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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26930557 - 09/11/20 06:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Would you kindly explain to me what parts of my post are (a) illegal or (b) a line that Trump would not cross?

Please follow that up with examples of (a) Trump/GOP bootlickers following the laws that are enforced against them and (b) Trump not crossing a line.




I'm not going down your rabbit hole of hypothetical scenarios regarding the election and I don't need to provide you examples of anything regarding the idiots following Trump to disprove your paranoid election thesis.

There's lines Trump won't cross on a daily basis, so let's not pretend he doesn't have some boundaries regarding his political conduct. You're speculating based on the personal hatred of Trump instead of critical thinking skills in this case in my opinion.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: qman]
    #26930606 - 09/11/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Would you kindly explain to me what parts of my post are (a) illegal or (b) a line that Trump would not cross?

Please follow that up with examples of (a) Trump/GOP bootlickers following the laws that are enforced against them and (b) Trump not crossing a line.




I'm not going down your rabbit hole of hypothetical scenarios regarding the election and I don't need to provide you examples of anything regarding the idiots following Trump to disprove your paranoid election thesis.

There's lines Trump won't cross on a daily basis, so let's not pretend he doesn't have some boundaries regarding his political conduct. You're speculating based on the personal hatred of Trump instead of critical thinking skills in this case in my opinion.




Perhaps you should provide an example of such boundaries.

Thing is, my scenario is a hypothetical, I agree. It is a hypothetical because while perfectly legal, to my knowledge no president has ever gone down the road of my hypothetical, to the end result of authoritarian rule.

Of course, up until now, no president has ever...accepted election help from a foreign power. Under the (republican controlled) senate's help, we now know that the current president has done so.

Until now, no president has had...rape accusations from 13 year old girls. Until now, that is.

Until now, no president has...repeatedly used their office for personal gain...but now we know that not only did the president's son steal from a children's cancer charity, the president himself has stolen from a 9/11 charity for first responders.

The sad thing is, I don't hate Trump. I really don't. If I was broke, in debt to multiple foreign actors, and somehow president of the United States, I would do exactly what Trump did. From a pure business standpoint, given a blank check by senate republicans, I would do exactly what Trump is doing. I would do my best to pump every last dollar out of your sorry ass until you begged me to stop, and then I'd go ahead and pump that last dollar keeping you alive. Same way I did to my old boss. Sucks for my old analytical lab. They folded back in march.

This is a moment of game recognizes game. Except for you.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26930919 - 09/11/20 10:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Of course, up until now, no president has ever...accepted election help from a foreign power. Under the (republican controlled) senate's help, we now know that the current president has done so.



What election help did Trump 'accept'?

Shouldn't you be alerting the Mueller team?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26930955 - 09/11/20 10:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I heard your argument, and I still disagree this will happen, which is why I offered a signature bet that you chickened out on.




I know I'm not directly involved here, but I'd just like to point out that whether or not Kryptos' refusal to participate in your bet absolutely does not indicate that his argument is weak. If anything, your proposal of the bet (and your insistence on further discussion of it) makes me think that you value "being right" more than you value personal growth, and I'm definitely not the first member of this forum to come to that conclusion from reading your posts. Let it go.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26931005 - 09/12/20 12:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I know I'm not directly involved here, but I'd just like to point out that whether or not Kryptos' refusal to participate in your bet absolutely does not indicate that his argument is weak. If anything, your proposal of the bet (and your insistence on further discussion of it) makes me think that you value "being right" more than you value personal growth



I do appreciate your input, especially since I think you're a great poster here.  :thumbup:  Feel free to chime in any time with advice.  :toast:

With that said, I'm hoping you can clarify two things about your comment:

1.  What kind of "personal growth" do I lose out on by making a bet?  Especially if I lose, because then I think I'd grow for sure.
2.  Do you really think Trump will keep himself in power even if he loses the election?  I thought it was a highly unlikely statement.

Or maybe I totally missed your points?  If so I apologize and hope you will clarify for me.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OnlineBrian Jones
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: ohsnaps]
    #26931060 - 09/12/20 12:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ohsnaps said:
Don't be complacent yet. Trump isn't going down without a fight.




It doesn't make any difference if he wants to fight or not. It's over. He's going to lose nearly every battle ground state, and probably some that were supposed to be Republican. Biden has nothing to recommend him,  but he's doing the exact right thing by doing and saying as little as possible.

Meanwhile Trump is having a public idiocracy fest every single day. His friends (former friends) and his party are as much against him as the Democrats.

If you disagree PM me for a small friendly wager. If I lose, I will pay everybody within 24 hours.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OnlineBrian Jones
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: christopera]
    #26931065 - 09/12/20 01:04 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
You didn't need to mention that you are Libertarian at all. It adds literally nothing to your point.

edit: beside, we all know that on the National level Libertarians are just rebranded Republicans. Without Republican support, Libertarians wouldn't exist at all.




It's the strangest thing. In the 70's Libertarians were cool. Now they seem to accept Ayn Rand as their personal savior.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26932540 - 09/12/20 09:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)



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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos]
    #26932578 - 09/12/20 09:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Fake news, Trump is clearly joking.


--------------------
I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos]
    #26932783 - 09/13/20 02:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Your assessment was that Trump would steel the election.  Roger Stone's assessment is that Trump shouldn't allow the election to be stolen.  It's interesting since the US election system is so full of problems (look at the Democratic primaries this year, among other things) that it'd be difficult to know which side was cheating.

The actual interview that the Guardian writes about is here (watch 5 min from 1:09:25 - 1:14:24):



Better to listen to the interview than read about it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26933075 - 09/13/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Prevent the "stealing" of an election by...stealing the election.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26933199 - 09/13/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Would you kindly explain to me what parts of my post are (a) illegal or (b) a line that Trump would not cross?

Please follow that up with examples of (a) Trump/GOP bootlickers following the laws that are enforced against them and (b) Trump not crossing a line.




I'm not going down your rabbit hole of hypothetical scenarios regarding the election and I don't need to provide you examples of anything regarding the idiots following Trump to disprove your paranoid election thesis.

There's lines Trump won't cross on a daily basis, so let's not pretend he doesn't have some boundaries regarding his political conduct. You're speculating based on the personal hatred of Trump instead of critical thinking skills in this case in my opinion.




Perhaps you should provide an example of such boundaries.

Thing is, my scenario is a hypothetical, I agree. It is a hypothetical because while perfectly legal, to my knowledge no president has ever gone down the road of my hypothetical, to the end result of authoritarian rule.

Of course, up until now, no president has ever...accepted election help from a foreign power. Under the (republican controlled) senate's help, we now know that the current president has done so.

Until now, no president has had...rape accusations from 13 year old girls. Until now, that is.

Until now, no president has...repeatedly used their office for personal gain...but now we know that not only did the president's son steal from a children's cancer charity, the president himself has stolen from a 9/11 charity for first responders.

The sad thing is, I don't hate Trump. I really don't. If I was broke, in debt to multiple foreign actors, and somehow president of the United States, I would do exactly what Trump did. From a pure business standpoint, given a blank check by senate republicans, I would do exactly what Trump is doing. I would do my best to pump every last dollar out of your sorry ass until you begged me to stop, and then I'd go ahead and pump that last dollar keeping you alive. Same way I did to my old boss. Sucks for my old analytical lab. They folded back in march.

This is a moment of game recognizes game. Except for you.



Trump accepted election help from a foreign power?  I'm unaware of that situation.

Either way, your reasoning is still fallacious in nature. Even IF Trump did everything you mentioned, that does NOT mean he's even likely to do the things involving the election that you were speculating about in the other post. :shrug:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos]
    #26933323 - 09/13/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Prevent the "stealing" of an election by...stealing the election.



No.  That's like saying if I steel a tv from a department store, and security takes it back from me, security is stealing the tv from me.

Again, I have no idea how Trump is going to prove election fraud (Roger Stone proposed seizing Nevada's results so they could be properly counted).  I'm just clarifying what the Guardian article omitted.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26933361 - 09/13/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
1.  What kind of "personal growth" do I lose out on by making a bet?  Especially if I lose, because then I think I'd grow for sure.




It's not that making a bet with someone about who's right is diametrically opposed to personal growth or anything like that. My claim was just that your proposal of such a bet is evidence of how much you value being right, and being right doesn't always facilitate growth.

I don't want to debate this topic, really. If you really are insistent on defending your bet-making, then that's fine. It's really not that important to me whether you do it or not, so you don't have to justify your actions to me.

Quote:

Eminence said:
2.  Do you really think Trump will keep himself in power even if he loses the election?  I thought it was a highly unlikely statement.




I don't know whether he will or not. I think that the hypothetical situation Kryptos outlined seems possible within the realm of our current system, but only time will tell whether it actually unfolds that way or not. I can't speak about how likely it is (especially since this is the most unpredictable president we've ever had), but I think it's worth bracing ourselves for some kind of resistance should he lose the electoral college.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 1
    #26933390 - 09/13/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
It's not that making a bet with someone about who's right is diametrically opposed to personal growth or anything like that. My claim was just that your proposal of such a bet is evidence of how much you value being right, and being right doesn't always facilitate growth.

I don't want to debate this topic, really. If you really are insistent on defending your bet-making, then that's fine. It's really not that important to me whether you do it or not, so you don't have to justify your actions to me.



Ok, thanks for the response.  I personally don't think it's an either/or proposal.  I think it's possible to enjoy making bets and personal growth at the same time.

Quote:

Eminence said:
I don't know whether he will or not. I think that the hypothetical situation Kryptos outlined seems possible within the realm of our current system, but only time will tell whether it actually unfolds that way or not. I can't speak about how likely it is (especially since this is the most unpredictable president we've ever had), but I think it's worth bracing ourselves for some kind of resistance should he lose the electoral college.



Of course nobody knows with 100% certainty.  Some conservatives here were saying Obama was going to keep himself in office for a 3rd term.  I called it crazy talk, just like I'm calling this crazy talk.  Was it possible?  Yes.  Likely?  No.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26933421 - 09/13/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Your bets are, whether you realize it or not, a tactic that shuts down further discussion. I suspect that you do realize this, and use your bets for that purpose.

The "fight me, bro" analogy is exactly the same thing. You're forcing a final confrontation to decide a topic, and any further discussion can be avoided by simply pointing out that a challenge was issued, a bet was made, and there is nothing left to do but wait for the outcome.

Obama staying in office for a third term was unlikely, because Obama did not repeatedly claim he'd do it, Obama supporters did not want to set up an Obama dynasty, and Obama did not publicly claim that him losing an election would be illegitimate by definition. Trump has done all of those things.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos]
    #26933459 - 09/13/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

CNN is now spewing the same BS story about Trump and what he's going to do with the election.



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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: qman]
    #26933487 - 09/13/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Well, yeah. It's not a wargame scenario that was played out behind closed doors anymore.

Now one of the leading republican strategists is openly announcing it.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Kryptos]
    #26933499 - 09/13/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Your bets are, whether you realize it or not, a tactic that shuts down further discussion. I suspect that you do realize this, and use your bets for that purpose.

The "fight me, bro" analogy is exactly the same thing. You're forcing a final confrontation to decide a topic, and any further discussion can be avoided by simply pointing out that a challenge was issued, a bet was made, and there is nothing left to do but wait for the outcome.



The only discussion it should shut down is "nuh uh, uh huh, nuh uh, uh huh" type discussions.  I think bets make other discussions, like the one qman just posted, more interesting.  But you can disagree with me on this.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Obama staying in office for a third term was unlikely, because Obama did not repeatedly claim he'd do it, Obama supporters did not want to set up an Obama dynasty, and Obama did not publicly claim that him losing an election would be illegitimate by definition. Trump has done all of those things.



That's a misrepresentation of what we're seeing though.  Trump isn't saying he'll want to keep the Presidency if he loses.  He's saying he'll want to keep it gets stolen.

Again, America's election system is so bad, I have no idea how either side would prove their point.  Americans just have to accept the results they are given.  But the fact the establishment politicians fight against a more transparent system worries me a lot.  Why won't they just fix our broken system?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Trump suggests people should commit voter fraud [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26933543 - 09/13/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Trump has, multiple times, refused to state that he would accept the results of an election. To the best of my knowledge, he has yet to openly accept the results of the 2016 election.

The minor fig leaf of "stolen" elections is not convincing, because there is no evidence that a US election has ever been stolen, with the possible exception of Bush v Gore, which was decided by the supreme court of the US, and not the supreme court of Florida, because republicans thought there were less democrats in SCOTUS at the time.

Yes, it is interesting that republicans not only refuse to fix the broken system under which they have won only one popular vote in the last 30 years, but actively block such reforms with cries of "unconstitutional" and "treason".


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