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Offlinephi1618
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Registered: 02/14/04
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2697630 - 05/18/04 06:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I believe the claim is that Iraqis who wanted Hussain out made up some stuff about weapons, and the US gov't were innocent victims of this deception.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697637 - 05/18/04 06:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lousy analogy.




it was a lousy analogy in that it was open to abuse via misinterpretation, one of your favorite tricks.

most of your refutations involved processes which are complex and non-linear. this situation is different:

a piece of information was passed through a series of checkpoints on its way to the american people. The checkpoints were binary in nature: either the info was valid, or it was invalid. Bush was the final checkpoint. It appears that all of the checkpoints failed, including Bush. And he should be held accountable for his failure just like everyone else.

of course, the fact that Bush had an established record of wanting to go to war with Iraq before he got this piece of intelligence does not make his 'mistake' look very innocent in many people's eyes.

It seems to me that Bush's source monitoring abilities have been the victim of his personal bias. And that is a major mistake which I feel warrants termination. After all, this isnt just a car factory. Its a country. And if Bush fucked up his source monitoring because he wanted to go to war with Iraq for other reasons, he has made a collossal mistake which effects not just our country, but many others as well.

I will concede to your point that Bush may not have lied. He could just be a moron. But either way, I consider him a failure as President.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Edited by DoctorJ (05/18/04 06:48 PM)


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697700 - 05/18/04 06:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, as that hasn't been the case for any administration for as long as I can remember, I doubt it will happen now.

John F. Kennedy, who took responsibility for the aborted Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba in 1961.

In 1980, President Carter said "the responsibility is fully my own" for the ill-fated rescue mission to win the freedom of the American hostages in Iran.

President Reagan took the blame when the Marine barracks were blown up in Beirut in 1983.

In 1987, he took responsibility for the Iran-Contra scandal involving the illegal sale of arms to Iran to fund the anti-government Nicaraguan rebels.


--------------------
If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697719 - 05/18/04 07:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

one of your favorite tricks.



Not a trick, merely the ability to reason. Try it sometime.


Quote:

The checkpoints were binary in nature: either the info was valid, or it was invalid.



Or it was believed to be valid. Funny how so many always forget that one. Accidental?    :lol:


Quote:

Bush was the final checkpoint.



Not unless he went out in the field and spoke to the sources. He was merely the recipient of the report.


Quote:

And he should be held accountable for his failure just like everyone else. 



Oooooo, let's spank him.


Quote:

of course, the fact that Bush had an established record of wanting to go to war with Iraq before he got this piece of intelligence does not make his 'mistake' look very innocent in many people's eyes.



At least in the eyes of those who would whine no matter what republican had won.


Quote:

It seems to me that Bush's source monitoring abilities have been the victim of his personal bias.



Speculation. Pure and simple.


Quote:

And that is a major mistake which I feel warrants termination.



Really? Huh. I'd have never guessed.


Quote:

And if Bush fucked up his source monitoring because he wanted to go to war with Iraq for other reasons, he has made a collossal mistake which effects not just our country, but many others as well. 



If. Let me know when the proof shows up.


Quote:

I will concede to your point that Bush may not have lied.



If only you had done so earlier. Time wasted.


Quote:

He could just be a moron.



So could a lot of people. Or he could just have relied on bad info from those he trusted. Have you never done the same?


Quote:

But either way, I consider him a failure as President. 



Four more years to go.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2697736 - 05/18/04 07:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Good examples, each and everyone. But..... unless done consistantly, they count for squat against the big picture. I don't think we've had a truly wonderful president in years, if ever.

Ron was the closest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,527
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697780 - 05/18/04 07:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

if he didn't lie, then he is incompetent. He should have checked his sources a little better (i'm sure you can appreciate that  :laugh:) instead of discounting the scores of intelligence sources that said there were no weapons and instead choosing only to believe the ones that claimed there were weapons, some of which were shady at best. It's not like no one in the CIA had been claiming that there were no weapons, or at least no proof. Bush just decided to ignore all this in favor of the intelligence that he wanted to hear

I think this must be a first for the history of modern american warfare. We go in for whatever reason, lot's of people die, the country descends into chaos, and then our leading officials come out a year later and say "woops sorry about that, we had no idea what we were talking about"

Bush either knew the WMD's weren't there, or is incomptetent and should resign at once for leading the US into a hundred billion dollar war that cost thousands their lives (including over a thousand coalition forces) and basically made an already unstable part of the world even more unstable.

Bush has disgraced the U.S. and i don't blame collin powell for trying to distance himself from him.


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
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Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697801 - 05/18/04 07:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think we've had a truly wonderful president in years

hundreds of years. :smile:


--------------------
If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697809 - 05/18/04 07:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Or it was believed to be valid. Funny how so many always forget that one. Accidental?




belief has nothing to do with it. from a purely objective point of view, the information was either valid or invalid.

Quote:

At least in the eyes of those who would whine no matter what republican had won.





actually I would vote for Mccain over both Kerry and Bush if he ran for president as an independant or something. He seems to be the voice of reason in the Republican party (from everything I've heard him say, that is).

Quote:

Speculation. Pure and simple.




Is it speculation that Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq for his own reasons, long before he managed to scrounge up some shiesty 'evidence' that Iraq was an imminent threat to our national security?

Is it speculation that that 'evidence' has thus far (which is far longer than anyone anticipated) been untrue?

Is it that much of a leap to say that Bush could have let his own bias interfere with analyzing the validity of that 'evidence'?

you seem to be willing to let the government get away with some pretty crazy shit as long as its being run by republicans. I dont care if its a republican or a democrat, if someone acts the way bush has acted, they dont deserve another term as president.

Quote:

Or he could just have relied on bad info from those he trusted. Have you never done the same?




yes I have. And although i gave those people an earful for misinforming me, I ultimately held myself responsible for trusting them when I should have fucking known better. Again, its what I call "personal responsibility". If I ask a classmate when the exam is, and he gives me bad info, and I miss the exam, then its still my fault because I shouldnt have taken that kid's word for it. I should have verified it with the teacher or other students.

It would be nice if the fucking president had the same attitude towards personal responsibility as I do. I mean, I'm just a student. He's the president. The decisions I make effect my grades. The decisions he makes effect the entire planet. He needs to fucking step up to his job. Military intelligence is no place for trust. Verification is key.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2697849 - 05/18/04 07:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

if he didn't lie, then he is incompetent.



No offense, but if you truly believe those are the only two choices, then you are incompetent.


Quote:

instead of discounting the scores of intelligence sources that said there were no weapons



And disregard those who said there were? It wasn't just the CIA.


Quote:

Bush just decided to ignore all this in favor of the intelligence that he wanted to hear



Ah, another mind reader.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,527
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2697911 - 05/18/04 07:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well at any rate bush can no longer be trusted.

And i'm not saying to disregard the intelligence claiming there were weapons, but rather to look at both equally, balance them out, and find out which sources are the most reliable. Going to war is obviously a very serious issue, and i don't think that proper analysis of all intelligence in a unbiased manner is asking to much from the people we elect to govern us.

Does tha fact that i predicted over a year ago that we'd find no weapons also make me a mind reader? If i was a conservative would you just 'take my word for it'?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2697924 - 05/18/04 07:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

belief has nothing to do with it.



:wtf: :lol: You kill me. Become a comedian.


Quote:

the information was either valid or invalid.



As is often the case, that's only true after one has looked to see. The belief leads to the discovery.


Quote:

actually I would vote for Mccain over both Kerry and Bush if he ran for president as an independant or something.



A closer reading of my post will reveal to you I didn't say that was the case. But, it appears you believe I did.


Quote:

Is it speculation that Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq for his own reasons, long before he managed to scrounge up some shiesty 'evidence' that Iraq was an imminent threat to our national security?



That's the rumor. Has it been confirmed?


Quote:

Is it speculation that that 'evidence' has thus far (which is far longer than anyone anticipated) been untrue?




It has thus far not been proven to be untrue, so yes.... it's speculation.


Quote:

Is it that much of a leap to say that Bush could have let his own bias interfere with analyzing the validity of that 'evidence'?



Could have? Sure. Prove the bias and we'll talk about it again.


Quote:

you seem to be willing to let the government get away with some pretty crazy shit as long as its being run by republicans.



You seem prone to making leaps that vfacts don't bear out. A truly bad habit. Hopefully you'll grow out of it.


Quote:

yes I have. 



So using your logic, you're a liar?


Quote:

And although i gave those people an earful for misinforming me, I ultimately held myself responsible for trusting them when I should have fucking known better.



And you know Bush didn't because???????


Quote:

 




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Powell: "some reasons for war were deliberately misleadi [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2698003 - 05/18/04 07:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And i'm not saying to disregard the intelligence claiming there were weapons, but rather to look at both equally, balance them out, and find out which sources are the most reliable.



This is not intended to be a smart ass remark, but there have been numerous threads here showing that many foriegn agencies also believed. Look for them. Kerry believed as recently as early 2003.


Quote:

Does tha fact that i predicted over a year ago that we'd find no weapons also make me a mind reader?



If none are found, discounting the mustard gas and sarin found this week and last (I know, two discoveries do not make WMD, but it shows possibilities), you'll be shown to have been a lucky guesser.


Quote:

If i was a conservative would you just 'take my word for it'?



Nope. But if you claimed you're a fool for making such a foolish comment, I'd believe that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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