|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
The illusion of freedom 1
#26934335 - 09/13/20 10:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I saw a guy wearing a 'Land of the Free' T-shirt today, emblazoned with an American flag.
I couldn't help but think..
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Is freedom actually a thing?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
Donger
Stranger
Registered: 05/18/17
Posts: 210
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
|
|
I'd say it is but it isn't. It's a deep question. The perseption is strong but there's always something to counter it and if not simply that then at least a price to pay.
Edited by Donger (09/13/20 10:56 PM)
|
Sporagami
Sufficiently talented fool


Registered: 09/11/20
Posts: 97
Loc: Middle of a dumpster fire
Last seen: 11 months, 10 days
|
|
You sir have posited a very interesting question. I'm not a clever man but I dont know if one can truly know. Yes if you take away rule of law there is i freedom to act as one wishes but there is a sort of societal rule, which presents its own set of consequences the results of which could limit your choices by removing possibilities from you. Law came about in the ages of the strong ruling by the weaker convincing everyone to relinquish power to a centralized governing body that if boiled down results in ones own demise in a very roundabout sort of way. So i think you could say freedom is limited by ones own need for self preservation and what system you live under and what it allows you to do before intervening. So mabey its a yes and no depending on what you are willing to accept as a risk or consequence. But in the end we are all smaller than a blip in the grand scheme of things so who knows. Also i should probably mention I'm fairly impaired at the moment so take my rant as you will.
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Sporagami]
#26934363 - 09/13/20 11:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It strikes me that the most efficient way to remove someones freedom is to convince them that they have it, first and foremost.
Once you have that done; well, the world is your oyster, as they say...
Orwellian vibes, everywhere.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
|
Freedom is real. Trust.
However, secruity is not.
We are not totally free in America as a collective. Not by a long shot. People need to be respectful of others freedoms. Increasing your freedom at the expense of others is wrong and I believe this is our problem. However, we are fighting an intangible war of ideas coming from intangible entities that survive from greed and the death of the American citizen and our fatherland.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Kelazam
All



Registered: 05/18/17
Posts: 1,146
|
|
nope
-------------------- .
|
yeah


Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 3,729
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
|
|
--------------------
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: yeah]
#26934411 - 09/14/20 12:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
America is among the most free nations you can live in in multiple ways, but no, there's no such thing as a totally free country obviously. But then again, some people would not want to live in a totally free country if they experienced it. Freedom in all aspects is not inherently a good thing, freedom is just freedom. You can do and experience a lot of good and awful things with total freedom. The more freedom one person has, could also mean the less freedom another has.
--------------------
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence] 1
#26934421 - 09/14/20 01:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
We are all indebted to our peers the moment we are born.
An alkaloid does not occur alone, neither does a man.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26934441 - 09/14/20 02:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said: The more freedom one person has, could also mean the less freedom another has.
This is not true. If everyone is free how can one oppress another? It can't happen unless we define freedom differently. This seems to be the case. Otherwise, you don't understand freedom.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26934443 - 09/14/20 02:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Because with total freedom in general, there'd be no legally enforced consequences for anything, right? So someone could literally be free to make someone else a slave, taking away that someone else's freedom. What is your definition of total freedom? That only existed before laws were invented.
--------------------
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence] 1
#26934448 - 09/14/20 02:18 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
You don't understand freedom lol
Again... if everyone had total freedom and autonomy, how can one oppress another?
Go ahead, I'll wait.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26934457 - 09/14/20 02:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Everyone can't have total freedom, because not everyone is respectful of other peoples' freedoms. That's my point. It's not even possible. In your utopian idea of a fully free society, I guess what I am saying can't apply. But by definition, a free utopia can only be imagined.
--------------------
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence] 1
#26934460 - 09/14/20 02:57 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Who hurt you?
Total freedom is possible. The contest of freedom is alive and well and hopefully, when it draws near the end, we as a collective choose to be free.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26934467 - 09/14/20 03:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Total freedom means no one can oppress another. You need a dictionary or you need to stop pushing freedom as oppression like it's okay because it's not.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Edited by Shiithead (09/14/20 03:10 AM)
|
Kelazam
All



Registered: 05/18/17
Posts: 1,146
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26934468 - 09/14/20 03:08 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
free will doesn't exist though. One event will always 100% of the time lead to the outcome event, that event being a thought, action, word, anything. Everything happens because of the previous and the previous happened because of the previous's previous and so on to the beginning of time.
-------------------- .
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Kelazam] 1
#26934469 - 09/14/20 03:13 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It blows my mind how many people here don't want to believe in freedom or can't wrap their heads around it. You'd think a bunch of psych users would be obsessed with being free and liberating others from their minds. Pretty sad state of affairs.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Kelazam]
#26934471 - 09/14/20 03:18 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
You are not free to make someone your slave here. Both of our examples work, according to the definition, they're just different ways of looking at it. So I'm just going to stop arguing about it. No clue where you got the idea I was saying oppression was okay..I was just saying that's how some people just are..but whatever
Either way, nobody should hear "land of the free" and take it literally and start talking about how not free it is. No shit, we have laws. We have a lot more freedom than most of the world though.
--------------------
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26934483 - 09/14/20 03:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said: No clue where you got the idea I was saying oppression was okay..I was just saying that's how some people just are..but whatever
You said total freedom is not possible because that would infringe on others freedoms. You are equating freedom to oppresion. That is not okay. For that I say you need to educate yourself or go fuck yourself.
Your choice.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26934484 - 09/14/20 03:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Modern freedom is dependency. If you can truly go live in the woods and support yourself, not a single resource from another person... You are free. I laugh at internet warriors claiming to be free. So naive.
The reality is we depend on one another.
I totally agree with the OP that freedom is an illusion, but not because I can't shoot people who threaten me not tell the police to get fucked. There's few men who can be the butcher, Baker and candlestick maker all at once. Very rare breed.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
Edited by Northerner (09/14/20 08:43 AM)
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Northerner]
#26934486 - 09/14/20 03:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Northerner said: There's few men who can be the butcher, Baker and candlestick maker all at once. Very rare breed.
Sup?
Also, why does freedom have to be exclusively for men? Are you saying that women have to depend on people for their freedom? Get real.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
zZZz
jesus



Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: I saw a guy wearing a 'Land of the Free' T-shirt today, emblazoned with an American flag.
I couldn't help but think..
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Is freedom actually a thing?
it is through our Lord Jesus Christ whom gave his life and soul for us sinners
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: zZZz] 1
#26934498 - 09/14/20 04:07 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Tell em zZZz.
Let our people go!
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
zZZz
jesus



Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead] 1
#26934500 - 09/14/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
God has blessed you
|
Apollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)


Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: zZZz]
#26934504 - 09/14/20 04:17 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Total freedom is me living up stream, and throwing my garbage, shit piss and dead bodies in the river and letting the lesser, downstream subhumans deal with it.
--------------------
"I'm looking at you looking at it" SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book
|
Ahab McBathsalts
OTD Windmill Administrator




Registered: 11/25/02
Posts: 35,107
Loc: Wind Turbine, AB
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: zZZz] 2
#26934506 - 09/14/20 04:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
True freedom would be an anarchist state with no private property, no police, no prisons, no government. Like Ted Kaczynski would imagine.
-------------------- "Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's going to die."
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
|
I think of the founding fathers or the Jewish people trying to free themselves from oppression.
Guess we know where you stand.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
zZZz
jesus



Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26934514 - 09/14/20 04:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
God has blessed the Jewish peoples and He Loves them very much indeed He Does!
|
Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 7,129
Loc: West of Windward
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
|
|
Freedom from rule of law or freedom from causality (as in free to direct your own path through life or is everything basically set in stone since the big bang?)
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: zZZz]
#26934699 - 09/14/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
They don't like Jesus though.
--------------------
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
|
No private property? That's fucked.
--------------------
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26934709 - 09/14/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The illusion of freedom is one dimension to our experience, However, the freedom of illusion is another.
Get comfy with it.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26934722 - 09/14/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shiithead said:
Quote:
Northerner said: There's few men who can be the butcher, Baker and candlestick maker all at once. Very rare breed.
Sup?
Also, why does freedom have to be exclusively for men? Are you saying that women have to depend on people for their freedom? Get real.
I never said that at all.
What about non-binary gender identifying people? Are you saying they don't even exist? Or just that they don't even deserve mentioning when it comes to freedom?
Or shall we just end this semantic fuckery here?
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
|
spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: I saw a guy wearing a 'Land of the Free' T-shirt today, emblazoned with an American flag.
I couldn't help but think..
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Is freedom actually a thing?
Fuck yeah it is.
Edit: and I'm not talking about "American freedom"
-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
Edited by spirit_shadow (09/14/20 08:43 AM)
|
Magenta
I care!!


Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 20,322
Loc: The land of plenty
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
|
|
This is a clip from The Wonder Years. It aired in 1988 but it's one of my favourite scenes and i think that it's still relevant to this day especially in this thread.
--------------------
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Magenta]
#26934801 - 09/14/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Ah, The Wonder Years. Fond memories man. I loved that show.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
|
Magenta
I care!!


Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 20,322
Loc: The land of plenty
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Northerner]
#26934899 - 09/14/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Cool that you're a fan too man? What do you think of Louis' opinions?
--------------------
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Magenta]
#26934960 - 09/14/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Louis seems to have his head screwed on his shoulders pretty solidly in my opinion. In fact they pretty much mirror my opinions.
The 1984 ironies showing through loud and clear in the clip. War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength. Still the same intrinsic western society social inequalities leaping through the generations as well, yet no resolution to this day.
It appears that not so much has changed in the world despite everything seeming to have changed.
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,232
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Northerner]
#26934984 - 09/14/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Ice9]
#26935002 - 09/14/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Nothing like some locks and chains to keep you guys nice and cozy huh?
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead] 1
#26935154 - 09/14/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah man, nothing says freedom like 2 million dead Vietnamese civilians.Quote:
Shiithead said: Nothing like some locks and chains to keep you guys nice and cozy huh?
Yeah man, nothing says freedom like 2 million dead Vietnamese civilians.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
|
The war in Vietnam was in the name of freedom wasn't it?
What a great example of A Bright Shining Lie.
Quote:
spirit_shadow said: Fuck yeah it is.
How so?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26935196 - 09/14/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said: We have a lot more freedom than most of the world though.
You see this is a prime example of why I started this thread, and of what I've seen in three years living in the USA; this is exactly what they want you to believe in this country, when in reality, this country breeds people overall far less free than most of the world IMO. Here's why:
- If material freedom is how one ranks freedom in this life; then sure this place ranks in abundance.
- If emotional and spiritual freedom is how one ranks freedom in this life; then this place has people more trapped, enslaved and in bondage than just about any other place I have ever been.
So what is freedom anyway?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,201
Last seen: 1 hour, 19 minutes
|
|
Man this thread is gold.
This piece of stand up is worth a listen.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
|
I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to be emotionally and spiritually free here
--------------------
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
|
LOL.
Thanks for that man, that was awesome.
Quote:
Eminence said: I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to be emotionally and spiritually free here
I'm absolutely not surprised.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Eminence said: We have a lot more freedom than most of the world though.
You see this is a prime example of why I started this thread, and of what I've seen in three years living in the USA; this is exactly what they want you to believe in this country, when in reality, this country breeds people overall far less free than most of the world IMO. Here's why:
- If material freedom is how one ranks freedom in this life; then sure this place ranks in abundance.
- If emotional and spiritual freedom is how one ranks freedom in this life; then this place has people more trapped, enslaved and in bondage than just about any other place I have ever been.
So what is freedom anyway?
since the industrial revolution, modern society lives in a self-congratulatory myth. if you comprise part of your freedom, you compromise all of it. modern humans have created artificial struggles to keep themselves mindlessly busy and willfully enslaved.
Rabindranath Tagore has a poem on freedom of thought that he wrote in the days of India’s preindependence as a prayer for his country. i have always thought that it captures the spirit of freedom.
Quote:
Where the mind is without fear and the head held high; Where knowledge is free; Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls; Where words come out from the depth of truth; Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection; Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit; Where the mind is led forward by Thee into ever-widening thought and action; Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.
|
trees


Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 9,194
|
|
I think freedom is something most people dont have. I know millions of people who have freedom flags and eagles on their trucks but are balls deep in a POS mortgage and car payments with with 3 kids and a full time job working 6-7 days a week 12 hour days, they crushed their own freedom willingly
Im a serious nerd for my type if freedom, its to be attained and maintained. Its the type of freedom that lets me wake up whenever i want, choose what i want to do each day, consume whatever i want whenever i want, ride my bikes whenever i want, wherever i want, make my money whenever i want, make as little or as much as i feel like, money doesnt matter much because of the way i set my life up. Nobody can just have all that anywhere in the world. You have to work hard as fuck for a period of time but not even for that long if you avoid most of the worst and most common financial pitfalls in life, which if youre heathy, it is not that hard to attain your own version of freedom, probably almost anywhere in the world thats not a warzone.
--------------------
|
Kelazam
All



Registered: 05/18/17
Posts: 1,146
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26935286 - 09/14/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Ye but scientifically and fundamentally speaking.. free will does not and can not exist. It just doesn't work like that.
-------------------- .
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Kelazam]
#26935310 - 09/14/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Free will is a philosophical construct It can't be quantified because it just is. However, freedom can be quantified. I'd like to see everyone have their freedom maximized. Seems most disagree. I believe it stems from fear or ignorance.
Love wins guys.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26935330 - 09/14/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shiithead said: freedom can be quantified.
Please do.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26935335 - 09/14/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Alright then. I want to set off a nuke in the atmosphere over north america because I think it would look cool. Freedom. Maximum. I also want to create a sound system that will broadcast globally so I can bless the world with the music of our saviour, Mac Miller, 24 hours a day 7 days a week. It'll be so loud that everyone has to yell everything to eachother, everywhere, and have bass so fat that the word thicc gets redefined as a comparison to how many fatal heart arrythmias occur during Programs. Freedom. America. Also, I want to fuck an eagle on top of Donald Trump's corpse.
|
Kelazam
All



Registered: 05/18/17
Posts: 1,146
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead]
#26935343 - 09/14/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I agree with you for sure! Before I go on a psychedelic trip I always write down a couple questions for myself relating to my life and reality that I want insight on and I once wrote down "Am I free?" and during the trip I instantly knew that I was not and it made perfect sense. After the trip I googled the question and I saw a ton of articles and websites that also agree with me that free will does not exist and can not exist whatsoever. Everything is already predetermined and you have no control over what happens with it even though all of your senses and thoughts clearly say otherwise. When you go down to it though and analyze it you can see that everything has already happened in a sense and it's just a never ending cycle of infinite energy that is transforming and manifesting into what it is already and has been and will be.
-------------------- .
|
spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: The war in Vietnam was in the name of freedom wasn't it?
What a great example of A Bright Shining Lie.
Quote:
spirit_shadow said: Fuck yeah it is.
How so?
Spiritual freedom. Psychological freedom.
-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
|
Freedom of Mind. Like the freedom of a fully lucid dream. Is entirely achievable by those noble ones willing to live in true harmony & be at peace.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
|
Quote:
spirit_shadow said: Spiritual freedom. Psychological freedom.
Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Freedom of Mind.
See this is my idea of what freedom really is.
And, if that really is an agreed upon idea by many of what freedom is, then the nation that so frequently touts that it has more freedom than any other is the one which actually has some of the least.
It's all a very clever set up, IMO.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: The war in Vietnam was in the name of freedom wasn't it?
It was part of the war on communism, freedom was touted as the reason communism was a threat. That shortly lost favour after the Vietnam war so the war on drugs was invented not long later. The problem with that war is people weren't shooting back, so the war on terrorism was created which still goes on till this day.
All of these wars are wars on ideals. Unquantifiable targets that hide in the shadows, a great reason to shoot people with very expensive hardware. And anyone who doesn't buy into the fear or thinks it's wrong is either unpatriotic, a coward or one of those who needs liberating. By liberating I mean being shot/blown up with aforementioned expensive hardware.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
|
spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
spirit_shadow said: Spiritual freedom. Psychological freedom.
Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Freedom of Mind.
See this is my idea of what freedom really is.
And, if that really is an agreed upon idea by many of what freedom is, then the nation that so frequently touts that it has more freedom than any other is the one which actually has some of the least.
It's all a very clever set up, IMO.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Oh I agree.
-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
|
Sounds like you're just complaining about non existent problems. Nobody is keeping you from being spiritual and emotional and whatever the hell you're talking about. Unless you're talking about taking a bunch of drugs and calling it being spiritual.
--------------------
|
InfiniteDreams


Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 1,224
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
From the movie The Usual Suspects. Line delivered by Kevin Spacey.
Lots of America there, and I don't think the world doubts its existence.
|
spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence] 1
#26935911 - 09/14/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said: Sounds like you're just complaining about non existent problems. Nobody is keeping you from being spiritual and emotional and whatever the hell you're talking about. Unless you're talking about taking a bunch of drugs and calling it being spiritual.
I'm talking being at peace with yourself.
-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Kelazam]
#26935916 - 09/14/20 08:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kelazam said: I agree with you for sure! Before I go on a psychedelic trip I always write down a couple questions for myself relating to my life and reality that I want insight on and I once wrote down "Am I free?" and during the trip I instantly knew that I was not and it made perfect sense. After the trip I googled the question and I saw a ton of articles and websites that also agree with me that free will does not exist and can not exist whatsoever. Everything is already predetermined and you have no control over what happens with it even though all of your senses and thoughts clearly say otherwise. When you go down to it though and analyze it you can see that everything has already happened in a sense and it's just a never ending cycle of infinite energy that is transforming and manifesting into what it is already and has been and will be.

Please know only God is concerned with that. There's no point in thinking about it or else you'll punk yourself out and do nothing with your life. I know that way of thinking all too well...
Take my advice and do something with your hands and stay away from psychs until you get more experience. Being a teenager is rough.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Shiithead] 1
#26935927 - 09/14/20 09:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Sometimes all our aspirations want is to run away from us. You can chase them forever but the goalpost always rests on the horizon. Like a dog chasing it's tail. Somehow we manage to find meaning and enjoyment in it, for others it's just a source of frustration and something to be avoided. I think with something like free will, the best thing you can do is move on. There are lots of empowering and insightful questions to ask one's self but the far most important one anyone can have is that your time is valuable. If that's true and causality really is an immutable force then I can use that information and use it to expose myself to situations that manipulate my, more or less, fate. At which point it matters not if free will is effectual because I've paradoxically found a way to override the causal loop with my own desires.
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
I think there is a confusion between fatalism and determinism. Determinism I do believe is true, in that case there is no such thing as freedom in the Libertarian sense. There is cause and effect and if you know the causes and effects then you can maneuver things to benefit you sort of like lining up dominoes. Fatalism says that nothing can be changed and that's not what the free will people usually mean when they argue determinism.
Freedom is a nice word though. I like it. But the more I reflected on it the more I found it difficult to justify it's existence. I mean we are influenced by things we can perceive and things we can't. I can't really speak to spiritual freedom (mostly because I don't believe in the existence of any spiritual world or force or whatever the kids are calling it), but psychological freedom does not exist from what I see. I read up on plenty of experiments that show that we don't have to be aware of something for it to have an effect on us. That begs the question then about how can you be sure you are free? Can we be sure of anything at all? Most would say no, I kind of agree. I mean you can sure as hell feel like you're free, but that doesn't really mean much. It's like the Phantom Limb syndrome, just because you feel it doesn't make it real. Tack on top of all that the knowledge that there are questions that have no answer and one has to wonder what freedom is left to us, if any at all?
So them we end up with life as a movie, or close. Just enjoy the ride and don't worry about whether or not you're free. Cuz in the end you can never truly know.
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26936093 - 09/14/20 10:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said: Nobody is keeping you from being spiritual and emotional and whatever the hell you're talking about.
I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the people I meet here.
Truly, all the most 'trapped' (not free in their thinking/habits/ways) people I've ever met have been in this country.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
They seem pretty nice to me, but then again most people are.
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
|
I think a lot of people are dumbed down by internet obsession and excessive consumerism. I also feel there's a distinct lack of culture in this country. The bit of culture we do have is also directly tied to excessive consumerism lol.
--------------------
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: poofdargon]
#26936200 - 09/15/20 12:22 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
poofdargon said: They seem pretty nice to me, but then again most people are.
Yeah, being nice is easy, it's not very noteworthy. Being real with people is more important I think, whether it entails being nice or not. I don't think he was saying anything about Americans being mean or something though. Unless I missed that part.
--------------------
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,232
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26936214 - 09/15/20 12:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said: I think a lot of people are dumbed down by internet obsession and excessive consumerism. I also feel there's a distinct lack of culture in this country. The bit of culture we do have is also directly tied to excessive consumerism lol.
Hang out with educated, cultured people. Plenty of culture here, local culture, state culture, regional culture and USA culture... It's everywhere if you just look. I thik you're looking for a different type of culture though.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Ice9]
#26936218 - 09/15/20 12:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
So is this what you're going to do from now on..keep making butthurt comments about something I already stopped talking about in another thread, whenever you see me around? Put me on ignore and be done with it. I'm not doing this here.
--------------------
|
Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26936275 - 09/15/20 01:56 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said: They don't like Jesus though.
First of all, Jesus was Jewish. But whatever.
What would be more accurate would be to say that Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. That's not the same as disliking someone. I love my friends, and none of them are the messiah.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,232
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence]
#26936279 - 09/15/20 02:06 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Eminence said:
So is this what you're going to do from now on..keep making butthurt comments about something I already stopped talking about in another thread, whenever you see me around? Put me on ignore and be done with it. I'm not doing this here. 
You said you lacked culture in you life, I prided on means of finding it. Ad Hominems like butthurt won't get a rise from me if that's what your after.
If you unwilling to listen to reasonable suggestions I will stop making them.
Also, the post I quoted you made literally two post preceding my quote in this thread as anyone can see unless you edit it like a coward.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
Loc: FNQ
Last seen: 27 minutes, 47 seconds
|
|
Quote:
Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:
Eminence said: They don't like Jesus though.
First of all, Jesus was Jewish. But whatever. .
Well actually, Jesus is a fable.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
|
Eminence



Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Ice9]
#26936308 - 09/15/20 02:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
They're still there, as you can see. Done now?
--------------------
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Eminence] 1
#26936381 - 09/15/20 05:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
People are very convinced the world is real. And that there is a brain in their skull. Once you see your thoughts are the only thing that really exists freedom will take on a new meaning. Though its worth it to put energy into fixing society. One's own perspective is the true lack or not of freedom.
--------------------
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: bodhisatta]
#26936610 - 09/15/20 08:59 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bodhisatta said: People are very convinced the world is real. And that there is a brain in their skull. Once you see your thoughts are the only thing that really exists freedom will take on a new meaning. Though its worth it to put energy into fixing society. One's own perspective is the true lack or not of freedom.
Well the world is “real” as far as I can tell but thoughts don’t exist, or not in the way people think they do. They’re just electrical impulses in your brain, which we do have evidence for existing.
I did read somewhere that you can’t be certain that anything truly exists even your own thoughts .
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: poofdargon]
#26936621 - 09/15/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Outer & inner world (even thoughts) - They are neither exactly here nor not here. Seemingly All phenomena marked by being Absent but apparent. Seemingly Nonexistent yet perceptible. That’s why in some religions & some scientists say all is like an illusion or dream. Not literally those things, but like them.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
I haven’t heard of any scientist say that all is like an illusion or dream. What I do know they say is that the world constructed by our brains as a best guess of what is out there based on the senses. I’m not sure what would make someone say brains aren’t real though.
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: poofdargon]
#26936645 - 09/15/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Do some research on interface theory, interesting stuff.
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: feevers]
#26936662 - 09/15/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I actually looked into the guy who started that, it turned out to be a bunk theory totally unsupported by evidence. What he gets right isn’t new, that reality is an approximation of what our brain thinks is out there. Alas, that’s about all he gets right. What he derives from that point however isn’t exactly true though and seems more like leaps of judgment to me. Evolution may favor fitness but that doesn’t mean there isn’t truth in observations or that we don’t see pieces of some objective reality.
He also makes the same mistake anyone does in suggesting that consciousness is the primary root of reality, mostly the circular logic that results from it. You still end up with the problem of what causes consciousness, which in this case we have evidence to suggest it’s the brain.
That’s just a few of the many problems with his theory, it’s less science and more philosophy. Actually it’s already been proposed in the past. They called it Idealism. The idea is more like a new coat of paint on age old arguments.
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
Edited by poofdargon (09/15/20 09:39 AM)
|
larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: poofdargon]
#26936682 - 09/15/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Consciousness as a harnessed signal and the brain as a reciever. I'm not sure what is circular about that. People could argue that we can't prove or disprove the existence of non-corporeal consciousness, but at the same time there's also been people saying for a long time that we can. Religion, shamanism, even the idea that there is multi-dimensionality with fundamentally different variables. Observability in quantum mechanics. Dreams, if consciousness is a "signal" of a kind, or ether, then dreams themselves are evidence that consciousness expands outside the physical.
|
tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
|
|
Over the years, his criminal empire flourishes, as does his legend. Remarking on Söze's mythical nature, Kint says, "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist", a line borrowed from Charles Baudelaire.
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
Observation in quantum mechanics has nothing to do with consciousness, despite the term being used. I had to learn that what physicists mean by observation isn’t what we mean by it. Dreams don’t really prove it either from what I’ve read since some drugs can induce a dreamless sleep (as I’ve had).
You are still making an assertion that consciousness is a signal of some sort but then you run into the problem of what is broadcasting the signal. How do you know the brain is a receiver and not a producer? How does the brain receive it if it is a signal? It seems like you just add another layer to it without evidence. The brain producing consciousness seems simpler to me and there is evidence to back it. Though then one runs into the problem of how though, which isn’t known.
Personally I wouldn’t use religion or shamanism as evidence of anything.
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
Calm_A_Llama_Down
Deep down in the ocean blue



Registered: 05/09/14
Posts: 1,287
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: poofdargon]
#26936722 - 09/15/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Freedom only exists on the individual level. There is no such thing as corporate or religious freedom, because what groups do to individuals is inherently oppression. There are no states rights or fedral rights, there are only the rights of the individual. Only individual people are capable of processing and experiencing freedom.
-------------------- "You will laugh at your fears when you find out who you really are." --Piccolo
 
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
Well I would argue that individual people can believe or feel they are free. Doesn’t make it so though.
I forgot to add my “so what?” Like to the Hoffman argument. I mean if the guy is writing a book to tell others reality isn’t real and you and I don’t exist then my next question is “so what?”
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
Crazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!


Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 13,283
Loc: Hampsterdam
|
|
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose.
--------------------
|
tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
|
|
Nothin', don't mean nothin' hon' if it ain't free, no no
|
Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: Northerner]
#26936813 - 09/15/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Northerner said: Well actually, Jesus is a fable.
In all likelihood, yes.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
|
larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
|
Re: The illusion of freedom [Re: poofdargon]
#26937013 - 09/15/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
poofdargon said: Observation in quantum mechanics has nothing to do with consciousness, despite the term being used. I had to learn that what physicists mean by observation isn’t what we mean by it. Dreams don’t really prove it either from what I’ve read since some drugs can induce a dreamless sleep (as I’ve had).
You are still making an assertion that consciousness is a signal of some sort but then you run into the problem of what is broadcasting the signal. How do you know the brain is a receiver and not a producer? How does the brain receive it if it is a signal? It seems like you just add another layer to it without evidence. The brain producing consciousness seems simpler to me and there is evidence to back it. Though then one runs into the problem of how though, which isn’t known.
Personally I wouldn’t use religion or shamanism as evidence of anything.
You're the one making assertions and leaps, dude. What I mean is, things can exist in various states even if it's on a micro micro micro scale. You're welcome to measure consciousness for me. How can you tell me dreams don't prove it when you reject my reasonings for saying it in the first place? If this, then perhaps this. "Yeah well you're wrong because.." I don't know how to have a conversation when I'm trying to philosophically debate and have ideas when your response is to just tell me I'm wrong while simultaneously destroying whatever opinion you have.
Please tell me how the brain makes consciousness. You admit your version has problems but you assert the same question as if it's a point of contention. The signal is god. The signal is the ether. It is the pervasive energy field which every thing is a part of. That is not an issue for me. That is an issue for you. You say I add layers without evidence but your points are kind of baseless of their own. Telling me something simpler to you is not debate.
Lastly you simply reject the idea that people's experiences are worth something. I mean we're having a conversation about non-corporeal consciousness. god, gods, or simply multi-dimensional entities existing as mere consciousness. A great many of the world's smartest minds have been on that boat so I can't say I feel bad for thinking outside the box you'd constrain us to. The only thing you've accomplished here is basically having nothing to refute me with while patting yourself on the back. Excuse me while I go find the world's largest hand
|
Svetaketu
The Devil's Avocado 🥑


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,508
Loc: United States
Last seen: 1 day, 10 hours
|
|
So do all animal brains work as receivers? Or just humans?
Your going to tell me there's something producing the signal of my cats consciousness which is received by its cat brain making it act like a cat?
What about a fly? Is its consciousness simple enough to be localized?
How conscious does something need to be to warrant the belief that an outside influence is creating its consiousness?
And you don't see how that's more convoluted and full of assertions than just; the brain creates the perception of consciousness?
-------------------- LAGM2020 LAGM2021
|
Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
|
I feel like this thread is about to get moved to the philosophy sub-forum lol.
Here's my own contribution to the discussion: just a way of framing the debate.
When it comes to free will there are a few terms that might be useful for discussion, none of which require you to define what free will is:
- Determinism - the belief that all events are caused by previous events.
- Compatibilism - the belief that the existence of free will is logically consistent with determinism.
- Incompatibilisim - The belief that the existence of free will is not logically consistent with determinism (i.e., if one is true, the other is false)
Defining the competing position to determinism isn't exactly straightforward, as it's not quite clear whether non-determinism means pure randomness and chaos or a mixture of events caused by previous events and events which have no previous cause.
Philosophically, you can either accept or reject determinism, and philosophers still haven't come to an agreement over whether or not determinism is true (though, most contemporary philosophers seem to accept determinism as true). If you reject determinism, then I think it's pretty easy to make some sort of argument in favor of free will. Without determinism, you can just define a free action as an event caused by a conscious actor's will, which has no prior cause.
If you accept determinism as true, then you can either take the compatibilist or incompatibilist position, and this is where much of the contemporary debate over the topic of free will takes place. There are many arguments for and against either of these positions, and it's a pretty fascinating topic to look into.
Ultimately, I don't know where I stand with all of this, but if I was pressed to pick a position instead of fence-riding, I'd probably just say that I'm an incompatibilist. I believe in determinism (though I'm not certain of that belief), and I believe that the concept of free will is incompatible with determinism. If there is any doubt to be cast over my belief here, it would be over the concept of determinism itself. Whether or not determinism is true depends on how you define an event, and how you define what it means for one event to cause another. I think the concept of distinct events isn't obvious from a philosophical standpoint. It could be that, in reality, there aren't distinct events: only one large event. I don't see any reason that this conception of reality would be obviously false, so that's enough for me to at least question whether or not determinism is true.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
larry.fisherman said:
Quote:
poofdargon said: Observation in quantum mechanics has nothing to do with consciousness, despite the term being used. I had to learn that what physicists mean by observation isn’t what we mean by it. Dreams don’t really prove it either from what I’ve read since some drugs can induce a dreamless sleep (as I’ve had).
You are still making an assertion that consciousness is a signal of some sort but then you run into the problem of what is broadcasting the signal. How do you know the brain is a receiver and not a producer? How does the brain receive it if it is a signal? It seems like you just add another layer to it without evidence. The brain producing consciousness seems simpler to me and there is evidence to back it. Though then one runs into the problem of how though, which isn’t known.
Personally I wouldn’t use religion or shamanism as evidence of anything.
You're the one making assertions and leaps, dude. What I mean is, things can exist in various states even if it's on a micro micro micro scale. You're welcome to measure consciousness for me. How can you tell me dreams don't prove it when you reject my reasonings for saying it in the first place? If this, then perhaps this. "Yeah well you're wrong because.." I don't know how to have a conversation when I'm trying to philosophically debate and have ideas when your response is to just tell me I'm wrong while simultaneously destroying whatever opinion you have.
Please tell me how the brain makes consciousness. You admit your version has problems but you assert the same question as if it's a point of contention. The signal is god. The signal is the ether. It is the pervasive energy field which every thing is a part of. That is not an issue for me. That is an issue for you. You say I add layers without evidence but your points are kind of baseless of their own. Telling me something simpler to you is not debate.
Lastly you simply reject the idea that people's experiences are worth something. I mean we're having a conversation about non-corporeal consciousness. god, gods, or simply multi-dimensional entities existing as mere consciousness. A great many of the world's smartest minds have been on that boat so I can't say I feel bad for thinking outside the box you'd constrain us to. The only thing you've accomplished here is basically having nothing to refute me with while patting yourself on the back. Excuse me while I go find the world's largest hand
My position is I don't really know. But I know that some views are more grounded in evidence, such as the case that the brain produces consciousness. It's not clear how, but there is a wealth of evidence to suggest it does so I'm going with that.
However I will say that you are inventing extra entities to hold your theory together, which to me violates Occam's Razor. You mention God, ether (or aether by some mentions), but these have no evidence for their existence. As far as I know there is no energy field around everything (unless you count some degree of magnetism or electric fields that all living animals emit, which allows some predators to detect them).
Quote:
Lastly you simply reject the idea that people's experiences are worth something. I mean we're having a conversation about non-corporeal consciousness. god, gods, or simply multi-dimensional entities existing as mere consciousness. A great many of the world's smartest minds have been on that boat so I can't say I feel bad for thinking outside the box you'd constrain us to. The only thing you've accomplished here is basically having nothing to refute me with while patting yourself on the back. Excuse me while I go find the world's largest hand
Which minds exactly? Certainly not neuroscience, or quantum physics (in the early days many said that but then later on retracted their statements). I don't outright reject it, I just don't count it as evidence for the nature of reality. Knowing how flawed our feelings, sensations, etc are is why anecdotes don't mean much. Just because you had en experience doesn't meaning anything other than you had that experience. It could be X, Y or Z. Maybe not even that. That problem I've had is people trying to assign value to such experiences and to make them be something more than what they are.
I go where the evidence leads me, I don't form opinions. I know that I can't really argue with personal experience but not because it's right but because it's powerful. From what I have gathered and learned there is no reason to believe in non corporeal consciousness or gods of any form or shape or conception. I'm pointing out that there doesn't appear to be evidence to warrant your belief. I don't need to refute something that doesn't have evidence for itself.
Going against the grain doesn't necessarily mean you're thinking outside the box, a lesson I learned the hard way. Based on the evidence there is nothing to suggest consciousness exists apart from the body.
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
poofdargon
Stranger


Registered: 08/06/20
Posts: 57
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
I think the larger mistake is when people equate determinism with fatalism.
-------------------- You think yourself immune to madness? Are you certain it has yet to take hold? I'm gonna be the greatest music star in all of Riboflavin. -Grup
|
|