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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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The yin and yang of cultural evolution * 2
    #26935868 - 09/14/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

In the development of human societies over time, there is a clear opposition corresponding to the variables of intelligence vs. destructiveness. As cultures have evolved, the degree of cultural, and thus to a certain extent individual, intelligence has increased over time. This is a perfectly appropriate consequence of the principle of negative entropy. But as every yin has a yang, proportionate to the increases in intelligence is the capacity for destructiveness.

As we have gained more technology and therefore more power, we are more dangerous to ourselves – through wars, technological failures, environmental catastrophes, what have you. So it seems nature gives us no free lunch: if we wish to have increasing abilities as a civilization, we must pay for them with the increasing precariousness of our system socially, economically and ecologically.

It is in this sense that earlier, simpler societies are so appealing to some. While there certainly was no complex technology, there was neither the capacity for much harm to be done to most people, nor the planet itself. And it would seem that in the 21st century, almost everything humans are doing is, on an assortment of levels, very appreciably harmful.

Is there any way out of this cycle? Have there been, to your knowledge, historical societies that were exempt from it? It seems to me that it is unavoidable, but perhaps some discussion can be stimulated along these lines.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26935942 - 09/14/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

this precarious society is global, previous societies and empires were regional.
it could make a difference along with an awakening of environmental fragility.


it's like the "evolutionary" difference between a nearly two dimensional bacterial culture and a hive of bees.


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: redgreenvines] * 4
    #26936040 - 09/14/20 10:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Like Ram Dass used to say, “hippies create cops and cops create hippies.” Push too hard in one direction, trigger a counter reaction. I’m not sure if anything escapes this whether in human or nature more broadly.

Where we are right now is beyond precarious. As organisms, it astonishes me we’ve kept it up this long. I get the image of some members of a hopeful species pushing against the edges of some kind of rubber band and I fear we’re nearing the snap back. To continue the bad sports analogy, this isn’t a game and I see no sign of a center.

I’m not entirely convinced that this project of modernity was ever compatible with human nature and alienation runs deep. I think post modernism and all its own nonsense has been, in a sense, the polarity of this which has emerged.

Only issue is, we’ve now risen to a point where we can’t afford to topple simply because the consequences—nuclear, civil, etc—would likely mean game over for humans, plants and animals alike.

At the same time I don’t want to put human nature or potential in a box with my own cynicism. We are certainly resilient. The vision of artists like Bowie and the idea of us traversing the stars—put succinctly, some deeper, aspirational dream—certainly seems a possible, albeit unlikely scenario. Nonetheless, we would seem to have no other choice but to dream.

In a psycho-social sense, though, we need to get our own houses in order both intra and interpersonally before can ever imagine having the maturity to get off this planet in any sustainable way. Cultural evolution—the upside of human adaptability—would seem to be our only hope to this end.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: CountHTML]
    #26936407 - 09/15/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

therefore we need psychedelic therapy with support from all sectors.
everybody must get stoned!


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26936733 - 09/15/20 10:05 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the unrestrained growth of technology is the greatest threat that humans of the 21st century face.

technology has altered  the human equilibrium of nature.  nature was at one point the central structure of culture. now, technology is the central structure of modern culture.

through the 19th and most of the 20th centuries, the principal problem to which technology was applied was that of production .  this is no longer the decisive factor.  today, humans  are applying technology to the processing of information, and the regulation of human behaviour.  this has obviously broght about profound changes for human society.

to each new bit of technology, natural human behavior submits, becoming more tamed and docile - some may say more advanced.  either way, natural human behavior is removed as a threat to the system.  to gain further control, technology will continue to socialize human behavior into the system until humans are  no longer an obstacle to the development of technology.

a revolutionary direction is needed to take down the technoindustrial system that rules the world today.  modest reform  is not enough as the situation cannot be relieved by compromise.  the French and Russian revolutions are the only modern examples i can think of where persistent rebels were able to undermine the system and old values.  they did not settle for compromise.  what is the breaking point - how will human needs ever come before technological necessity?  humans were not designed to coexist with technoindustrial society.  the system provides people with sterotyped grievences to rebel against, but this is nothing but the system exploiting peoples impluses to rebel.  it's a slight of hand by the system that turns rebellion to its own advantage.  unless people come to understand the roots of their frustrations, they will continue to believe they are rebelling against a system, but they just feed into social changes that are actually co-opted by the system.

Quote:

Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an axe in the hand of a pathological criminal.

--Albert Einstein




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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26936840 - 09/15/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

"We have created a Star Wars civilization, with Stone Age emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology"

Idk if this is accurate but it sounds good and supports the narrative that we're a bunch of smart, stupid children running around with loaded firearms.  :shrug:

We aren't really in space yet, I'd agree that our institutions are medieval, and the technology although not godlike is pretty damn good I'd say.  Also, I'm not entirely sure what an emotion even is so I'd probably be forced to agree that it's Stone Age.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26936998 - 09/15/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

Is there any way out of this cycle? Have there been, to your knowledge, historical societies that were exempt from it? It seems to me that it is unavoidable, but perhaps some discussion can be stimulated along these lines.




there are some pictures of parts of rural Japan, where people modified the earth for rice farming, that seem to show a harmony between nature and man. This is some steps beyond hunter gatherer living. The pictures are beautiful, but perhaps no modern sophisticated person could bear to live this way. Perhaps the closest 'thing' in the US are the Amish. Some may know of other examples world wide. The rice farming is particularly interesting because the earth has been "tera-formed" in a way that seems very harmonious with nature. Of course such situations are very limited world wide, and much of Japanese History has probably been very violent. So I am not saying anything about 'shoulds' or 'coulds', only sharing some nice images.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/assets/img/miracle-rice/image-02-large.jpg

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/rice-paddies-japan-kumano-47528564.jpg

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rural+japan%2C+rice+farming&t=hk&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.dreamstime.com%2Fz%2Frice-paddies-japan-kumano-47528564.jpg


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #26937022 - 09/15/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

esthetics and production combined in this image:

https://jftor.org/wp-content/uploads/rice-terraces.jpg

completely opposite to American "culture" which lacks any sensibility what so ever.

the rise of billboards, after the highways, were first built,* being the most glaring example

although industrial America has always been a horror

.  Those living in urban America, who don't travel, or explore the world through visual resources, have no idea, how abused they have been and still are, and of course have no clue as to the effect this may have had on their psyches. The people that think Disneyland is an attractive environment, are considered pathetic by much of the rest of the world, whose cultures are older than 2-300 years; and where there are old stone buildings, many villages nestled in mountains, and the landscape has always been cherished. The USA is actually in many ways a sad place.
.    The US is sort of like a place where rich kids are given shiny new toys all the time, but not the two forms of attention they need, just simple loving attention on the one hand, and on the other hand discipline and training as well. Yes I know we now have wealth inequality and malnourished kids in the US today, but nothing like the tragedies going on in much of the rest of the world.
.  So to tie this in with your question DQ. After WWII, the USA became the dominant world power, and spread its style of greedy corporate capitalism world wide, so you are living in the heart of the beast, where the ugliness is the worst and most obvious (in a very general sort of way).
.  World wide junk food and fast food franchises are an american capitalist invention which we 'gifted' to the rest of the world. Now the consequent epidemics of obesity ** and diabetes have spread from the USA to numerous other countries. And this is just one example, of the American life style that has harmed so much of the planet. I don't know if the plastics problem can also mostly be the responsibility of the US, but certainly partly so.


* perhaps around the time of Eisenhower after WWII ?

**
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fat+people+in+america&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images


Edited by laughingdog (09/15/20 01:25 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26937100 - 09/15/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

well since we are at the yin and yang of this whole matter, please consider Milarepa. This feisty Bodhisattva of Tibet often depicted in the pose of listening (ahem... talk therapy anyone?)

he was a convicted murderer. (I think it was circumstantial, not like Trump who murders at arms length like any mafia kingpin).

so take heart. the point being, at some juncture in time, perhaps our enlightenment will dawn and we will listen to the moans of Gaia, and work to heal the whole.



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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26937196 - 09/15/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

thanks, i have never heard of Milarepa. 

can i call you for some good talk therapy i'm feeling very fiesty.  are you liscenced?

how are you going to hear Gaia through all that electromagnetic pollution?

the natural global electromagnetic resonance of earth, aka the Schumann resonances, run at the same control frequency as the human hippocampus and hypothalamus affecting the brain from the magnetite located near the pituitary gland as well as the pineal gland.  the electromagnetic pollution that humans are responsible for creating rob and/or makes it very difficult for humans to connect to their intuitive senses - which they would need intact to be able to hear Gaia in the first place.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937349 - 09/15/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I am not registered but i do accept payment, in hundreds only. start with 20 bills for a day, we'll zoom, that good enough?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #26937388 - 09/15/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

Is there any way out of this cycle? Have there been, to your knowledge, historical societies that were exempt from it? It seems to me that it is unavoidable, but perhaps some discussion can be stimulated along these lines.




there are some pictures of parts of rural Japan, where people modified the earth for rice farming, that seem to show a harmony between nature and man. This is some steps beyond hunter gatherer living. The pictures are beautiful, but perhaps no modern sophisticated person could bear to live this way. Perhaps the closest 'thing' in the US are the Amish. Some may know of other examples world wide. The rice farming is particularly interesting because the earth has been "tera-formed" in a way that seems very harmonious with nature. Of course such situations are very limited world wide, and much of Japanese History has probably been very violent. So I am not saying anything about 'shoulds' or 'coulds', only sharing some nice images.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/assets/img/miracle-rice/image-02-large.jpg

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/rice-paddies-japan-kumano-47528564.jpg

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rural+japan%2C+rice+farming&t=hk&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.dreamstime.com%2Fz%2Frice-paddies-japan-kumano-47528564.jpg





Indeed, good points, and of course the Taoists are in this vein as well. They seek to live simple lives, free of a plethora of stimuli, and they are very distrustful of technology. They would much rather focus on the natural, and on wholeness. I would say that their anthropological stage is beyond hgs as well, but is sustainable, desirable and enviable. Perhaps these Zen practices in Japan, and their Taoist counterparts on the continent, were the pinnacle of civilization. Who can say?

Either way, technology has, despite its widespread benefits, made the world a very much more dangerous place than how it started out. People might find this an ironic comment, but hunter-gatherers in Tanzania and nomadic herders in Mongolia did not have to worry about nuclear holocaust.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26937549 - 09/15/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

.  Perhaps war is not possible, without some "excess" or "surplus" population, this of course is what grain based agriculture eventually makes possible. However perhaps rice (as compared to other grains) is more dependent on seasonality, and so surplus is limited? Rural Japan certainly looks idillic.
.  Humans cannot control their birthrate, without nature doing so for them. In the case of hunter gatherers, nature does this. All of human technology has never controlled the birthrate, to a level that would optimize the quality of life for humans and the surrounding ecology. At this most basic level, all of human technology is a failure and not a success. This is overlooked, but fundamental in my view.
.  I just use war as an example of the harmfulness of technology. Many don't, but I do consider the rise of megacities, as another example of the harmfulness of technology.
.  "Man" wants to consider himself as different from all other animals, but reproduction, mating, or fucking, is perhaps the most basic animal function, and "man's" inability to control it, makes him most definitely an animal. His arrogance in thinking he can separate himself from nature, and rise above it in some sense, is considered by some to be at the root, of the whole technological mess.
.  It seems only tribal societies, and rural societies that mix some plant based agriculture, with a little trapping, fishing, or hunting, find enough joy in being close to nature to forgo the addictive pleasures of technological civilization.
.  If one looks at the industrial revolution, in England, one can see the naked horror of it at the start, before, western society learned to hide some of its realities--see the work of Gustave DorĂ© (1832-1883) for example:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=industrial+revolution%2C+england%2C+gustave+dore&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26937569 - 09/15/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

An eclectic dialectic.
The way we do.
From the ultimate skeptic.
To the gold lined skew.

Never at rest.
The balance finds a way.
Humanity to test.
The centre of the day.

The extremities though.
Now radical shifts.
Maybe will show.
When the centre rips.

On hundred steps fowards.
Countless back.
Impossible now.
To get a middle back

The art of the steal.
Leading out strong.
Moving the paradigm.
Lets hope were not wrong.



If there wasn't a push pull there would be no awareness of now...the moment between the past and the future.

We are caught by our expectation of a future
That is solely reliant on the framework of a past whilst trying to engineer a free and "enlightened" now....non of them are true in exclusion....and non of em are true when connected.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26937585 - 09/15/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am not registered but i do accept payment, in hundreds only. start with 20 bills for a day, we'll zoom, that good enough?




Quack!

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
People might find this an ironic comment, but hunter-gatherers in Tanzania and nomadic herders in Mongolia did not have to worry about nuclear holocaust.




it seems such societies are free of the psychological problems that man of the 21st century faces.  Frustration, depression, stress, anxiety, sleep disturbances, ect are all disorders for the most part, that are brought on by modern civilization.  with more self reliance, personal autonomy, interdependence and reliance on community, and a connection to the supernatural they were probably more satisfied with their way of life than 21st century man.  modern man seems to be the one out of touch with reality, living in a world of super intelligent ai, a toxic chemical filled environment that makes health almost impossible to achieve, and radioactive waste, all amongst amazing powers of self deception.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #26937600 - 09/15/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
.  Perhaps war is not possible, without some "excess" or "surplus" population, this of course is what grain based agriculture eventually makes possible. However perhaps rice (as compared to other grains) is more dependent on seasonality, and so surplus is limited? Rural Japan certainly looks idillic.
.  Humans cannot control their birthrate, without nature doing so for them. In the case of hunter gatherers, nature does this. All of human technology has never controlled the birthrate, to a level that would optimize the quality of life for humans and the surrounding ecology. At this most basic level, all of human technology is a failure and not a success. This is overlooked, but fundamental in my view.
.  I just use war as an example of the harmfulness of technology. Many don't, but I do consider the rise of megacities, as another example of the harmfulness of technology.
.  "Man" wants to consider himself as different from all other animals, but reproduction, mating, or fucking, is perhaps the most basic animal function, and "man's" inability to control it, makes him most definitely an animal. His arrogance in thinking he can separate himself from nature, and rise above it in some sense, is considered by some to be at the root, of the whole technological mess.
.  It seems only tribal societies, and rural societies that mix some plant based agriculture, with a little trapping, fishing, or hunting, find enough joy in being close to nature to forgo the addictive pleasures of technological civilization.
.  If one looks at the industrial revolution, in England, one can see the naked horror of it at the start, before, western society learned to hide some of its realities--see the work of Gustave DorĂ© (1832-1883) for example:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=industrial+revolution%2C+england%2C+gustave+dore&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images





Couldn't have said it better.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26937611 - 09/15/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
it seems such societies are free of the psychological problems that man of the 21st century faces.  Frustration, depression, stress, anxiety, sleep disturbances, ect are all disorders for the most part, that are brought on by modern civilization.  with more self reliance, personal autonomy, interdependence and reliance on community, and a connection to the supernatural they were probably more satisfied with their way of life than 21st century man.





It's important to note that this is not just a logical notion, or a sensible supposition, but anthropologists over the last several decades have confirmed it totally in their field work. It's beyond obvious at this point that we are doing ourselves in.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937617 - 09/15/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

One could almost equate the happiness of a people to the amount of clothing they wear.

Well, if we adjust for the climate zone, we could contrast the first cities in America, with the plains Indians, who considered cities disgusting.

Its a simple visual metric, that perhaps throws some light on the matter?

Interestingly healthy young children, are also often no fans of clothing, frequently even in spite of rain and winter weather.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937822 - 09/15/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am not registered but i do accept payment, in hundreds only. start with 20 bills for a day, we'll zoom, that good enough?




Quack!





I do not accept Ducks.



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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: The yin and yang of cultural evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #26937856 - 09/15/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
One could almost equate the happiness of a people to the amount of clothing they wear.

Well, if we adjust for the climate zone, we could contrast the first cities in America, with the plains Indians, who considered cities disgusting.

Its a simple visual metric, that perhaps throws some light on the matter?

Interestingly healthy young children, are also often no fans of clothing, frequently even in spite of rain and winter weather.




We look back at the ancient tradition of chinese foot binding and wonder how culture could create such a thing.

Westerners feet are foot bound by shoes.
Our toes are meant to be splayed but they are not.

We accept lasting physical transformations in order to fit in culturally.


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