is asking to much from the people we elect to govern us.

Does tha fact that i predicted over a year ago that we'd find no weapons also make me a mind reader? If i was a conservative would you just 'take my word for it'?


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697924 - 05/18/04 07:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

belief has nothing to do with it.



:wtf: :lol: You kill me. Become a comedian.


Quote:

the information was either valid or invalid.



As is often the case, that's only true after one has looked to see. The belief leads to the discovery.


Quote:

actually I would vote for Mccain over both Kerry and Bush if he ran for president as an independant or something.



A closer reading of my post will reveal to you I didn't say that was the case. But, it appears you believe I did.


Quote:

Is it speculation that Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq for his own reasons, long before he managed to scrounge up some shiesty 'evidence' that Iraq was an imminent threat to our national security?



That's the rumor. Has it been confirmed?


Quote:

Is it speculation that that 'evidence' has thus far (which is far longer than anyone anticipated) been untrue?




It has thus far not been proven to be untrue, so yes.... it's speculation.


Quote:

Is it that much of a leap to say that Bush could have let his own bias interfere with analyzing the validity of that 'evidence'?



Could have? Sure. Prove the bias and we'll talk about it again.


Quote:

you seem to be willing to let the government get away with some pretty crazy shit as long as its being run by republicans.



You seem prone to making leaps that vfacts don't bear out. A truly bad habit. Hopefully you'll grow out of it.


Quote:

yes I have. 



So using your logic, you're a liar?


Quote:

And although i gave those people an earful for misinforming me, I ultimately held myself responsible for trusting them when I should have fucking known better.



And you know Bush didn't because???????


Quote:

 




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2698003 - 05/18/04 07:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And i'm not saying to disregard the intelligence claiming there were weapons, but rather to look at both equally, balance them out, and find out which sources are the most reliable.



This is not intended to be a smart ass remark, but there have been numerous threads here showing that many foriegn agencies also believed. Look for them. Kerry believed as recently as early 2003.


Quote:

Does tha fact that i predicted over a year ago that we'd find no weapons also make me a mind reader?



If none are found, discounting the mustard gas and sarin found this week and last (I know, two discoveries do not make WMD, but it shows possibilities), you'll be shown to have been a lucky guesser.


Quote:

If i was a conservative would you just 'take my word for it'?



Nope. But if you claimed you're a fool for making such a foolish comment, I'd believe that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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