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OnlineKryptos
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Enlil]
    #26929666 - 09/11/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

In almost every case I know of, actions can be used to prove intent.

I base my statement on the fact that the NCSBE immediately told people that it is illegal to vote twice.


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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26929668 - 09/11/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

NCSBE statements aren't law.  And yes, actions can be used to prove intent.  Trump's actions clearly showed that his intent was not that anyone have two votes counted in a single election.  Therefore, Trump did not encourage anyone to break the law nor did he break the law himself with that statement.

How long are you going to cling to a debunked position?  By this point, you already know I'm right.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Kryptos]
    #26929697 - 09/11/20 10:18 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
No, what Trump suggested was that people vote twice in NC, which is illegal.



Even Snopes said "the stated goal was to ensure people's ballots get counted, not to elicit double voting."

And though Trump's speech was in North Carolina, I assume that public Presidential speeches are intended to be broadcast nationwide, so he wasn't necessarily only referring to NC voters.

I even can agree with Enlil's comment:
Quote:

Enlil said:
What trump said was foolish, reckless, and irresponsible, for sure.




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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929717 - 09/11/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Isn’t it cool how  Trump doesn’t speak like a politician?
      I didnt know when I heard people saying that back during the election it would mean I would get to watch you guys argue over what he meant , for a week .
  I was actually expecting something else .


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929737 - 09/11/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yea, I agree with that assessment as well - and to be honest I regret even participating in the discussion, because the implication of your DOJ representing the president in a personal legal matter is far more interesting. I'm not sure how the continual conflation between Trump and regime can be seen as anything but a burgeoning cult of personality.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26929784 - 09/11/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
...the implication of your DOJ representing the president in a personal legal matter is far more interesting.



He hasn't been found guilty of rape, so his claim that she was lying (which he made while he was President) could possibly be true (I have no idea).

Regardless, a judge will still have to allow the Department of Justice to handle the case, so we'll see what they decide.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929793 - 09/11/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It could be true.  If, however, I was accused of rape, and a woman claimed to have the DNA of the rapist, I would have demanded that DNA in discovery so I could prove it wasn't mine.  Interestingly, he did just the opposite and has done everything he can to prevent a DNA comparison.  A DNA comparison that excludes him would end the case immediately. 

The chosen strategy certainly points to the conclusion that he knows she has his DNA.  Whether it was rape is a whole other question, of course.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Enlil]
    #26929800 - 09/11/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Whether it was rape is a whole other question, of course.



Ya, I was just going to say that.  She was modeling lingerie for him, which of course doesn't give him the right to force sex on her, but what really happened we don't currently know.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929804 - 09/11/20 11:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If it is his DNA, he's lying about her not being his type or lying about having a type.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929823 - 09/11/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
She was modeling lingerie for him




I don't know what your source is for this, but this is certainly a gross misrepresentation of her explanation of the events.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: falcon]
    #26929824 - 09/11/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

True, but Enlil clarified that's not the reason he's being sued.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929828 - 09/11/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure how that changes things - why is it within the scope of a president’s duties to comment on the physical appearance of a woman who had accused him of rape? It's clearly a personal matter and this conflation between a private individual and your state institutions should be worrying.



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26929835 - 09/11/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
She was modeling lingerie for him



I don't know what your source is for this, but this is certainly a gross misrepresentation of her explanation of the events.



The Huffington Post:
Quote:

According to Carroll, Trump spotted her in the store, recognizing her as “that advice lady.” He then asked if she would help him buy a gift for an unnamed woman. Carroll agreed, and after browsing gifts, Trump allegedly led her to the lingerie section. He suggested that she try on a lace bodysuit, and after expressing reservations, she reluctantly agreed.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26929840 - 09/11/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
why is it within the scope of a president’s duties to comment on the physical appearance of a woman who had accused him of rape?



Again, Enlil clarified that's NOT what he's being sued for and it's NOT what the DOJ is defending him for.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929843 - 09/11/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know their source, but the complaint tells a different story.  According to the complaint, no lingerie was ever tried on at all.  He grabbed some lingerie and said, "let's try this on."  He said this after she suggested that he try it on.  Never did she agree to try anything on, and in fact, he never gave her a chance.  I don't know if huffington post is making that up or relying on some other source, but I'm pulling this all right out of the complaint.  Here is the relevant section of the complaint:

Quote:


29. Trump then had an idea: He would buy lingerie instead.
30. Trump and Carroll rode up the escalator to the lingerie department. When they arrived, it was uncharacteristically empty, with no sales attendant in sight. Sitting on the counter near them were two or three boxes and a see-through bodysuit in lilac gray.
31. Snatching the bodysuit, Trump insisted that Carroll try it on. Bemused, Carroll responded that he should try it on himself, adding that it was his color. Trump and Carroll went back and forth, teasing each other about who should try on the bodysuit.
32. Suddenly, Trump grabbed Carroll’s arm and said, “Let’s put this on.”
33. Trump maneuvered Carroll to the dressing room. As they moved, Carroll laughed, thinking to herself that she would make him put the bodysuit on over his pants.
34. Strangely for Bergdorf’s, the dressing room door was open and unlocked.
35. Trump closed the door of the dressing room.
36. Immediately, Trump lunged at Carroll, pushing her against the wall, bumping her head quite badly, and putting his mouth on her lips.
37. Carroll shoved him back. Utterly shocked by Trump’s unexpected attack, Carroll burst out in awkward laughter. She could hardly process the insanity of the situation. She also hoped, at least at first, that laughter would bruise his ego and cause him to retreat.
38. But Trump did not stop. He seized both of her arms and pushed her up against the wall again, bumping her head a second time. While pinning Carroll against the wall with his shoulder, Trump jammed his hand under her coatdress and pulled down her tights.
39. Trump opened his overcoat and unzipped his pants. Trump then pushed his fingers around Carroll’s genitals and forced his penis inside of her.
40. Carroll resisted, struggling to break free. She tried to stomp his foot with her high heels. She tried to push him away with her one free hand (as she kept holding her purse with the other). Finally, she raised a knee up high enough to push him out and off her.
41. Carroll ran out of the dressing room, out of Bergdorf’s, and onto Fifth Avenue.
42. The whole attack lasted two to three minutes.




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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929844 - 09/11/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
why is it within the scope of a president’s duties to comment on the physical appearance of a woman who had accused him of rape?



Again, Enlil clarified that's NOT what he's being sued for and it's NOT what the DOJ is defending him for.



Why is it within the scope of a president's duties to call a rape victim a liar or to claim that he never met her?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Enlil]
    #26929846 - 09/11/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

That's for the judge to decide.  I'm not a lawyer.  We'll see what he says.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Enlil]
    #26929850 - 09/11/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know their source, but the complaint tells a different story.



They say their source was her book, not her complaint.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929861 - 09/11/20 11:46 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
why is it within the scope of a president’s duties to comment on the physical appearance of a woman who had accused him of rape?



Again, Enlil clarified that's NOT what he's being sued for and it's NOT what the DOJ is defending him for.



Did I say that's what he's being sued for?

He's being sued for defamation because he essentially called her a liar in his response to her accusation - included in that statement was disparaging comments on a private citizens appearance. The DOJ claims that his statement - which includes the comments on her physical appearance - were made in his official capacity of president. Why is disparaging private citizens over personal matters considered within the scope of the president’s duties?




Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's for the judge to decide.  I'm not a lawyer.  We'll see what he says.



Most of us aren't lawyers - that's never prevented us from giving our inexpert opinions in the past. Odd you have no opinion to share regarding this conflation of private individual and state institutions.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: DOJ to represent Trump in a personal legal matter [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26929868 - 09/11/20 11:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Most of us aren't lawyers - that's never prevented us from giving our inexpert opinions in the past. Odd you have no opinion to share regarding this conflation of private individual and state institutions.



You're asking me to give my opinion about a law I'm not familiar with?

According to Barr, D.C. case law ruled “elected officials in our ... representative democracy when they’re answering questions in office even about personal affairs, any defamation claim is subject to Westfall.”

If he's right, I agree with him, if he's not, the judge shouldn't allow it and I'll agree with that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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