|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
|
Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself 2
#26933413 - 09/13/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
This is a thing that occurred to me (or an idea I received - it's often hard to know/remember the difference) in my early twenties when I was fairly obsessed with psychedelics.
I remember people on the Shroomery debating Terence McKenna's theories and whether they had any validity, and at the time I was quite interested in McKenna. I think I was coming to the conclusion that his theories were probably inaccurate, but that I enjoyed listening to him because his wild ideas, personal narratives, and perspectives on modern life were his way of metaphoring or figuratively sharing his inner experience with listeners/readers. In other words, I enjoyed being in that headspace - his headspace - to the extent that he could bring me into it with words. I liked dwelling in his world of psychedelic mysteries.
Around the same time I was involved in another literary forum, and I remember someone writing an impassioned piece about how the omnipotent deity character was the least interesting character in a particular work of fiction, because he just set everything in motion but didn't actually do anything to advance the plot, didn't have any discernible traits of interest or a character arc. I had seen this person post about his atheism before and I thought, this person isn't really writing about this particular work of fiction, he's metaphoring to us, his fellow forum posters, his own feelings and convictions on metaphysics.
I think this is something that's useful to reflect on: people's writing and speech is a way of conveying their inner landscape. They're usually describing how they are and how things are for them just as much as they are making an argument, describing a recent occurrence, recounting the plot of a TV series they like or anything else. They'll emphasize different details, elevate different strands of logic, and react with different levels of emotional intensity according to the state of their inner body-mind and their level of consciousness of what it's doing.
Even the most blandly-written academic paper, taking every painstaking measure to ensure objectivity, reflects something about the body-mind of its writer and their understanding of themselves and, by extension, the world.
That doesn't mean we should just accept erroneous or absurd arguments for things, especially if accepting them would mean accepting a worldview that we might rightly view as dangerously misguided - but it maybe gives a little leeway not to go on the attack when we see people approaching a subject in a radically different way than we would approach it. What do you think?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: Lion] 2
#26933463 - 09/13/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Lion said: ....this person isn't really writing about this particular work of fiction, he's metaphoring to us, his fellow forum posters, his own feelings and convictions on metaphysics.
I think this is something that's useful to reflect on: people's writing and speech is a way of conveying their inner landscape. They're usually describing how they are and how things are for them just as much as they are making an argument, ....
If you go to a therapist they should definitely be aware of this aspect.
If you are doing science you should be responsible for being accurate.
On internet forums, I suspect, other factors are also at work. What the person had for breakfast, whether they just argued with their wife, and on some forums what they are high on, their level of intelligence, and other details of their psychology and motivation. All of these factors often make argument pointless.
Add to that, that sometimes rigid, or religious beliefs, or simply a very competitive nature may be at work, and argument becomes even more pointless. In fact it would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends and have a commitment to learning.
To simply air ideas and be curious about reactions, is often enough for me. It is also well to realize that on the internet, people come and go, and perhaps only will post a couple times before becoming bored with the topic or distracted. Additionally misunderstandings and erroneous assumptions abound.
Therefore when I do not (or someone else does not) reply, it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" is considered right.
As a result I often wonder about my own motivations for posting! !
Perhaps the world would be nicer if more took your approach of realizing: " They're usually describing how they are and how things are for them"?
Then again a fair amount of time, threads in this forum, simply wander off topic, and folks enjoy a bit of harmless back and forth about nothing in particular; perhaps a bit like a game of Pooh sticks.
Edited by laughingdog (09/13/20 01:41 PM)
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,248
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: laughingdog] 2
#26933577 - 09/13/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I think going on the attack is also a reflection of one's inner world. All actions and reactions are reflective of ourselves. I try not to convey anger in my replies, but when there is disagreement there's going to be some friction. The choice is to either "shut up" or do one's best to engage the subject without making it overly personal.
The absence of communication is okay when people don't have to live with each other. To some extent that is still true of this world, and to some extent it has never been true. Communication, even poor communication, results (eventually, hopefully) in better communication skills.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: Rahz] 1
#26933664 - 09/13/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
well, it's all true.
however, if a person is talking to you or at you they are in one way demanding attention.
attention is a commodity that people need to be fair about.
Sure when I listen or read I am getting the point, maybe, but also I am getting the mode, mood, mindset of the delivery; and reacting to that as well as to what I feel may be fair or unfair use of others' attention.
I want to be somewhat compassionate, but I don't like being abused either by being expected to stop what I am up to and interpret what is happening in the dialog that has landed on my plate.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,248
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: redgreenvines] 2
#26933710 - 09/13/20 04:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I don't like people justifying their logical fallacies. 
I'm also not sure it's right to say that a reply is a demanding of attention. That makes it seem that communication is inherently coercive.
I think often a person doesn't want to engage, but also can't let it go. This is not the fault of the other person, but rather metaphorically conveying one's understanding of one's self perhaps?
The absence of friction is appealing, but the reality is that we choose to debate, when we do. Kinda like the old sheepdog vs wolf cartoon, I don't think it's necessary to hold bad feelings about such exchanges.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,369
Last seen: 1 hour, 59 minutes
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: laughingdog] 1
#26933803 - 09/13/20 05:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said:
If you are doing science you should be responsible for being accurate.
False. Scientific method follows a determined protocol that can change. Accuracy of the theory is forever up to interpretation.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: Rahz]
#26933893 - 09/13/20 05:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: I don't like people justifying their logical fallacies. 
I'm also not sure it's right to say that a reply is a demanding of attention. That makes it seem that communication is inherently coercive.
I think often a person doesn't want to engage, but also can't let it go. This is not the fault of the other person, but rather metaphorically conveying one's understanding of one's self perhaps?
The absence of friction is appealing, but the reality is that we choose to debate, when we do. Kinda like the old sheepdog vs wolf cartoon, I don't think it's necessary to hold bad feelings about such exchanges.
I did not say you were demanding of attention. more, when I try to type something my wife starts talking about anything, and I stop and listen...
it's great, just gggreat.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,369
Last seen: 1 hour, 59 minutes
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: redgreenvines]
#26933904 - 09/13/20 05:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
She's probably praising my prowess. I know you hate that.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,248
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: redgreenvines]
#26933974 - 09/13/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I did not say you were demanding of attention. more, when I try to type something my wife starts talking about anything, and I stop and listen...
it's great, just gggreat.
Ahh, well yes there is only one good choice in such situations.
Hopefully the trade off is that you have someone who cares about you and will also listen.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26934002 - 09/13/20 06:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Buster_Brown said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
If you are doing science you should be responsible for being accurate.
False. Scientific method follows a determined protocol that can change. Accuracy of the theory is forever up to interpretation.
. It is because of replies, at this level, that much discussion, let alone argument, is pointless. If one were writing an essay or book, it might be worth, paragraphs of clarification, for those who fail to intuitively grasp the original intent; but like explaining a joke in real life, explaining such stuff on the net just isn't worth the effort. Especially when the original intent was fairly obvious to most, the whole matter is of no great consequence, and trolling behavior or oppositional behavior for its own sake, frequently pops up. Taking things out of context is often a hint. IMO
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,732
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: laughingdog]
#26934054 - 09/13/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
My sentiments exactly.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,248
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: laughingdog]
#26934073 - 09/13/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Each to his own. I have no interest in mosh pits personally. Also, sometimes misunderstandings could be seen as willful ignorance of context.
Anyway...
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,369
Last seen: 1 hour, 59 minutes
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: laughingdog]
#26934493 - 09/14/20 03:56 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
It is because of replies, at this level, that much discussion, let alone argument, is pointless.
As an indication of your own self-worth in the context of the topic of "conveying your understanding of yourself" one may deduce that you feel under-appreciated.
Edited by Buster_Brown (09/14/20 04:26 AM)
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26934572 - 09/14/20 05:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
things being taken out of context is probably why I do not understand very much about quantum mechanics except in terms of chain reactions at astronomical scale. Quantum Computing - for instance - I can't see how it has anything to do with entanglement or computing.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 3 days, 9 hours
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: Lion]
#26934747 - 09/14/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
"Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves."
--The Dutchess
|
Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26934815 - 09/14/20 09:42 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
A sub forum on The Shroomery is the only place to express the depths of one's character and understanding regarding a selected topic. Failure to comply and meet demand will result unfavorably for the one who shies away.
In all seriousness it boils down to choice. "The problem is choice, Neo". Some get in a muse and go with it or maybe they don't. There have been great debates and discussions all that is needed is to search the history. A little bit of everything. Whatever.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: Rahz]
#26937903 - 09/15/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: Each to his own. I have no interest in mosh pits personally. Also, sometimes misunderstandings could be seen as willful ignorance of context.
Anyway...
perhaps mosh pits are the human equivalent of whale behavior, but of course without real fulfillment for anyone?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=whales+mating
|
RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,030
Loc: USA
Last seen: 9 hours, 56 minutes
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: laughingdog]
#26939439 - 09/16/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said:
As a result I often wonder about my own motivations for posting! !
I ponder that occasionally.
One part of me thinks debating (especially online) is as silly as people marching on the street with messages written on cardboard. Protest signs are simply reflections of their makers. Just like posts on a forum.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#26939607 - 09/16/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
But we better not say anything about unconscious motivations or the 'brainpolice' will appear. But indeed I have suspicions of my own various 'sillinesses'
|
Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,369
Last seen: 1 hour, 59 minutes
|
Re: Debate & discussion as a way of metaphorically conveying your understanding of yourself [Re: laughingdog]
#26939971 - 09/17/20 12:46 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I dare say we are all still subject to the irrational side of our natures, or perhaps I only speak or myself when I point out that irrational silliness is a normal if somewhat irksome occurrence.
|
|