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Offlinegbruno
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Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? * 1
    #26386611 - 12/17/19 10:03 AM (9 months, 1 day ago)

I know for cannabis, you/someone can extract THC from flower to make a "pure" THC compound - most commonly liquid. Like from 1 gram of flower you can extract whatever amount of THC is in there and make a pure THC liquid from it.

Does psilocybin extraction work in the same fashion? When you do extraction methods, are you actually ending up with a pure psilocybin after product?

Like say you have 10 grams of mushrooms and after your method of extraction (lets say the methanol method) youre left with 1gram... is that pure psilocybin?


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OfflineMycoactive
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: gbruno] * 1
    #26386643 - 12/17/19 10:35 AM (9 months, 1 day ago)

If you extract with methanol, you'll be pulling out psilocybin, other tryptamines (e.g., psilocin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin, norpsilocin), fats, and sugars. It will not be pure psilocybin. You can further refine the product to get rid of these other molecules but there's really not much of a point as psilocybin is taken orally rather than smoked so these other compounds will not likely have a negative impact on the experience. In fact, some of the other tryptamines might contribute to the experience. Also, the more that you work to refine the product the more psilocybin you'll end up losing during the refinement process.


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Mycoactive] * 1
    #26386674 - 12/17/19 11:02 AM (9 months, 1 day ago)

I think doing tea and freezing it is best. If you are going to do it at all.


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OfflineInfiniteDreams
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: The Mycologist]
    #26388684 - 12/18/19 02:52 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

baeocystin, norbaeocystin,




I'd love to know more about these and their relationship/interaction with psilocybin...

I think there's a species, Psilocybe Baeocystis or something similar, that has remarkably high levels of baeocystin compared to other psilocybes.  Would be awesome to get ahold of those to compare to cubensis and see if there's any notable differences in the experience.


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Offlinecli_hlt
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: InfiniteDreams]
    #26390187 - 12/19/19 08:55 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

A bit off: Stamets talked to Joe Rogan last time (v=xJ6Ym719urg 37:25). He told that he knows about a single case study where a child died because of renal failure after ingesting P. baeocystis. He himself tried 10mg of pure baeocystin and he found it to be posess no psychoactive effects besides maybe the allevietion of his anxiety.


Edited by cli_hlt (12/19/19 08:56 AM)


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OfflineMycoactive
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: cli_hlt]
    #26390427 - 12/19/19 12:19 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

cli_hlt said:
A bit off: Stamets talked to Joe Rogan last time (v=xJ6Ym719urg 37:25). He told that he knows about a single case study where a child died because of renal failure after ingesting P. baeocystis. He himself tried 10mg of pure baeocystin and he found it to be posess no psychoactive effects besides maybe the allevietion of his anxiety.




It's one thing to consider a molecule's effects in isolation, but it's a totally different challenge to study a molecule's effects in combination with other molecules. While baeocystin on its on may not be psychoactive, it could potentiate the activities of other tryptamines such as psilocybin. It could also do nothing at all, but it's an open question.


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OnlineSolipsis
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Mycoactive]
    #26391867 - 12/20/19 06:20 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Idk why Stamets didnt have a stronger experience but I believe Gartz also tried baeocystin and found it to be psychedelic and iirc much like psilocybin.
Stamets generally seems to have no problem taking promising results to suggestive and further and ofc the hype that ensues. It's a shame he works on novel stuff but then also compromises credibility. He is so much of a believer.. i appreciate the attention he draws but think he is way to biased to listen to seriously.

Anyway on the topic of extraction: bottom line is that it sucks to get psilo crystals and you kinda need chromatography. There isn't really a point in extraction aside from concentrating an amount into a much smaller volume for which you could extract (which due to sugars can give a bit of an amber resin IME) and go no further. Crystals would really be for the novelty (i love novelty lol).

Extracting is likely to be bad for sensitivity to degradation. As long as the enzymes are deactivated which they will be in dried mushrooms, i think the alkaloids are naturally protected in the tissue esp if the tissue is not powdered.
Of course you can offset this sensitivity to degradation with various measures of protective storage but my point is to figure out what your primary goal is here and then choose the way to go based on that. Weighing the pros and cons.

Whatever you do, avoid bruising or damaging a lot of tissue when fresh and then allowing it time. This seems to be tantamount to breaking a lightstick but instead of light you fuck up your psilocin.

Alkaloids like baeocystin and psilocybin competitively inhibit MAO (metabolic enzyme in our bodies) just by being a substrate for it, they are just not very strong inhibitors per se and usually not thought of like that. But the total amount of secondary tryptamines would matter for this and also beta-carbolines seem to be found which are likely to be stronger competitive inhibitors / RIMA, thus complicating the metabolism of the psilocin and norpsilocin etc and expected to enhance or modulate the effects.

And yes by comparison pure synthetic psilocin for example, can feel more "plain". My hypothesis is that you could artificially give it more character by adding some random inactive tryptamines if those are either in high enough quantities or occupy MAO relatively long.
More simply put, if you know a bit about MAOI's, there is a wide range of mild, low-profile ones possible so it stands to reason that there is also a nearly infinite range of enhancers possible.

Idk why different RIMA's / MAOI's should produce different synergistic effects, maybe they are able to pass into tissues to varying extent giving an even bigger sea of possibilities.
Ofc set and setting, plus the fact that every experience is unique as every moment is, obscures this and makes it a lot harder to see cause and effect.


Edited by Solipsis (12/20/19 06:28 AM)


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: gbruno]
    #26394684 - 12/21/19 11:35 PM (8 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

gbruno said:
Does psilocybin extraction work in the same fashion? When you do extraction methods, are you actually ending up with a pure psilocybin after product?




Depends on how good your extraction is.

Here is a recent paper (2017) that explains how they made pure psilocybin crystals from Psilocybe cubensis fruits:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28929753

Here is a photo of the pure psilocybin crystals produced using the method in the above paper: 



Photo credit:  Mi Raculix

Here is a paper from 1985 about psilocybin extraction:  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19122936_An_Aqueous-Organic_Extraction_Method_for_the_Isolation_and_Identification_of_Psilocin_from_Hallucinogenic_Mushrooms


Quote:

Like say you have 10 grams of mushrooms and after your method of extraction (lets say the methanol method) youre left with 1gram... is that pure psilocybin?




If you start with ten grams of dried mushrooms and end up with 1 gram of extract, it would be at most 10% pure, as mushrooms are around 1% psilocybin by dry weight.

A good first step in psilocybin extraction is to grind the mushrooms and use methanol to get the alkaloids into solution.    A good second step is to wash the extract from the first step with a non-polar solvent like chloroform or DCM.  Additional steps are required to get pure crystals, but they aren't easy to do at home.

Both dried mushrooms and pure psilocybin are very stable if it is kept completely dry.  Any moisture present will cause degradation of both dried mushrooms and pure psilocybin.


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OfflineHolyBolete
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26410644 - 01/01/20 11:09 AM (8 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

gbruno said:
Does psilocybin extraction work in the same fashion? When you do extraction methods, are you actually ending up with a pure psilocybin after product?




Depends on how good your extraction is.

Here is a recent paper (2017) that explains how they made pure psilocybin crystals from Psilocybe cubensis fruits:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28929753

Here is a photo of the pure psilocybin crystals produced using the method in the above paper: 



Photo credit:  Mi Raculix

Here is a paper from 1985 about psilocybin extraction:  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19122936_An_Aqueous-Organic_Extraction_Method_for_the_Isolation_and_Identification_of_Psilocin_from_Hallucinogenic_Mushrooms


Quote:

Like say you have 10 grams of mushrooms and after your method of extraction (lets say the methanol method) youre left with 1gram... is that pure psilocybin?




If you start with ten grams of dried mushrooms and end up with 1 gram of extract, it would be at most 10% pure, as mushrooms are around 1% psilocybin by dry weight.

A good first step in psilocybin extraction is to grind the mushrooms and use methanol to get the alkaloids into solution.    A good second step is to wash the extract from the first step with a non-polar solvent like chloroform or DCM.  Additional steps are required to get pure crystals, but they aren't easy to do at home.

Both dried mushrooms and pure psilocybin are very stable if it is kept completely dry.  Any moisture present will cause degradation of both dried mushrooms and pure psilocybin.




Thanks, we love you Alan Rockefeller!!!


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OfflinePsiloSci
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: gbruno]
    #26628440 - 04/26/20 01:28 AM (4 months, 25 days ago)

Here's a method from Professor Fanaticus himself, rest his soul,



"ALCOHOL EXTRACTION OF THE MAGIC CRYSTALS by Professor Fanaticus
SUPPLY LIST
Shrooms
190 proof ethyl alcohol (GOLDEN GRAIN - EVERCLEAR ect)
Pyrex glass wide mouth slurry soaking vessel
Stove top boiling water pot (slurry vessel sits inside) "double boiler"
Funnel, and vacuum filtering set up or Dust-pollen masks
Small desk fan
Stirring tools - spatulas
Acquire quality psilocybe cubensis shrooms (harvested before or just as the veils open and cool dried with desiccant). The more shrooms used in the beginning, the more potent the concentration can be when finished. Use at least several grams of dried shroom material to make the process worthwhile and effective. The shrooms need to be thoroughly dry (rock hard) to allow pulverization. To pulverize the shrooms, put them into a small strong zip lock plastic bag (freezer bag), cover the bag with a magazine (for protection of the bag) and pound it with the rubber heel of a large shoe. Or, powder them in a small canister type coffee bean grinder.

In a heat resistant soaking vessel (Pyrex glass), combine the shroom powder with several times its volume with 190 proof Everclear (ethanol). This is the "slurry". Place the slurry steeping vessel in a pan of boiling water. Raising the slurry soaking vessel off the bottom of the hot water pan is a good idea for preventing serious sticking of the extracts. The slurry will start to boil. Turn the water boiling pan heat down and let the slurry simmer and steep for a few hours at a warm-hot temperature. Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water. Watch the temperatures closely. Things can get totally out of hand and ruined very quickly without close attention paid. Stir the hot mixture periodically and often to keep things loose with no sticking.

After the hot steeping and while the slurry is still hot, filter it through filter paper. This is probably the most important part. A good filtration will be efficient and will keep most of the shroom material out, making for a clean extraction (clean of shrooms that is - but heavy on psilocybin). A small lab type vacuum pump powered bottle top filtering funnel with filter disk holder makes it all easy and fast, with little waste.

Collect and save the filtrate liquids. Heat the slurry (the mush in the filter paper) one or two more times with the 190 proof as before, filter, and accumulate the liquids of the extraction's. The photos at the top are of extraction's done twice.

If there is no vacuum filtering device at hand, inexpensive dust-pollen masks make good filters for the slurry. These are available at hardware, drug and paint stores. They are usually white or tan colored, fit over the nose and mouth and are held on to the face by a rubber band attached to the filter. Fashion the filter over the mouth of a drinking glass. Squeeze the filter and slurry to extract the alcohol. There are many details to deal with, but doing it once reveals them all. Experience is the best teacher. Store the extracted alcohol in a fresh bottle.

EVAPORATION AND CONCENTRATION
Combine the filtered alcohol extracts into the Pyrex steeping vessel. Place a small electric fan near the vessel and point the air flow directly down into the vessel until the surface of the alcohol ripples. This will speed the evaporation and concentration. The process will take several hours. The more alcohol extract - the longer the evaporation time. As the alcohol evaporates and the level recedes down into the glass, wash the residue that adheres to the inside of the glass back into the solution. Any fumes that are generated will be harmless because the alcohol is a non poisonous drinkable spirit. Keep flames away from the solution - pure alcohol is very flammable.

One can also use heat to evaporate and concentrate the liqueur. Use a double boiler type of set up to heat and evaporate off the alcohol to concentrate the liqueur. At this point, with hot concentrated liqueur (no crystal precipitate) it is best to go immediately to the storage tek (see Dosage and Storage at the end).

The concentrated shroom liqueur will have a pungent mushroomy aroma (like fungi perfume). Also, a white crystalline kind of precipitate will form in the alcohol liqueur (see above photo) as it cools. Store it in small screw cap bottles or vials in the freezer. Alcohol doesn't freeze solid and will remain liquid.

IMPORTANT GUIDELINES
1. Use warm-hot temps when steeping the initial slurry (shroom-alcohol). Use a double boiler for the slurry vessel. Avoid direct heat to the bottoms of the slurry soaking vessels. The extract has a tendency to bake on and stick very easily.

2. A good filter is a must. Lab quality filter paper helps for a cleaner extract (less shroom stuff). A small bottle top vacuum filtering funnel with a hand squeeze vacuum pump and fine slow flow filtering papers is perfect for this small extraction tek (look for the 47 millimeter filter sized set ups).

3. When filtering the slurry, do it while it is hot.

4. When heated in the initial slurry, the psilocybin alkaloid extracts are free base molecules. In the final liqueur on cool down, the free base molecules will coalesce and form crystals. It takes a day or two for the process to be complete. The less the final amount of liquid is, the easier it is for the free base psilocybin molecules to meet each other and coalesce into the whitish crystalline substance.

5. The crystalline extract can be completely dried by placing the liqueur container in front of a small fan to get most of the liquid out. To complete the drying, desiccant is recommended. Place the small vessel of liqueur into a larger jar with quality desiccant. It takes several days to complete drying. The final crystalline substance can be weighed, worked with and experimented with.

6. TEK personalization through experience is what happens to anyone trying this. Extracting plant material is an ancient art, and the ways are myriad.

DOSAGE and STORAGE
On cooling and with time, the free base psilocybin molecules coalesce in the liqueur and precipitate into a whitish crystalline extract which falls to the bottom of the storage vessel. The freebase Psilocybin molecules come together fast in the cool alcohol.

Storage and dosage prep is the same. If the liqueur has already precipitated the crystals, heat the final concentrated liqueur (for example - 20 grams of dried shrooms can be extracted to 50-100 milliliters alcohol) in its storage vessel in a pot of hot water. Boil the liqueur and stir and scrape deposits from the glass as the liqueur boils lightly. Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water. Keep the storage vessel off the bottom of the boiling water pot. Direct heat is very bad for the liqueur, making it stick. As the liqueur boils, the crystals and extract will remelt with time. The large particles of the crystals can be crushed with a long needle probe to hurry up the process. When the crystals are dissolved, administer the magic liqueur while it is HOT. Using a syringe enables uniformity and accuracy of the dosages. Keep the liqueur stirred up to keep it uniform. The hot liqueur quickly becomes cloudy (precipitate) on slight cooling. A hot temperature of the liqueur with remelted crystals is important for accurate dosage administration.

While it is hot, dispense equal portions of the liqueur (10cc-20cc) into small storage jars with watertight caps. Each small jar is allowed to cool, the cap is put on and the jar is placed into the freezer for storage. Each jar is equivalent to an exact fraction of the original dry shroom weight so that dosage can be accurately controlled and determined.

When it is time to trip, the desired liqueur jars (with potency ratings) are removed from the freezer, allowed to warm to room temps, the lids taken off, a small fan is set up blowing air across the jars mouths and the liqueur is evaporated off to a manageable "hit" (variable alcohol). The small jars then become administration vessels where the entire contents (alcohol-water-crystalline extract) can easily be completely consumed.

PROCURING 190 PROOF ETHYL ALCOHOL ("Everclear" - "Golden Grain" et) FROM A LIQUOR STORE
First, call a well stocked liquor store and ask if they have 190 proof ethyl alcohol. Full service liquor stores supply hospitals and laboratories with 190 - 200 proof ethyl alcohol. If a permit is needed, call the state liquor board (usually in the State Capital) and ask for an application to get an ethyl alcohol permit. The fee is 5 or 10 dollars. On the application will be a question asking what the use of the alcohol will be. Write what they more or less want to hear. State that the use of the alcohol will be for "non-toxic surface sterilizing plus herb extraction - preservation - tincture - and perfume making" (or something to that effect).

Professor Fanaticus
2005"


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: PsiloSci]
    #26633379 - 04/28/20 03:07 AM (4 months, 23 days ago)

The crystals you get using that tek are mostly sugars and proteins, and are low in psilocybin content.


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #26633593 - 04/28/20 06:58 AM (4 months, 23 days ago)

:whathesaid:
And that's posted all over you don't need to bump old threads to copy and paste stuff. That's what search engines are for.


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26642076 - 05/01/20 09:44 PM (4 months, 19 days ago)

Yeah ^

I plan on doing an extraction totally anhydrous, that is supposed to prevent the sugars and proteins from mucking up your shit.
And supposedly doing purification and recrystallization from that can yield proper product.

Can i truly justify doing it? No, there are few legit reasons to want crystals I guess. But it's great sport, isn't it? I grow for a good part for fun (and experiment with breeding and stuff) and I am gonna neither sell nor destroy my crop. I also don't wanna stockpile as is.
Might as well use it to extract for kicks. Crystalline as a goal just being curiosity.

I don't think you want water to be present with these alkaloids long term anyway. You could still just use the resinous honey-like crude extract though, desiccate it etc... I guess you can also infuse something with it.
Personally I do not believe in liquid extracts, tinctures and elixirs and would probably add ascorbic acid if i did to avoid oxidation as a first degradation step leading to more irreversible steps.

I couldn't guarantee the stability going that route and like Alan would recommend to cut out all water totally.
Water is one of the cornerstones of chemical degradation so to speak, not every compound is sensitive to the same things but water makes ionization much easier which is bad for a whole bunch of degradation reactions.

Anyway one of the next things to do is dry my 3Å mol sieves without high vacuum (sucky vacuum tho), chromatography is also not something to do super casually.
I'm glad Alan's J. Nat. Prod reference also mentions anhydrous methanol as primary means of extraction, that is encouraging.


Edited by Solipsis (05/01/20 10:07 PM)


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Solipsis]
    #26649453 - 05/05/20 02:38 AM (4 months, 16 days ago)

From the paper linked above:

"When comparing areas under the curve, lyophilized [freeze-dried] basidiocarps showed a ratio of psilocybin:psilocin of 15:1, while basidiocarps that had not been dried showed a ratio of 5:1. Intriguingly, lyophilized carpophores extracted with a methanol−water mixture showed no increased dephosphorylation of psilocybin..."

and

"Our results indicate that the drying process itself determines dephosphorylation and that the presence of water after drying is of minor relevance. This, in turn, supports the view that dephosphorylation is an enzymatically catalyzed, rather than spontaneous, process."

what does this mean? if water in the extraction solvent has no effect facilitating degradation (at least in the short term), why go to such lengths (and expense) using a pure anhydrous alcohol? Is it simply to prevent extra sugars/carbs/junk etc from being extracted too?


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Hans Wermhat]
    #26662596 - 05/10/20 04:45 PM (4 months, 10 days ago)

Well lyophilization i.e. freezedrying is the only real way we currently know (aside from terribly inefficient desiccant shenanigans) to cold dry mushrooms which saves a lot of psilocin which we are used to losing because we either dry at room temp or higher temp basically.

That is an entirely different story from extraction though. Dephosphorylation results in psilocin which is more sensitive and thus more lossy.

But reasons for using the anhydrous method for extraction does not have to do with the freezedrying stuff. Water does various things here, it can play a role in the degradation of psilocin it seems, even non-enzymatically. But water also plays a role aiding in extracting stuff you don't want and so you can benefit from an extraction where not only the starting product is waterfree but also the solvents such as methanol... which is not the normal way things happen, it costs extra effort.

So yes i would say in extraction it is more about prevention the co-extraction of that other shit like the sugars and proteins. Cause that is really the major difficulty in separation which is the important feature of purification - initial extraction is generally easy but getting a pure product is a different thing here, as we have learned.


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Hans Wermhat] * 1
    #26705959 - 05/30/20 12:37 AM (3 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Hans Wermhat said:
why go to such lengths (and expense) using a pure anhydrous alcohol?




Analytical reagents are intrinsically expensive. Absolute methanol or ethanol from a chemical supplier is trivial in comparison to all the other costs in publishing. Start with a known baseline (analytical grade methanol), and your results can be reproduced by others in the scientific realm- which is the target audience, after all.

Nobody's publishing in Journal of Natural Products using Home Depot dentaured alcohol, anyway.


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26758020 - 06/19/20 07:25 PM (3 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:

Both dried mushrooms and pure psilocybin are very stable if it is kept completely dry.  Any moisture present will cause degradation of both dried mushrooms and pure psilocybin.




Know you wrote that while back but just seeing it. So does this mean not to store dried mushrooms in the freezer? I mean when you take the bag out it will cause moisture.


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: WisdomSeeker]
    #26808201 - 07/07/20 03:52 AM (2 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

WisdomSeeker said:
Know you wrote that while back but just seeing it. So does this mean not to store dried mushrooms in the freezer? I mean when you take the bag out it will cause moisture.





I would let them warm up before opening the bag/jar so you don't get condensation.


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26818522 - 07/12/20 02:21 AM (2 months, 10 days ago)

Check these out. second link is a good read.

https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_journal1.shtml

https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/psilocin.extraction.html

"A representative sample of 2 to 10g of dried mushrooms is ground to a fine powder by mortar and pestle. The powder is mixed with 100 mL of dilute acetic acid in a 250-mL beaker. The pH is readjusted to pH 4 with glacial acetic acid. After standing 1 h, the beaker is placed in a boiling water bath for 8 to 10 min or until the internal temperature of the acid mixture reaches 70°C. The beaker is removed and cooled to room temperature under running water. The acid mixture is separated from the mushroom powder by suction filtration using glass wool. The filtrate is brought to pH 8 with concentrated ammonium hydroxide and quickly extracted with two 50-mL portions of diethyl ether. Gentle mixing instead of shaking should be used to prevent an emulsion. The ether is dried over sodium sulfate, filtered, and evaporated under nitrogen with no applied heat.

Crude psilocin will appear as a greenish residue. Recrystallization from chloroform/heptane (1:3) yields white crystals. The resulting powder can then be submitted to infrared and mass spectral analyses."


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Re: Does psilocybin extraction work like THC extraction? [Re: redshadow]
    #26936361 - 09/15/20 06:39 AM (7 days, 7 hours ago)

Has anyone tried this? I bet ordering chloroform can be done online but it's actually easy to make at home. I think you need a glass funnel to seperate the final product. Interested to see if this works.


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