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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26938844 - 09/16/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

my understanding on the topic comes from studying the works of C.S. Lewis. 

it comes down to selfishness.

people may have different understandings of what it means to be unselfish, and people obviously have different ideas about morality, and different understandings about what people one should be unselfish towards, but there is a general agreement that you should not put yourself first.  of course, no one actually always behaves this way - nobody always puts others first all of the time.

in the instance of another's life being in danger, with very little time to act, when there are only reactions, there are two instincts/impulses, the one to help, and the one to keep yourself out of danger.  when there is nothing in the mind but these two instincts, the stronger of the two will prevail.  there is no such thing as a good or bad impulse. 

in situations that are not purely reactionary, when there is a conscious decision involved, a third thing judges between the two impulses, it is the thing that directs the instincts.  this thing may or may not tell you to side with the weaker of the two impulses.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26938875 - 09/16/20 11:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you are talking about having the awareness to deliberate between two responses.

I have to xlate some of your words in the last sentence which means everything and nothing:
reactionary -> reflex (not physics and not politics)
impulses -> conditioned responses (not hormonal drives, not innate)
instincts -> behavior (when behavior is not instinctual or innate)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939051 - 09/16/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
my understanding on the topic comes from studying the works of C.S. Lewis. 

it comes down to selfishness.

....




.    On some level, a lot of labeling about 'good' and 'bad', probably comes down to a value system we got from parents, teachers, &/or religious leaders; or if we are unfortunate from a gang, cult, or the military. If that is the case then of course the value system is man made (or cultural) and not absolute, and so is only relative, and not necessarily in accord with 'reality' or 'the universe'. In any case such value systems get internalized, become to some degree unconscious and are used not only to pigeon hole others, but to penalize ourselves.
.    So we get guilt, & then confession or psychoanalysis to deal with it; or alcohol to shut up the inner critic .
.    It is a mess, so Zen has a story where the punch line that leads to enlightenment is: "Don't think 'good', don't think 'bad'.

.    Of course there is a lot of interesting psychological literature on the subject as to how maleable people are in this regard, the most famous being Stanley Milgram's studies.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stanley+milgram&t=h_&ia=web

this book is more recent:
The Elephant in the Brain: Hidden Motives in Everyday Life 
Kevin Simler (Author), Robin Hanson (Author)

Amazon Review
"Human beings are primates, and primates are political animals. Our brains, therefore, are designed not just to hunt and gather but also to help us get ahead socially, often via deception and self-deception. But while we may be self-interested schemers, we benefit by pretending otherwise. The less we know about our own ugly motives, the better - and thus, we don't like to talk, or even think, about the extent of our selfishness. This is "the elephant in the brain".

Such an introspective taboo makes it hard for us to think clearly about our nature and the explanations for our behavior. The aim of this book, then, is to confront our hidden motives directly - to track down the darker, unexamined corners of our psyches and blast them with floodlights. Then, once everything is clearly visible, we can work to better understand ourselves: Why do we laugh? Why are artists sexy? Why do we brag about travel? Why do we prefer to speak rather than listen?

Our unconscious motives drive more than just our private behavior; they also infect our venerated social institutions such as art, school, charity, medicine, politics, and religion. In fact, these institutions are in many ways designed to accommodate our hidden motives, to serve covert agendas alongside their "official" ones. The existence of big hidden motives can upend the usual political debates, leading one to question the legitimacy of these social institutions, and of standard policies designed to favor or discourage them. You won't see yourself - or the world - the same after confronting the elephant in the brain."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939213 - 09/16/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

how do you differentiate conscious motives from unconscious motives?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939249 - 09/16/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you are talking about having the awareness to deliberate between two responses.

I have to xlate some of your words in the last sentence which means everything and nothing:
reactionary -> reflex (not physics and not politics)
impulses -> conditioned responses (not hormonal drives, not innate)
instincts -> behavior (when behavior is not instinctual or innate)




okay, i will work on rewording that.

to ld:

i only mentioned C.S. Lewis, because he has inspired so much in me.  i wouldn’t have the intelligence/heart to sort through this kind of thing if it wasn’t for his writings/lectures.  i'm an exteremly selfish person.  he is a philosopher who couldn’t help by living by what he thought.

there are facts, how man behaves, but that is not the whole story, because there is something about behavior that is not a fact, that is not made up by humans.  it goes beyond the facts of man's behavior, and there is more than one kind of reality to this behaviour, but it is a real thing.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939281 - 09/16/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how do you differentiate conscious motives from unconscious motives?




well you could start with a search engine and save us both a lot of time
as there is great deal of info. & who knows which you might find most useful
in continuing learning

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+do+you+differentiate+conscious+motives+from+unconscious+motives%3F&t=hk&ia=web


Edited by laughingdog (09/16/20 03:22 PM)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939291 - 09/16/20 03:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how do you differentiate conscious motives from unconscious motives?




well you could start with a search engine and save us both a lot of time
as there is great deal of info. & who knows which you might find most useful
in continuing learning

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+do+you+differentiate+conscious+motives+from+unconscious+motives%3F&t=hk&ia=web




ld, are you an artifical intelligence?

how can anyone learn anything about human nature through a serach engine? 

-unless of course you are an ai.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939316 - 09/16/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

he is using a technique to hide his ability to communicate his understanding.

I don't care what google thinks laughingdog thinks - I was asking laughingdog himself what he thinks, but he did not make the slightest effort to share.

I find phrases like "unconscious motives" have a distinct smell of bs.

your motives are your motives based upon conditioning.

unconscious or conscious does not alter the meaning of motive, but this word adds spookiness to the sentence.

this is not in google


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939334 - 09/16/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you are being silly
just do a search on something like:
"unconscious racial prejudice as measured in the lab"
and you will get the 'hard' evidence you seem to think is some mystery I cannot explain.

.  And there are many such studies, covering many things besides racial prejudice; prejudice just happens to be of great interest currently, and much discussed by those who are really interested.

.  You have had a 'hobby horse' about these terms (conscious, unconscious, & association) for years, that are not a problem for respected people in the relevant fields. As you cannot refute these people you seem to want to convince people on a forum where people are not experts that you are an authority, and have a unique insight into the human mind.

.  The amusing part is that you are so predictable in this matter, that indeed in your case it seems to be a reflex and not a matter of conscious choice.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26940089 - 09/17/20 04:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the term "unconscious" is abused


racial prejudice is a fact and we are conscious of it always. and if we do something we do not respect in others we call it "unconscious" so as to reduce the guilt of not de programming the reflex of hating the person who is different.

this is an example of using words to distort the truth, not to enable truth.

just leave it out, or use the term habit which is more accurate.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26940319 - 09/17/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would like some science in terms of the relation ship between the deep mind and subconscious

maybe we should understand it as deep mind to have thought activity of weeds mental and wholesome and pure and virtue mental items in the deep mind and push to and encouragement to meditation

as soon as the term deep mind comes up we want to meditate

and understand the philosophy of it (positive mind, detracting (weeds) mind (mental items)


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26940320 - 09/17/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

maybe all of mind is mental content


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26940329 - 09/17/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
your motives are your motives based upon conditioning.
this is not in google




so a daily drawing

I used to meditate lots to avoid making bad karma for others


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26940628 - 09/17/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Ferdinando,
please do not try to take any of these posts personally.

anyway I am not sure what you mean by deep mind.
because mind has no dimension as such - neither shallow nor deep.

Separately, IMO, nobody can justify "subconscious" mind except as the the thing we refer to which is the aggregate of memory and habits, and that is just mind, the extra term "subconscious" confuses everyone. There is no separate part of this non-dimensional thing which is sub-conscious, it is all mind and while not fully asleep, it is all part of consciousness.

Maybe you are referring to a particular feeling or calmness that is deeply resonant, which is common to notice after meditation at least for a few minutes, and for that experience using the term deep could be misleading as well (but it sounds good). We do not need to add verbal emphasis ('deep') to the simple experience that is just fine on its own.

Sometimes you get up after mediation, and there is no resonant clarity, just be aware of what is, as it is. Keep it simple.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26940687 - 09/17/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is all mind and while not fully asleep, it is all part of consciousness.





where/what is the mind when dreaming?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26940866 - 09/17/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

while dreaming we are in a mixed conscious state that is too resonant to be called waking, and far too active to be called sleeping.

It is a natural thing that would occur just as we are waking up, or just as we are falling asleep. Some REM sleep does not result in fully awakening, however it is a partial awakening, it is definitely not the unconsciousness of sleeping.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26941722 - 09/18/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

who thinks one gets it of a higher quality from falling asleep


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941729 - 09/18/20 05:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

right, I agree

and I agree that it is hugely beneficial

I saw that when I meditated, I saw darkness but it wasn't just darkness, it was mental items, with quality and light in them different amount for each part

it was like entities

these are mental weeds

thought patterns

like I don't want to work

bhante said this I said

but I will say then that in the meditation the mental contents, part of which needs to be ridded, because it holds us back and

maybe it "drags on" (milarepa) like driving with the handbrake on or like crawling with one's ass behind arms dragging forward ruining one's time for the rest of one's life because were the weeds not the the behaviour would be better maybe inherently and we'd function better and be better for others


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941731 - 09/18/20 05:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I will say for science that the mental weeds are very much something that is seen visually

and the mind has so many of them

they need ridding (ego loss (somewhat (or entirely :laugh:)

what a relief and assistance it would be

and refreshment


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941747 - 09/18/20 05:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

yes sometimes time is fine even I probably had a good time today

it depends on what you did

painting is most effective for this

except extremes like reading you etc.

gnome world entrance etc.

meditation works for me

I press the meditation button (pause) deep/hard every day

I think it keeps me out of the psych ward from doing drugs not violent or things like this

I understand

I think I should do less substance and work more

for example with meditation and painting

I have been getting things done almost all the time lately

I take many showers every day because I escape being unhappy or become happy from it

there are some wonderful people here and incredibly successful

and psychedelic power is one of the best here

and we all have power of making it more readily (I mean popular and like being ready for liberation (because it is good so philosophically translated)


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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