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AuoraBorealis
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Monotub Contams ***Please Help**
#26932020 - 09/12/20 03:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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The attached pics are of my spawn bags and an example of what the bins look like.
I'm running out of options here. I won't get into specifics,but things are bad and I don't have the time and resources I normally do. Typically I would have backups and I do plan on getting things better organized,but these bags HAVE to produce,no matter what.
Most of the bins I did with coir bricks and verm. 2 of them I did with poo and straw. All of them were Pasteurized inside my presto pressure cookers in the oven at 200 for 3 hours.
The coir bins seemed weak.the 2 I did with straw and Poo looked phenomenal.
They weren't pinning so I decided to case them(this has worked in the past). I used coir from a bag(prehydrated and old) that prob had mold in it. I mixed verm and coir (higher concentration of verm), and I oven pasteurized it.
Now every single bin is a complete loss.
Everyone on here seems to think contams on first flush means it was bad spawn,but things have never been that cut and dry for me.
Most seem to think that if the bags don't colonize all the way that there are contams,but it has always been very common to have grain only partially colonized at the tops of the bags when I have made them.
MY PLAN is to make more bins with the poo/straw mix and then case them with peat moss and verm BEFORE they are fully colonized. I was thinking that if I put them into fruiting conditions and cased them at 70-80% colonization,and when they are growing fast/strong...that it might have better results. (just call it a feeling,but They looked the healthiest before fill colonization and didn't pin. So I was thinking the casing layer is needed for the moisture content since it was just straight compost/straw)
These bags are even pinning. I don't see how they could be bad. Maybe the genetics are weak? I have 12 left and I need them to be utilized and produce,even if I only get 1 flush each before contams. I really have no idea why these did so poorly. I ha thought the straw/poo bins would have turned out,at the very least. Any constructive input on getting these bags to work for me would be greatly appreciated.


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Lieutenant Pan
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: AuoraBorealis]
#26932030 - 09/12/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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First question why put a pressure cooker in an oven it's meant for the stovetop! You aren't pasteurizing right so that's step 1.
The bag look like 6 pounds of grains? Try to inoculate 1 pound of grains in a bag see how that goes.
-------------------- I never thanked ya fer saving my life.
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Tweeq
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I'm confused about your methods. With coir blocks I would recommend to simply Bucket-tek those instead of whatever you did with the pc in the oven for 3 hrs thing.. By any method 3 hrs is waay too long for pasteurization btw.
Most growers prefer coir over poo/straw for cubes bc it doesn't contam easily. If it does b4 first flush it's usually the spawn.
Do you use agar?
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AuoraBorealis
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Because the pressure cooker holds more than some stupid turkey tin and it's sealed well enough that I don't have to worry about getting contams in it after the fact.
The amount of grain is perfectly fine.
So the consensus is that I didn't Pasteurize properly. If that's the case,then how so?
I've done the bucket Tek with the same results. I wanted to ensure I killed off anything bad. It's not as if coco coir and verm ahs much in the way of beneficial organisms,so overkill is better by my logic.
And 3 hours to ensure that the heat properly penetrated the PC. (Only 30min longer than recommended)
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AuoraBorealis
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: AuoraBorealis]
#26932253 - 09/12/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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These bags need to be used and are going to be used.
A basic coir and verm mix has failed with every single test I've done. The compost/straw looked the best.
If there is a better way to Pasteurize BULK sub,I'd really like to know. Because putting them in bags just won't work. A sealed metal container in the oven made most sense to me.
And my primary concern is the casing question I asked. The two with compost and straw looked really good,but didn't pin. And then I cased it with verm and coir that I think might have been a little off,but I heated the hell out of it.
I think the casing is what fucked everything up,but I can't be certain
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Edited by AuoraBorealis (09/12/20 05:40 PM)
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AuoraBorealis
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: Tweeq]
#26932259 - 09/12/20 05:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's POSSIBLE the bags are not good,but I highly doubt it. I'm going on the assumption that they are fine.
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Lieutenant Pan
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: AuoraBorealis]
#26932267 - 09/12/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Pasteurizing brings the internal temp of the bag to a certain temp for an hour. By baking a metal cooker in the oven you have no clue what the internal bag temps are do you?
-------------------- I never thanked ya fer saving my life.
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dirtybirdx
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Put coir in a cooler, pour boiling water on it, use it when it’s cool.
No verm. No gypsum. No hpoo or straw.
I don’t even use a casing layer.
It’s fine.
Just sounds like you’re doing wayyyy too much 🤷🏻♂️
-------------------- Need help?

Edited by dirtybirdx (09/12/20 05:56 PM)
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AuoraBorealis
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I don't use bags. I literally just fill the cooker and hydrate . I figured it was a fair assumption that the temp would be what I set the oven to.
I do not have a cooler. And these are the last bags I have available. *Super important and can't be wasted*
I did coir and verm already...ddi it in the oven..did bucket Tek....neither worked. it's possible it's the bags..but I can't afford for that to be the case.
Compost and straw is what I'm using because it had the best results with these particular bags/genetics so far...up until I cased the bin,as I've said.
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Lieutenant Pan
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: AuoraBorealis]
#26932374 - 09/12/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Use jars or bags like the rest of us. Otherwise one of them digital thermometers with the probes you can leave in the oven it'll beep you when the middle gets to 160. Dry heat doesn't sound like pasteurizing to me but my name ain't Louis.
-------------------- I never thanked ya fer saving my life.
Edited by Lieutenant Pan (09/12/20 07:09 PM)
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hazyhorse
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you don’t need to pasteurize coir, & you don’t need a cooler to do it you just need a 5gal bucket that you can pour boiling water into. you can even just hydrate it with straight cold tap if you want. i promise you the coir isn’t where you’re getting contams from
if your bags aren’t colonizing fully, they have contamination. there’s no way around it. those bags look like they got fucked by bacteria to me. if the grains are only partially colonizing that’s even more of a sign it’s contamination. when you put unclean spawn into coir... you’re gonna get contaminated tubs. if you’re really desperate for mushies you could spawn those bags to coir but they won’t perform well
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Roger Clemency
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: hazyhorse]
#26932635 - 09/12/20 10:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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This has been a bizarre read. I’m high af too. I can’t tell if Aurora is messing around.
Pasteurizing means keeping the sub between like 140 to 165 for an hour or 90 and then letting it cool off. You can do it in a 55 gal drum with 160f water. At least someone on here does it like that and apparently it keeps the temp well. I’ve done it with buckets wrapped in sleeping bags.
That first bag looks bad. The second looks better but still not great. How do you inoculate them? You can’t force them to be clean if they’re not though lol
-------------------- Sour grapes, sweet revenge Heaven starts right where hell ends
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AuoraBorealis
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I pretty much figured these are the responses I would get.
I'm not sure what is so confusing. I hydrate the sub(over hydrate to compensate for the heat) and keep it in the PC in the oven.
Can anyone give me an actual reason why this would not work properly?
I have done the bucket Tek. It's not working for me lately. I just started using the oven because I wanted to be extra sure I reached the proper temps.
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Roger Clemency
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: AuoraBorealis]
#26932656 - 09/12/20 11:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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But are you monitoring the core temp of your sub? Pasteurizing has to happen in a window, too low or too high for too long and it won’t be pasteurized anymore and with manure, straw and other stuff you’ll often get trich or some kind of mold.
Some people totally sterilize hpoo with good results but that would take more than the oven I think.
-------------------- Sour grapes, sweet revenge Heaven starts right where hell ends
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AuoraBorealis
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Ok...well this is the area that I am ignorant in,I guess.
Why would overheating cause contams? I figured,at worse,it would just have less benefit. I, literally,have never monitored by temps. I don't even have a meat thermometer.
For so long I just used the bucket Tek. If over heating and/or heating for too long can cause varying results,then that would explain SOOOO much.
Can you elaborate on how, exactly, "over Pasteurization" can make it just as likely to get contams as if you didn't Pasteurize at all?
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hazyhorse
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i think what’s confusing is that you’re just completely winging something & assuming it’ll work. idk much about pasteurization & i would honestly just recommend you do coir to make it easier but if you’re dead set on pasteurizing, follow a tek first & do your experiments later just so you actually get some mushrooms. i think the suggestion of using a thermometer to measure it at the very least may shed some light on if your PC thing is actually working & properly pasteurizing
the bags are fucked. sorry man. if you really want to test, break them up & mix them around & see how they recover. my guess is that they won’t. roger asked a good question: how are you inoculating them? from what i have read, bags are rather tricky in SABs. are you using agar wedges to inoculate the bags? or did you use a spore syringe? if you have clean spawn, your subs shouldn’t contam (at least with coir). the only contam i’ve ever gotten in a tub over a year & a half of growing was because i spawned bacterial jars. if your spawn is clean, your tubs should stay contam free through all the flushes (unless maybe you really fuck it up on the harvest)
like i said, not an expert on pasteurization but from what i gather, there are beneficial organisms in the straw/hpoo that help fight contamination. if you kill those off, contams take over. coir does NOT need to be pasteurized like hpoo & other subs do because it is naturally contam resistant
-------------------- you're not the first to set foot here, just another =================================== i love glass petris & you can too!! posts i constantly refer back to new to mushroom cultivation?? read this!! ===================================
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AuoraBorealis
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: hazyhorse]
#26932687 - 09/12/20 11:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I was replying to Roger, primarily. I am very curious about the idea of contams being likely from overheating.
But the bags were inoculated from liquid culture. I broke them up repeatedly already,but is also had the same thought and broke up one this morning. I fully expect them to recover normally like they have been since inoculation.
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Lieutenant Pan
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: AuoraBorealis] 1
#26932688 - 09/12/20 11:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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overheating kills the beneficial organisms / bacterias you can't wing stuff do it in bags or jars yo.
-------------------- I never thanked ya fer saving my life.
Edited by Lieutenant Pan (09/12/20 11:33 PM)
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Lieutenant Pan
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Quote:
Roger Clemency said: This has been a bizarre read.
I'm waiting for AShton Kutcher to come out and say we've been punk'd
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AuoraBorealis
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#PUNK'D
I guess I can understand how this might seem weird to you,but if you consider the fact that I started,and continued, to use the bucket Tek 3 years ago,then maybe it will make more sense.
I have grown as much as 25lb(dry),in a small apartment bedroom I'm the span of a month. I have compensated for failure by,simply,doing more. I have NEVER checked the temp of substrate before....not once.
The bucket Tek worked,more often than not. But insulating buckets properly is a problem.
I thought the idea was to kill off any bacteria/spores with heat. You all act like it's obvious,but it didn't make much sense to me that heating it too much would cause contams. Mycelium can colonize practically anything. Why would it matter if it killed off good stuff? Unless the good fought off the bad?
I have literally always thought the point was to give the Mycelium something completely sterile to colonize as quickly as possible before contams could form.
So,this is my problem with this forum... questions never get answered directly and it's more like a random group text chat with strangers who have widely differing opinions.
My main question was what to do about casing. Not how my bags look...not to advise me to do bucket methods. And when I say I have the materials that I have....that's what I mean. I don't even own a meat thermometer,though that could easily be remedied.
But I don't have money to get different containers,supplies,etc.
So...I understand the need for an internal be core temperature to be maintained long enough to kill contamination. HOWEVER, I have never had any thought/advice to suggest that heating it too much and/or too long would CAUSE contamination to form. It's a fairly rational question to ask. It's not as if coir has much benefit to mycelium,so why would it matter if its heated for longer.
..this has gotten wayy off topic. I don't have bags or jars to Pasteurize substrate in. I can't get any right now,either.
Apparently I'm too simple minded for people. There is ALWAYS a simple way to do something. What I like to do is understand the "why and how" and then find the simplest ways to achieve it.
So....let's say I have some hydrated substrate, a pressure cooker and an oven...but I don't have the money/time to do a lot of cooks for a large amount of substrate. How can I fill the pressure cooker up,close to capacity, and properly Pasteurize it?
That's what I need thoughts on. I'm aware of the "typical" methods already.
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hazyhorse
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: AuoraBorealis]
#26932772 - 09/13/20 01:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20822448
googled “oven tek pasteurization” & this was like the first result. i’m sure you could adapt it into whatever you can make work.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22307513
Quote:
Mad Season said: Except you need microbes. Manure is FULL of it. It's actually in quite a few documents that you want to hydrate it and let it sit for a bit before pasteurization so the beneficial microbe count can be higher prior to pasteurization. Pasteurization kills about 75% of the microbes, as well as killing almost all of the molds.
There are some thermophilic microbes as well that will thrive at higher temps and take over the manure if you slowly cool it over night. By doing so it'll get colonized by beneficial microbes that won't let invaders like trich in.
Also lastly pasteurization imo shouldn't go past 155. The closer to 140 you are in the center of the substrate you're pasteurizing, the better. I do 140-150 for 1 hour. Almost all molds die at 130 for 30 minutes, so really anything more kills beneficial microbes.
Tell that dude that i still at this moment have hydrated, properly pasteurized manure in open air, in my basement that has ZERO visible molds. BTW I just found this lost in my basement a few days ago:

and the manure still isn't contaminated. This leads me to believe that as long as your manure is properly pasteurized any contaminations like trich are always from bad spawn. I'd bet a major difference between now and back then is the cleanliness of your spawn as well.
the thread i linked has even more info, but it’s pretty much just that good microbes help fight the bad ones. if you get rid of the good ones, contamination has much more of a foothold to infect your tubs
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12147985
old thread but you don’t really need to pasteurize casings, even if it’s peat. you case at 100% colonization of the tub, or you can do a pseudocase right at spawn. i don’t really know what other questions about casing you would have.
Quote:
AuoraBorealis said: It's not as if coir has much benefit to mycelium,so why would it matter if its heated for longer
coir doesn’t need to be heated at all. you can use cold tap water to hydrate coir without any contamination. manure & straw do need to be pasteurized properly for the reasons above
-------------------- you're not the first to set foot here, just another =================================== i love glass petris & you can too!! posts i constantly refer back to new to mushroom cultivation?? read this!! ===================================
  🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼 🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿
Edited by hazyhorse (09/13/20 02:30 AM)
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Tweeq
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: hazyhorse]
#26932796 - 09/13/20 02:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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You probably don't wanna know this but I'll assume here (you were asked twice but didn't answer) that you still need to learn agar.
My guess is still the obvious: It's your spawn. No matter how you heat your sub, bad spawn will cause contam.
I pour boiling water on my coir in a cooler and that's it and have never had one contam bc of it. I have had plenty shit happen to me bc of spawn that I was 'certain' was good. In hindsight, it wasn't.
This is likely also what's causing your problems rn
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Lieutenant Pan
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Re: Monotub Contams ***Please Help** [Re: Tweeq]
#26932799 - 09/13/20 02:56 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you want to pasteurize a ton at once I think someone had a trough coir tek going on use the search function to find it yo. Basically threw all the mix in a large metal container from there you could add a heating element of sorts. King Louis Pasteur says to get it up to 140-160 for an hour don't over complicate it.
Cook below 140 it's not pasteured. Cook over 160 you're killing off everything that can save a grow a flush down the road.
-------------------- I never thanked ya fer saving my life.
Edited by Lieutenant Pan (09/13/20 02:58 AM)
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Roger Clemency
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Casing a tub is not going to magically make a contaminated sub start pinning.
You have a pressure cooker, it’s shaped sort of like a bucket.. I’m positive you could figure out a way to make things work with info from here and supplies you already have.
The most important part of mush cult is producing clean spawn and you’ve posted pictures of non clean spawn and said you’ve been having issues, that’s probably a huge part of your issues and why people keep mentioning it.
If you’re using just coir/verm then you don’t need to properly pasteurize. You can use hot water, boiling water (to cook the coir a bit which helps colonization) or room temp water. It doesn’t matter. These little Tupperware I did the coir with just cool tap water If your coir sub tams out before first flush you know it’s your spawn being dirty.
Hpoo and stuff needs proper pasteurization to consistently work or total sterilization jars/bags in the pc maybe.
-------------------- Sour grapes, sweet revenge Heaven starts right where hell ends
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