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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26931986 - 09/12/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
make sense
much doesn't




if something contradicts your experiences and expectations, does that mean it doesn’t make sense?

Quote:

“Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.”




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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #26932050 - 09/12/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
The only thing I can make myself believe is myself and that's as definitive as it get.

Everything else is just a solids guess.




will you know yourself if you bumped up against it?




Is math a construct.
Or was it always there to find.
Strangely enough the answer is love
The one thing it cant define.

This transcendental geometry.
That words cannot possibly convey.
Deeper than fundamentally
It's both the observer...and the day.

An exploration of an unassailable self.
The fingers with which we feel.
A mathematical pinch is just.
Proving ourselves to be real.

It hurts because we are the same.
Both the math and the mind.
Take the mask of separateness away.
You may be surprised by which answer you find.




You square the circle when you realise they are both you.

Spin a cube quickly enough and it becomes a ball.
Slow a ball down enough and it'll once again become a cube.
It all depends on your needs at that particular moment.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26932093 - 09/12/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Re: "Strangely enough the answer is love"

In a state of total oneness, "love" has no meaning.
In fact in a state of total oneness,  no meanings are possible.

All meaning depends on both contrast and context, both of which are forms of

differentiation & not of oneness,( in which by definition there are not only no boundaries within, but which also has no outer boundary).

You can't have your cake & eat it to.

Also balls do not turn into cubes just because they aren't rotating, as we all, already know.


Edited by laughingdog (09/12/20 04:22 PM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26932179 - 09/12/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What is a state of total oneness?  Am I or you in such a state.  High level of confusion here.

Perhaps identification is the operative word.  I identify with oneness, everything, and lose myself in such a state.  Yet in such a state love would take on new and improved meaning, no?  I think it would laughingdog, I think it would. 


Edited by Yellow Pants (09/12/20 05:19 PM)


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26932202 - 09/12/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: "Strangely enough the answer is love"

In a state of total oneness, "love" has no meaning.
In fact in a state of total oneness,  no meanings are possible.

All meaning depends on both contrast and context, both of which are forms of

differentiation & not of oneness,( in which by definition there are not only no boundaries within, but which also has no outer boundary).

You can't have your cake & eat it to.

Also balls do not turn into cubes just because they aren't rotating, as we all, already know.




When the abstract is to be explained sensibly we will always have "definition" issues....so oneloveness.

Mathematically speaking they break balls into squares for the most accurate (as close as they can get) measurement.
Depending on whether you want a game of b ball or an accurate measurement you have many shapes as options.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26932207 - 09/12/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Unity basically.  Yeah we’re all & all things are primordially bound.  Realization of this isn’t becoming one with the universe, it’s recognizing you and everyone and everything else always was and always will be.  It’s not like one second you’re  “one with” and then suddenly the next second you are not part of that unity.  Energy stuff thingynes.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26932218 - 09/12/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Unity basically.  Yeah we’re all & all things are primordially bound.  Realization of this isn’t becoming one with the universe, it’s recognizing you and everyone and everything else always was and always will.  Energy stuff thingynes.




Identification seems to be the operative word.  In this identification I would place 20 dollars that love would then take on new meaning rather than being dissolved as laughingdog points out.  He is in the wrong here.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26932225 - 09/12/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Rather the love comes into play before and or after the “thing” he points to.

Or maybe I’m just a light weight and this one IPA is making me speak more rubbish than usual.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26932231 - 09/12/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

As in it's always there?  Differentiation being the break from it.  Well this is what I am saying.  Identification in oneness as creating new and improved meanings regarding love relative to the differentiation.  Otherwise oneness is akin to a night of heavy drinking.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26932236 - 09/12/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I’ll come back and parlay when I’m sober.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26932244 - 09/12/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Drinking is a social activity.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26932326 - 09/12/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
make sense
much doesn't




if something contradicts your experiences and expectations, does that mean it doesn’t make sense?

Quote:

“Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.”






It was a pleasing statement for me to read from you.
I could parse it into my framework
in that way it was a relief, an island of familiarity - even if it was the familiarity of paradox.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26932426 - 09/12/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
It was a pleasing statement for me to read from you.
I could parse it into my framework
in that way it was a relief, an island of familiarity - even if it was the familiarity of paradox.




like an enigma wrapped in a mystery, it's all so ambigiously clear!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26932876 - 09/13/20 05:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

you might say so


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26940009 - 09/17/20 01:27 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Reality is NOT a function of cause and effect.

The idea of cause and effect ultimately relegates all of reality to the power of time…an abstract concept which cannot be argued to possess any causal force over anything at all, but only retains relevance as a means by which man cognitively organizes his environment for the purpose of survival. 

Try to explain time without a reference to the material universe.  I assure you it is impossible.  You cannot even make a mathematical argument.  For as soon as YOU open your mouth or tap on your keyboard or pen your letter or pick up your can and string you have already conceded the contrary argument.  YOU, a material agent, are required to explain time.  YOU must exist first, before time can have any rational meaning.  Thus, the material reality which we attempt to argue is caused by time is a prerequisite for the relevant meaning of the concept altogether.

It isn’t a debate then about whether existence causes consciousness or consciousness causes existence, or which comes first. 

There can be no rational debate because once we inject “cause” into the argument we have conceded a faulty determinist philosophy; that is, we and everything else are all a function of the unseen and unknowable force of time.  Which makes anything we argue moot by definition.


With respect to the determinative power of causality, I submit that there is none.  In support of this assertion I have developed the following explication, which reveals the nullifying contradiction of “cause and effect” when it is extracted from its purely conceptual  context:

There can be no cause qua cause until after  the effect is manifest. For what is a cause without an effect? It is certainly not a cause. For if a cause has not actually caused anything, then it is not a cause by definition.  In this way, then, anything which we would qualify as cause is categorically dependent for its rational and efficacious definition as a “cause” upon the effect.

Furthermore, we must also assert that there is no effect then which can exist except utterly independent of the cause. For unless the effect exists independently of the cause, it must be considered a direct and absolute function of the cause.  But if it is a direct and absolute function of the cause, then the distinction is eliminated, which then obliterates the very root essence of “cause and effect” in the first place, relegating it to irrelevance, and thus nonexistence…for that which is existentially irrelevant contradicts itself right out of existence.

Speaking of contradiction, note the following:

By the previous logic, cause and effect, being entirely distinct from one another, must therefore have entirely autonomous, separate existence already, prior to the confluence which is defined as “cause and effect” qua “cause and effect”.  In other words, there can be no effect unless the effect is an effect alone, absent any cause, before any cause manifests itself as a cause. Which then makes, by logical extension, the cause only a cause if it itself exists as such autonomously, absent the effect, before any effect manifests itself as an effect. In other words, each one must exist already as a prerequisite for “cause and effect” to  meet any sort of rationally consistent criteria in order to be defined as such: the effect is an effect prior to the cause causing it; and the cause is a cause prior to it actually having caused anything.

The cause needs the effect to be defined as the cause; and the effect needs the cause to be defined as an effect. But the effect cannot be a direct function of the cause without eliminating the distinction; and the cause cannot be given its absolute meaning and relevancy by the effect without likewise eliminating the distinction. But if the effect exists as the effect utterly independent of the cause, and the cause exists as the cause utterly independent of the effect, then what we assert is that an effect doesn’t actually require a cause to be an effect, and a cause doesn’t actually require an effect to be a cause.  Which…destroys the definitions of both, nullifying their “autonomous”, “independent” existence.

The point is that no matter from which angle approach it, you inevitably run into an impenetrable wall of contradiction.

And so it goes when we attempt to incorporate mutually exclusive conceptual abstractions into the non-abstract material universe of actual objects by assuming and imagining that they are likewise, themselves, in possession of a material, actual essence.

The solution to reconciling the contradictions now becomes apparent. We must not consider cause and effect an actual, catalyzing causal force…like we spuriously do with the laws of physics when we describe them as “governing”.  We must recognize cause and effect for what it really is: a concept human beings use to describe the relative movement of objects in the environment, objects which are fundamentally neither caused nor effected but are rooted in the infinity of their own absolute and infinitely singular material essence, in whatever form it happens to be observed, and as a function of whatever relative context in which it happens to be observed.

Indeed–and in conclusion–the presence of relativity in object interactions precludes any actual  (materially “existent”, for lack of a better term) cause and effect; yet it necessitates a conceptual cause and effect that the self-aware agent engages as a means to define and identify both what an object is, and how it is observed (i.e. its position relative to the observer at any given moment).


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26940421 - 09/17/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What is the difference between contradiction and paradox?

If a tree falls in the forest and a person is standing under it they get squashed.  Now there's a decent chance I understand the basics of what you're saying.  You are saying that it's not rational to say that the tree falling and the person getting squashed are in both a cause and effect process because if that were true then the cause and effect process would be one, singular movement assuming the effect had to happen.  Ok, fine.  But also, if I make the distinction between a "tree" and a "person" then that same process of the tree falling on the person is best expressed as a cause (tree falling) and the effect (person squashed).  How is this contradictory and not paradoxical?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26941015 - 09/17/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

if a light is on, and one flips a switch to turn it off, is that an indication that the present alters the past?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #26941024 - 09/17/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Cause and effect don't rely on time. Tje big bang happened because a conscious observer could exist in it. Universes unable to support consciousness in essence don't exist. So every time life happens it's reverse causality. At some point nothing split apart into negative and positive something and eventually life happened to observe itself.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26941093 - 09/17/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

what if, an ai sent a probe back in time, to see how their probe data, when sent back would affect the past, our present and recorded in our past?  wait, what!?


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26941512 - 09/17/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Space and points.. add them up and ypu have dimensions

Straight and curved lines are made up of a finite sets of points..

To know how to count the points brings good fortune..

Atoms perhaps?

But what are sub atomic particles?


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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