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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Good Deeds * 1
    #26935011 - 09/14/20 11:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What is the worse crime, to force good deeds by way of a third party or to refuse to offer good deeds to a third party in need?

Feels like the ends are in competition with the means.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26935062 - 09/14/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

between coercion and neglect, the differences are as follows:
coercion is a form of enslavement which is a serious problem.
while neglect is emotionally numbing and can lead to serious problems.

but this is all too general, but in a general way, I think the coercion is harder to bear when all things are equal.

however,
when things are not equal, such as when the 1% controls more than 99% of wealth, then forcing higher taxes on the rich is a good form of correction not anything like enslavement.

neglect, however hurts everyone - both the neglector and the neglectee.
I think the neglectful person needs to awaken to the spirit within themselves so that they can have empathy with the feelings of others.
unfortunately since it comes from within, it cannot be coerced even if one tried for the sake of making things more equitable.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26935255 - 09/14/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
when things are not equal, such as when the 1% controls more than 99% of wealth, then forcing higher taxes on the rich is a good form of correction not anything like enslavement.






See what would green light you to prefer coercion when you earlier stated that, generally speaking, coercion is the less tolerable?

Why not protest and shame The Elite in order to get desired results?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26935270 - 09/14/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

do humans have an obligation to love their neighbor?  what is a neighbor? 

to love is to do something.  love recognizes no distinctions between people.

in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, the samaritan does not pause to consider what his duty might be.

compassion removes all limitations from obligations.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26935355 - 09/14/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What if what you are doing is coercion?  Is it still love?  Even with good intentions such as welfare/taxing the rich for example.  Rgv seems to give it a pass from what I can tell.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26935486 - 09/14/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I can say that ill will is contraindicated in all cases, but coercion is not always ill will.
The situation prevails when deciding whether coercion is called for to correct something out of balance.
Shaming is not something I would endorse as a form of coercion, but taxation is a real thing that can be used to correct the imbalance of wealth.
while coercion falls into the general category of driving (including slave driving) and steering as in the case of an economy, Shaming falls into the general bag with bullying.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26935491 - 09/14/20 04:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What if what you are doing is coercion?  Is it still love?  Even with good intentions such as welfare/taxing the rich for example.  Rgv seems to give it a pass from what I can tell.




love, in the case of acting compassionatly, is an unselfish concern for the welfare of another. 

it is an acceptance of responsibility. 

it does not mean doing what someone else wants, and in this case, sometimes acting in the interest of another may mean alienating them, as an individual should not be required (coerced) into surrendering their own judgement.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26935731 - 09/14/20 06:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the worse crime, to force good deeds by way of a third party or to refuse to offer good deeds to a third party in need?

Feels like the ends are in competition with the means.




Sounds like you want to be a judge when you grow up, and hand out 'just' sentences.

Look up case law on child support, since you want a hierarchy of these sorts of crimes.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26936408 - 09/15/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

yeah I used to save people from being bullied in school

we can't treat others in a negative way and things like that!

what if the smell in the kitchen means something to it

I mean of course it does

but right now even the leaders are destroying the fuck out of it and we need to wake up and understand buddha and zen or true philosophy before it's too late!

:mushroom2:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds *DELETED* [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26936421 - 09/15/20 05:59 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Ferdinando

Reason for deletion: seems like it should disappear


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26936422 - 09/15/20 05:59 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would say we can't afford city lights with how things are

mostly

...


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26936424 - 09/15/20 06:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

that's true

meditation can be encouraged and one can be in favor of it and like make it more done and broader in terms of existence and location like a push a recommendation and advice

and meditation can take care of almost everything


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26937095 - 09/15/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the worse crime, to force good deeds by way of a third party or to refuse to offer good deeds to a third party in need?

Feels like the ends are in competition with the means.




Sounds like you want to be a judge when you grow up, and hand out 'just' sentences.

Look up case law on child support, since you want a hierarchy of these sorts of crimes.




i didn’t think Yellow Pants was saying that man ought to act in a certain way.  it seems he was just pointing out that the behaviour that we find decent in others, including good deeds, is the one that happens to be most useful to us.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937111 - 09/15/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you mean deeds that are good for me?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26937165 - 09/15/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

yes, exactly.

feeling a desire to help another human is not the same thing as feeling that you ought to help - whether you want to or not.  it is dangerous to take an impulse of ones own nature, and set it as a thing to be followed at all costs.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937342 - 09/15/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

that sounds pretty desperate


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26937587 - 09/15/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that sounds pretty desperate




desperate for who?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937713 - 09/15/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

an interesting case was the soldier who jumped & threw himself on top of someone who fell on subway tracks as a train was coming and rolled with them between the wheels as the train went over them both

on the one hand amazing heroism

on the other hand there was probably no thought involved
but ironically military training probably was involved

so if there is no thinking
on what 'yardstick' are 'good' and 'bad' found?
and are they necessary?
or just something self judgmental religious folks encumber themselves with.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937804 - 09/15/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
yes, exactly.

feeling a desire to help another human is not the same thing as feeling that you ought to help - whether you want to or not.  it is dangerous to take an impulse of ones own nature, and set it as a thing to be followed at all costs.




then I said "it sounds pretty desperate"

because you said "at all costs".

never mind.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26937923 - 09/15/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I’m feelin desperate :barbershreds:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26938844 - 09/16/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

my understanding on the topic comes from studying the works of C.S. Lewis. 

it comes down to selfishness.

people may have different understandings of what it means to be unselfish, and people obviously have different ideas about morality, and different understandings about what people one should be unselfish towards, but there is a general agreement that you should not put yourself first.  of course, no one actually always behaves this way - nobody always puts others first all of the time.

in the instance of another's life being in danger, with very little time to act, when there are only reactions, there are two instincts/impulses, the one to help, and the one to keep yourself out of danger.  when there is nothing in the mind but these two instincts, the stronger of the two will prevail.  there is no such thing as a good or bad impulse. 

in situations that are not purely reactionary, when there is a conscious decision involved, a third thing judges between the two impulses, it is the thing that directs the instincts.  this thing may or may not tell you to side with the weaker of the two impulses.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26938875 - 09/16/20 11:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you are talking about having the awareness to deliberate between two responses.

I have to xlate some of your words in the last sentence which means everything and nothing:
reactionary -> reflex (not physics and not politics)
impulses -> conditioned responses (not hormonal drives, not innate)
instincts -> behavior (when behavior is not instinctual or innate)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939051 - 09/16/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
my understanding on the topic comes from studying the works of C.S. Lewis. 

it comes down to selfishness.

....




.    On some level, a lot of labeling about 'good' and 'bad', probably comes down to a value system we got from parents, teachers, &/or religious leaders; or if we are unfortunate from a gang, cult, or the military. If that is the case then of course the value system is man made (or cultural) and not absolute, and so is only relative, and not necessarily in accord with 'reality' or 'the universe'. In any case such value systems get internalized, become to some degree unconscious and are used not only to pigeon hole others, but to penalize ourselves.
.    So we get guilt, & then confession or psychoanalysis to deal with it; or alcohol to shut up the inner critic .
.    It is a mess, so Zen has a story where the punch line that leads to enlightenment is: "Don't think 'good', don't think 'bad'.

.    Of course there is a lot of interesting psychological literature on the subject as to how maleable people are in this regard, the most famous being Stanley Milgram's studies.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stanley+milgram&t=h_&ia=web

this book is more recent:
The Elephant in the Brain: Hidden Motives in Everyday Life 
Kevin Simler (Author), Robin Hanson (Author)

Amazon Review
"Human beings are primates, and primates are political animals. Our brains, therefore, are designed not just to hunt and gather but also to help us get ahead socially, often via deception and self-deception. But while we may be self-interested schemers, we benefit by pretending otherwise. The less we know about our own ugly motives, the better - and thus, we don't like to talk, or even think, about the extent of our selfishness. This is "the elephant in the brain".

Such an introspective taboo makes it hard for us to think clearly about our nature and the explanations for our behavior. The aim of this book, then, is to confront our hidden motives directly - to track down the darker, unexamined corners of our psyches and blast them with floodlights. Then, once everything is clearly visible, we can work to better understand ourselves: Why do we laugh? Why are artists sexy? Why do we brag about travel? Why do we prefer to speak rather than listen?

Our unconscious motives drive more than just our private behavior; they also infect our venerated social institutions such as art, school, charity, medicine, politics, and religion. In fact, these institutions are in many ways designed to accommodate our hidden motives, to serve covert agendas alongside their "official" ones. The existence of big hidden motives can upend the usual political debates, leading one to question the legitimacy of these social institutions, and of standard policies designed to favor or discourage them. You won't see yourself - or the world - the same after confronting the elephant in the brain."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939213 - 09/16/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

how do you differentiate conscious motives from unconscious motives?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939249 - 09/16/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you are talking about having the awareness to deliberate between two responses.

I have to xlate some of your words in the last sentence which means everything and nothing:
reactionary -> reflex (not physics and not politics)
impulses -> conditioned responses (not hormonal drives, not innate)
instincts -> behavior (when behavior is not instinctual or innate)




okay, i will work on rewording that.

to ld:

i only mentioned C.S. Lewis, because he has inspired so much in me.  i wouldn’t have the intelligence/heart to sort through this kind of thing if it wasn’t for his writings/lectures.  i'm an exteremly selfish person.  he is a philosopher who couldn’t help by living by what he thought.

there are facts, how man behaves, but that is not the whole story, because there is something about behavior that is not a fact, that is not made up by humans.  it goes beyond the facts of man's behavior, and there is more than one kind of reality to this behaviour, but it is a real thing.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939281 - 09/16/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how do you differentiate conscious motives from unconscious motives?




well you could start with a search engine and save us both a lot of time
as there is great deal of info. & who knows which you might find most useful
in continuing learning

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+do+you+differentiate+conscious+motives+from+unconscious+motives%3F&t=hk&ia=web


Edited by laughingdog (09/16/20 03:22 PM)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939291 - 09/16/20 03:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how do you differentiate conscious motives from unconscious motives?




well you could start with a search engine and save us both a lot of time
as there is great deal of info. & who knows which you might find most useful
in continuing learning

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+do+you+differentiate+conscious+motives+from+unconscious+motives%3F&t=hk&ia=web




ld, are you an artifical intelligence?

how can anyone learn anything about human nature through a serach engine? 

-unless of course you are an ai.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939316 - 09/16/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

he is using a technique to hide his ability to communicate his understanding.

I don't care what google thinks laughingdog thinks - I was asking laughingdog himself what he thinks, but he did not make the slightest effort to share.

I find phrases like "unconscious motives" have a distinct smell of bs.

your motives are your motives based upon conditioning.

unconscious or conscious does not alter the meaning of motive, but this word adds spookiness to the sentence.

this is not in google


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939334 - 09/16/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you are being silly
just do a search on something like:
"unconscious racial prejudice as measured in the lab"
and you will get the 'hard' evidence you seem to think is some mystery I cannot explain.

.  And there are many such studies, covering many things besides racial prejudice; prejudice just happens to be of great interest currently, and much discussed by those who are really interested.

.  You have had a 'hobby horse' about these terms (conscious, unconscious, & association) for years, that are not a problem for respected people in the relevant fields. As you cannot refute these people you seem to want to convince people on a forum where people are not experts that you are an authority, and have a unique insight into the human mind.

.  The amusing part is that you are so predictable in this matter, that indeed in your case it seems to be a reflex and not a matter of conscious choice.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26940089 - 09/17/20 04:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the term "unconscious" is abused


racial prejudice is a fact and we are conscious of it always. and if we do something we do not respect in others we call it "unconscious" so as to reduce the guilt of not de programming the reflex of hating the person who is different.

this is an example of using words to distort the truth, not to enable truth.

just leave it out, or use the term habit which is more accurate.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26940319 - 09/17/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would like some science in terms of the relation ship between the deep mind and subconscious

maybe we should understand it as deep mind to have thought activity of weeds mental and wholesome and pure and virtue mental items in the deep mind and push to and encouragement to meditation

as soon as the term deep mind comes up we want to meditate

and understand the philosophy of it (positive mind, detracting (weeds) mind (mental items)


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26940320 - 09/17/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

maybe all of mind is mental content


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26940329 - 09/17/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
your motives are your motives based upon conditioning.
this is not in google




so a daily drawing

I used to meditate lots to avoid making bad karma for others


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26940628 - 09/17/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Ferdinando,
please do not try to take any of these posts personally.

anyway I am not sure what you mean by deep mind.
because mind has no dimension as such - neither shallow nor deep.

Separately, IMO, nobody can justify "subconscious" mind except as the the thing we refer to which is the aggregate of memory and habits, and that is just mind, the extra term "subconscious" confuses everyone. There is no separate part of this non-dimensional thing which is sub-conscious, it is all mind and while not fully asleep, it is all part of consciousness.

Maybe you are referring to a particular feeling or calmness that is deeply resonant, which is common to notice after meditation at least for a few minutes, and for that experience using the term deep could be misleading as well (but it sounds good). We do not need to add verbal emphasis ('deep') to the simple experience that is just fine on its own.

Sometimes you get up after mediation, and there is no resonant clarity, just be aware of what is, as it is. Keep it simple.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26940687 - 09/17/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is all mind and while not fully asleep, it is all part of consciousness.





where/what is the mind when dreaming?


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26940866 - 09/17/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

while dreaming we are in a mixed conscious state that is too resonant to be called waking, and far too active to be called sleeping.

It is a natural thing that would occur just as we are waking up, or just as we are falling asleep. Some REM sleep does not result in fully awakening, however it is a partial awakening, it is definitely not the unconsciousness of sleeping.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26941722 - 09/18/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

who thinks one gets it of a higher quality from falling asleep


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941729 - 09/18/20 05:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

right, I agree

and I agree that it is hugely beneficial

I saw that when I meditated, I saw darkness but it wasn't just darkness, it was mental items, with quality and light in them different amount for each part

it was like entities

these are mental weeds

thought patterns

like I don't want to work

bhante said this I said

but I will say then that in the meditation the mental contents, part of which needs to be ridded, because it holds us back and

maybe it "drags on" (milarepa) like driving with the handbrake on or like crawling with one's ass behind arms dragging forward ruining one's time for the rest of one's life because were the weeds not the the behaviour would be better maybe inherently and we'd function better and be better for others


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941731 - 09/18/20 05:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I will say for science that the mental weeds are very much something that is seen visually

and the mind has so many of them

they need ridding (ego loss (somewhat (or entirely :laugh:)

what a relief and assistance it would be

and refreshment


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941747 - 09/18/20 05:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

yes sometimes time is fine even I probably had a good time today

it depends on what you did

painting is most effective for this

except extremes like reading you etc.

gnome world entrance etc.

meditation works for me

I press the meditation button (pause) deep/hard every day

I think it keeps me out of the psych ward from doing drugs not violent or things like this

I understand

I think I should do less substance and work more

for example with meditation and painting

I have been getting things done almost all the time lately

I take many showers every day because I escape being unhappy or become happy from it

there are some wonderful people here and incredibly successful

and psychedelic power is one of the best here

and we all have power of making it more readily (I mean popular and like being ready for liberation (because it is good so philosophically translated)


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941816 - 09/18/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
I will say for science that the mental weeds are very much something that is seen visually

and the mind has so many of them

they need ridding (ego loss (somewhat (or entirely :laugh:)

what a relief and assistance it would be

and refreshment



in your meditation, you can identify mental objects fairly if you are not reacting against them.

you need relief from reacting to what you see as positive and negative, such that in meditation you are merely touching what arises and passes away gently and calmly sitting still breathing together with what arises and passes away.

this way each mental form does not get another association chain following it, digging it more deeply into the mass of cognition and memory.

resume the breathing.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26941941 - 09/18/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

rgv deserved more recognition than buddha

he is more advanced and general in meaningful and equally significant and more significant philosophy than buddha

buddha talked about how to attain nirvana

rgv talks about what is good

and bad


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941988 - 09/18/20 08:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Dam...

:barbershreds:


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26942006 - 09/18/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it's absurd, to be expected


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26942015 - 09/18/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Oh c'mon just take the complement!  :rolleyes:


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26942747 - 09/18/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

take it where?


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26942802 - 09/18/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Idk.  Maybe to the Ego.  Knock on his door, see if he's interested?


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26943429 - 09/19/20 01:20 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the worse crime, to force good deeds by way of a third party or to refuse to offer good deeds to a third party in need?

Feels like the ends are in competition with the means.




The crime is to pretend that you are the lofty moral arbiter who could impose or fail to impose standards on another.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #26943571 - 09/19/20 05:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the game of arbitration allows players to moralize on a limited monopoly board - (roll) dice (and then) slice


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26943744 - 09/19/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
rgv deserved more recognition than buddha

he is more advanced and general in meaningful and equally significant and more significant philosophy than buddha

buddha talked about how to attain nirvana

rgv talks about what is good

and bad



Namaste - "I respect the buddha in you and appreciate the same", this is how I would translate it and say it; however, this is not a more or less kind of thing:
We each have as much Buddha-Nature as any other among us, and making a big deal of it while singling any person out always leads to confusion.

My immediate ego reaction was confusion and distaste, since my habit is to sit on the side and make odd comments that can help with the flow. (what I see as the flow of science, morality, consciousness...)

It may be a flaw, but that's me, I will not be your buddha - I am too busy dealing with my own nonsense and noise.

Enjoy the hat.



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Edited by redgreenvines (09/19/20 09:27 AM)


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #26943922 - 09/19/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the worse crime, to force good deeds by way of a third party or to refuse to offer good deeds to a third party in need?

Feels like the ends are in competition with the means.




The crime is to pretend that you are the lofty moral arbiter who could impose or fail to impose standards on another.





Then you might side with the Libertarian view that the lesser evil is neglect.

That's what I had in mind for this thread.  The dispute between Progressive Statism and Libertarianism.  The negative aspect to Progressive Statism is that you (The State) have to use force to take from the rich or the people in general but mostly the rich in order to serve the community or especially those people in need.  In Libertarianism the negative aspect is that the rich or the well off people neglect the community and don't volunteer a fair share of the booty to the rest of the community or those people in need.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26944236 - 09/19/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I see a difference between being selfish and being self centered. In truth, there is little semantic difference between the two but one satisfies shared interests and one satisfies a self interest without regard for others.

Almost any case of altruism can be shown to benefit the self in some way.

In some cases a person does not see a self benefit to a particular action or the perceived cost is more than the perceived gain, and the action does not occur.

In some cases one must make compromises.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Rahz]
    #26944625 - 09/19/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Almost any case of altruism can be shown to benefit the self in some way.




If this is the case then we ought to be able to do away with The State totally.

But many would not buy this assertion.  Or rather altruism simply is not tempting.  Despite the personal benefits it may bring it doesn't hold allure especially to those who are out getting dat money and power.  This may be the contradiction that effectively justifies the use of force to achieve social welfare.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26946112 - 09/20/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Almost any case of altruism can be shown to benefit the self in some way.




If this is the case then we ought to be able to do away with The State totally.

But many would not buy this assertion.  Or rather altruism simply is not tempting.  Despite the personal benefits it may bring it doesn't hold allure especially to those who are out getting dat money and power.  This may be the contradiction that effectively justifies the use of force to achieve social welfare.




Animals behavior is the result of mainly genetics and environment, and not of an external force with its own goal. So ants do what ants do (live for the hive) and chimps and baboons do what they do (a lot of hierarchical behavior). Us humans are very much like these 2 primates when it comes to behavior. Its not about to change because of some intellectual's political theories, like Karl Marx, or other theorizer.

Some 'altruism' is explained by other family members carrying the same genes, as explained by Dawkins.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=altruism+and+genes&t=hk&ia=web


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26948402 - 09/21/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Almost any case of altruism can be shown to benefit the self in some way.




If this is the case then we ought to be able to do away with The State totally.






I'm not sure how you get to that. Altruism isn't common enough to do away with the state. Regarding the OP, it's a good question. I tend to think that the more force is used, the more push back there will be. People who do well probably tend to share, but they also like to have control over how they share. Maybe the least force necessary to maintain the status quo is the lesser crime? But as time goes by wealth amasses and more force is necessary. The receivers become dependent and resent it. The givers resent it. It falls apart eventually.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Rahz]
    #26949651 - 09/22/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I'm not sure how you get to that. Altruism isn't common enough to do away with the state. Regarding the OP, it's a good question. I tend to think that the more force is used, the more push back there will be. People who do well probably tend to share, but they also like to have control over how they share. Maybe the least force necessary to maintain the status quo is the lesser crime? But as time goes by wealth amasses and more force is necessary. The receivers become dependent and resent it. The givers resent it. It falls apart eventually.




I mean like if altruism benefits the self then giving especially amongst the wealthy should produce great personal benefits because they have so much to give.  It is not common enough to do away with The State.  But I wonder whether altruism would become more "hip" and "cool" if there wasn't a State.  It is difficult for the wealthy to be altruistic when force is being used to take.  The poor often don't have the luxury of discerning how their benefits are received.  Whether it's through voluntary means or means that acquired the gifts through force.  A certain degree of entitlement goes to people who work relatively hard yet don't amass much fruits. 

Idk though it's fairly convoluted and no shortage of angles and perspectives to come at it analytically.  Maybe the ends or simply the current status of things are all that matters.  But I know that I prefer a gift that was genuine whether I am receiving or giving.  This tends to slide me right wing in the scope of less government is more.  Not the Fascism right wing.

Also, I think a question to ask is Why does wealth amass?  Like you said more force then becomes necessary to spread it around.  Evidently The Elite are not tempted by altruism enough.  This has led me to examine the economy itself and its structure as a means of making things more level and balanced.  The worker-coop must be right around the corner!


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26950255 - 09/22/20 10:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps the state produces the least amount of force at any given time? Or is that an unreasonable assumption?

Why wealth amasses is another difficult question. Seems like most sociological/economic questions are complicated. People are greedy and it takes money to make money (or at least makes it easier). Wealth amasses because it can, short version. Like political power, there's a pyramid. In a more communistic society, position is power, though money still get's made under the table.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Rahz]
    #26951026 - 09/23/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Perhaps the state produces the least amount of force at any given time? Or is that an unreasonable assumption?




I don't think speed limits should be enforceable.  "35" ought to be a suggestion based on a subjective analysis of what a safe speed would be on a given stretch of road.  This approach is attractive on many other levels.

It sacrifices safety for greater liberation and freedom.  Yet some categories would be more difficult to let freedom prosper.  Like legit violence.  Or grand theft.  Or severe social neglect.  Imo the suffering would have to get extreme and consistent in order for force to become warranted.  But fucking speed limits?  I got picked up for going 32 in a 25 trap a few months ago.  I said "Yes sir", "No sir" with complete submission.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26951416 - 09/23/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Perhaps the state produces the least amount of force at any given time? Or is that an unreasonable assumption?




I don't think speed limits should be enforceable.  "35" ought to be a suggestion based on a subjective analysis of what a safe speed would be on a given stretch of road.  This approach is attractive on many other levels.

It sacrifices safety for greater liberation and freedom.  Yet some categories would be more difficult to let freedom prosper.  Like legit violence.  Or grand theft.  Or severe social neglect.  Imo the suffering would have to get extreme and consistent in order for force to become warranted.  But fucking speed limits?  I got picked up for going 32 in a 25 trap a few months ago.  I said "Yes sir", "No sir" with complete submission.




2 different things, a small town speed trap and the German AutoBahn with no speed limits.
Also different are all sorts of different road conditions etc.

But I get that if your pissed, it all seems the same.

Getting a ticket for speeding, (also by no great amount, (but not getting, a ticket for having a glass of wine too many at a party, which wasn't noticeable ( but I knew), over a decade ago), caused me to abandon some useless rebellion & wise up.
In any case the real penalty is not the fine, but what such events may do to one's insurance rates. And I think insurance works according to statistics & not what I may think is reasonable.


Edited by laughingdog (09/23/20 04:26 PM)


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26951581 - 09/23/20 06:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Instead of regular, progressive testing and other safer driving insurances like mandatory car inspections we are given an exaggeration of police force and ludicrous speed limit restrictions.  Garbage !

The statement can then be made that at least for the time being we are evidently concerned with a good response rather than pre-emptive measures.  This could be a trend in other areas of society and not just driving culture. 

For example if you (or me) sucks at driving then you should be tested accordingly and made to learn better driving habits.  Instead, we wait for a terrible car crash that kills half a family where you were driving 5 under the speed limit and happened to wonder across the dividing line.  The ambulance and police showed up quickly however to note the terrible situation. 

Meanwhile competent drivers log endless miles of repressed and reduced speeds.  :nonono:


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26951604 - 09/23/20 06:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Same with drug use, wine in laughingdog's case.  We should be allowed free reign with the catch that we must commit to regular, maintenance in terms of adapting our ability to handle such freedoms more gracefully.  :shakefist:

Although, yes, wine is already free reign.  But all drugs in general or at least a far greater amount of them decided by I don't know what metric.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26952283 - 09/24/20 07:30 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I got a $350.00 ticket 20 years ago when I owned a used Cadillac Seville (the manual on page 1 assured adequate acceleration at any speed). I was only going warp 1 on a country highway.

damn cops, "yes sir, no, sir"...


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26952604 - 09/24/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
yes, exactly.

feeling a desire to help another human is not the same thing as feeling that you ought to help - whether you want to or not.  it is dangerous to take an impulse of ones own nature, and set it as a thing to be followed at all costs.




sounds like basic taoism

on the other hand, a judge should be impartial, and not just favor those she likes

balance


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26952632 - 09/24/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Perhaps the state produces the least amount of force at any given time? Or is that an unreasonable assumption?




I don't think speed limits should be enforceable.  "35" ought to be a suggestion based on a subjective analysis of what a safe speed would be on a given stretch of road.  This approach is attractive on many other levels.

It sacrifices safety for greater liberation and freedom.  Yet some categories would be more difficult to let freedom prosper.  Like legit violence.  Or grand theft.  Or severe social neglect.  Imo the suffering would have to get extreme and consistent in order for force to become warranted.  But fucking speed limits?  I got picked up for going 32 in a 25 trap a few months ago.  I said "Yes sir", "No sir" with complete submission.




This could be covered in the idea of blanket law. Some people cause legit violence driving at whatever speed they like. If having a speed limit prevents violence then we can compare violence caused vs violence saved.

BTW, I will address most people as sir and maam, even the young at times. Being polite isn't submissive, though certainly there's an aspect of submission in accepting the preliminary judgement of an officer. It's also smart. I've had police thank me numerous times for being respectful.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Rahz]
    #26952706 - 09/24/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

yup
"yes sir" & "no sir"
hands on the wheel
wallet on the dash board

respect goes around
comes around


Edited by laughingdog (09/24/20 12:54 PM)


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Rahz]
    #26952918 - 09/24/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
This could be covered in the idea of blanket law. Some people cause legit violence driving at whatever speed they like. If having a speed limit prevents violence then we can compare violence caused vs violence saved.

BTW, I will address most people as sir and maam, even the young at times. Being polite isn't submissive, though certainly there's an aspect of submission in accepting the preliminary judgement of an officer. It's also smart. I've had police thank me numerous times for being respectful.





Yes I don't want to come across as saying that politeness is submissive.  But to go with and accept an officer's judgements about the situation and the process that is to happen pretty much is I'd say.  One could be respectful or an asshole and still submit to the might of The State.  On the other hand, it would be an interesting tactic to be respectfully antagonistic.  Ignore the flashing lights to pull over, wave a friendly hand out the window while driving away at a high speed, say nice things to the officer as he follows you into your house where you barricade and arm yourself with a firearm etc. etc.

https://www.idrivesafely.com/defensive-driving/trending/it-time-american-autobahn

Germany has a more preferable conception of what driving and transportation is about imo.  Take greater safety measures before and then let the safer driver drive how he or she wants after. 


Edited by Yellow Pants (09/24/20 03:01 PM)


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26952935 - 09/24/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Yes I don't want to come across as saying that politeness is submissive.  ... arm yourself with a firearm etc. etc.




In your statement you go from A to Z in a flash, for no good reason, if you drive like that or live like that -- perhaps the universe will reflect that back, and you will be left wondering, why & how it happened.

I've seen it happen in just seconds, with a person swatting at an insect, and among a group of people they are the one gets stung. Seen it in a people to people interaction.
Is basic wisdom in literature of many cultures, but of course these teachings would not be necessary if everyone was a quick learner.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26952972 - 09/24/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Yes I don't want to come across as saying that politeness is submissive.  ... arm yourself with a firearm etc. etc.




In your statement you go from A to Z in a flash, for no good reason, if you drive like that or live like that -- perhaps the universe will reflect that back, and you will be left wondering, why & how it happened.

I've seen it happen in just seconds, with a person swatting at an insect, and among a group of people they are the one gets stung. Seen it in a people to people interaction.
Is basic wisdom in literature of many cultures, but of course these teachings would not be necessary if everyone was a quick learner.





So you believe in Karma?


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26953048 - 09/24/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

don't know what you take Karma to mean

sometimes refers to cause & effect

sometimes refers to notions of morality

sometimes refers to past lives,

etc etc

In the loose sense that if you smile at folks they tend to smile back, where as if you insult them things tend to go worse ... sure
as regards past lives, they are not a belief I feel I need.

Then there is the matter of what is called 'self fulfilling prophecies', and psychosomatic diseases.

So what do you mean by it? And where do you see impartial cause and effect at work in your life, or find yourself free of it?


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26953136 - 09/24/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If we are talking about people that is one thing.  If I smile repetitively then I can expect to on average receive a smile however inauthentic in return.  I guess what I mean by Karma is that potential force that steers natural processes in a corresponding way.  So no determinism 100%.  For example, can a rock sitting on top of a large cliff where you are driving your car under fall at an inopportune moment?  And does your history of deliberately keying cars as a teenager create this synchronicity of the rock breaking from the cliff and falling onto your car with perfect timing?  Is this just a witty coincidence that you assert or is it something else, is it Karma? 

An there may well be an unconscious actor that tries to align the appropriate synchronicities.  Assuming the unconscious is far more knowledgeable which I take it to be then it could be the case imo.  This wouldn't be asserting anything supernatural but just the view that we are more than we seem to be.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26953328 - 09/24/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

hideous to imagine an unconscious actor stumbling around and allocating justice, brrrr.

worse so to assume this blacked out drunk fuck is responsible for my situation.

No. no unconscious actor here.
I have my personality and that in action is the world I experience.
Another agency pranking around in that is not from in my mind.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26953429 - 09/24/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Karma seems to be an ancient idea from Hinduism.
It was used to justify the caste system,
or the idea that say someone is poor cause they were bad or greedy in a past life.
Looked at in this way it is just an example of rationalization.

Seems in buddhism it may refer more to simply: cause and effect.
Depending on whether one thinks notions of reincarnation are essential to Buddhism;
people differ on this point.

A more modern term that takes into account some oddities of making predictions, is statistics, which can either distort or produce good and accurate results.

In terms of how humans act, some things are often predicted by others, that the person themselves fails to see. Many tragic stories tell of such events, where a headstrong person fails to listen to good advice, with predictable results. This type of action and reaction is called 'karma' by some.

So it seems there is little evidence that the Universe or St. Peter keeps some kind of moral scorecard, but that indeed some types of patterns do lead to certain types of results. Recidivism among recently released former inmates, being an example.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: laughingdog]
    #26953855 - 09/25/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

read my post. the translation of Karma is action. it is the action of your personality in the world.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26954176 - 09/25/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

But, but your action in the world is pretty much based on an internal state.  Would you say that your internal states are always 100% aware of all the conditions that factor in to a thought or a feeling etc.? 

Ime I often do not know why I do certain things and it goes without saying that Idk how or why I feel or think in a particular way.  Unconscious agency man.  :goodmorning:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26954180 - 09/25/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

like don't waste your life or the lives of others


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26954546 - 09/25/20 02:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
But, but your action in the world is pretty much based on an internal state.  Would you say that your internal states are always 100% aware of all the conditions that factor in to a thought or a feeling etc.? 




i tend to use the word "states", for resonant state of mind such as when stoned or alert and awake, because these pervasive states affect the whole mental system.
In this case you are talking about mental contents (internal states is still used in neurophysiology to discuss anything in the brain including localized 'contents', but it is an unfortunate habit to keep that up as it doesn't mean the same thing to any two scientists, and it goes from contents to mood to etiology (injury or disease)).

so what I would say is that you are aware of what you are aware of, because you are interested in following it, however, Fragments of experience penetrate your mind and affect your total context even if you are not paying direct attention, fleshing out the picture and feelings as it were. Like the details on that umbrella, and the pickets of a cute white fence around a garden, 3 or 4 cars rumbling at a stoplight... everything comes together to form the experience before it fades, with only what you are interested in sticking out. Your action is a reaction to the totality of experience, to what you were doing before (momentum), and to whom you are - i.e. according to your personality and your habits.
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Ime I often do not know why I do certain things and it goes without saying that Idk how or why I feel or think in a particular way.  Unconscious agency man.  :goodmorning:



you may not analyze what you are doing, and you may not pay much attention to what you are doing, or even have words to explain what you are doing, but you are not doing it unconsciously unless you are sleep walking.

habits can keep you walking as you think of other things, but you are still conscious, just looking at the outside world through a smaller hole in your mask.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26954618 - 09/25/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Breathing is my good deed.


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26954670 - 09/25/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:whateverhuman:


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26954800 - 09/25/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so what I would say is that you are aware of what you are aware of, because you are interested in following it, however, Fragments of experience penetrate your mind and affect your total context even if you are not paying direct attention, fleshing out the picture and feelings as it were.




Here you seem to be saying that there is an exterior kind of thing to the state of being aware of only certain things.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26955084 - 09/25/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
But, but your action in the world is pretty much based on an internal state.




I think the intent of the internal state ("the heart") will ultimately weigh more in a moral dilemma.

For example, if I create a foundation, it could be out of my desire to avoid paying my fair share of taxes and avoid any form of social responsibility so that I can vainly puff up my ego with non-profit legacy-building. Such a foundation might ultimately end up doing some social good, but my actions in that case were narcissistic. This is overtly a good deed, but it could be done with a heart of evil.

Likewise, I may ask "the rich" to pay my fair share of taxes for me, to avoid any form of social responsibility so that I can vainly puff up my ego with victim-mentality covert narcissism, feeling like I have done my good deed on this earth by demanding that someone else should do the heavy lifting for me. Thus even an overtly good deed can be done for intentions that are bad.

Or, I could work very hard, get rich, and create a foundation to do beautiful things and support a truly fair system of taxation to encourage all to work hard and increase the systemic standard of living for all out of altruism.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955096 - 09/25/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

So maybe it depends on each specific situation and each specific dilemma.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955480 - 09/26/20 02:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I like the word mental system

lot of potential there

so the more awake you are

and kind and understanding

and aware

and turned on in the way you look at things and think of things like understanding everything and AM just AM because I understand what I see for what it is I understand that if I had the time of green metaphorically that it would be fine

the better one gets including for one's surroundings

like this isnes broad wide brain cranked up to serious overview


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26955482 - 09/26/20 02:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you have to have a brain where you makme progress on all fields

like when we care about everything

that can happen

at an early age

sometimes that happens during meditation

all fields in one life not all fields although it may


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26955485 - 09/26/20 02:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

ah not sure sorry if I said something not true I'm not sure all fields can be benefitted from meditation

but it is really powerful 50% that after many hours of meditation that can happen like at age 62


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26955635 - 09/26/20 06:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so what I would say is that you are aware of what you are aware of, because you are interested in following it, however, Fragments of experience penetrate your mind and affect your total context even if you are not paying direct attention, fleshing out the picture and feelings as it were.




Here you seem to be saying that there is an exterior kind of thing to the state of being aware of only certain things.




there is a totality of experience - what enters the mind through sensation and how we react to what enters the mind (thoughs and actions). what is exterior to mind (what has not entered as sensation) is infinite, both beyond the moment, beyond range of sensation, and within range of sensors, but ignored as immaterial to your task.

what you are aware of - i.e. what makes it to your central focus or concern may be very few nanometers in an electron microscope, or parsecs wide as you examine a Quasar in the heavens, however you are also aware to a lesser extent of how tight your left shoe is, or an itch behind your ear.

to a lesser degree you may intermittently be aware of a disturbing smell.

this is not evidence of a subconscious, but of the fact that you might need a bath.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Good Deeds [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955757 - 09/26/20 08:51 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
I think the intent of the internal state ("the heart") will ultimately weigh more in a moral dilemma.

For example, if I create a foundation, it could be out of my desire to avoid paying my fair share of taxes and avoid any form of social responsibility so that I can vainly puff up my ego with non-profit legacy-building. Such a foundation might ultimately end up doing some social good, but my actions in that case were narcissistic. This is overtly a good deed, but it could be done with a heart of evil.

Likewise, I may ask "the rich" to pay my fair share of taxes for me, to avoid any form of social responsibility so that I can vainly puff up my ego with victim-mentality covert narcissism, feeling like I have done my good deed on this earth by demanding that someone else should do the heavy lifting for me. Thus even an overtly good deed can be done for intentions that are bad.

Or, I could work very hard, get rich, and create a foundation to do beautiful things and support a truly fair system of taxation to encourage all to work hard and increase the systemic standard of living for all out of altruism.




Hm so you are saying that if for example there are two identical external situations that a 3rd party appraiser if he knew the internal states of the people making the decisions in terms of force, need etc. that his appraisal could be different for the two identical situations because the internal states of the people may be different, their intentions could be different.  :awesomenod:

In other words you could say that a third party observer can never make total moral appraisals because he doesn't nessarily realize the subjective states of the people making the decisions.


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