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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26929484 - 09/11/20 07:37 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.

Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.




Ignoring the clear flaws in a “might makes right” argument, you realize capitalism has only been around a few hundred years, right? If the dominant system was always dominant we’d still be hunter gatherers and killing rival groups for their women and food.




So capitalism is not as dangerous as people make it out to be? Other economic systems have a chance at over taking it?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26929486 - 09/11/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Eh, we still kill rival groups for their women and food.

We just added oil to the list.




Wars are always fought for economic purposes. The US are not the only ones that do this(although we seem to have perfected it); humanity itself can be brutal.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929519 - 09/11/20 08:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't know either.  Enlil once said something like communism can't work because capitalism does too much to prevent it from working.



That's the problem.  Human greed will not allow a large-scale communist society to exist.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26929525 - 09/11/20 08:19 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.

Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.




Ignoring the clear flaws in a “might makes right” argument, you realize capitalism has only been around a few hundred years, right? If the dominant system was always dominant we’d still be hunter gatherers and killing rival groups for their women and food.




So capitalism is not as dangerous as people make it out to be? Other economic systems have a chance at over taking it?




A gun has a chance of a misfire, does that mean you're okay with someone pointing a gun at you and pulling the trigger?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26929550 - 09/11/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

No.
So capitalism can be overcome by other economic systems? Or will they just dump money in, like you suggested?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26929566 - 09/11/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Economic systems don't overcome one another.  They are put in place by people. 
At one time the people with influence supported feudalism so feudalism was the system.  Had nothing to do with some other system being better or worse for people in general.  Mercantilism didn't overtake feudalism.  It was invented to more effectively serve the folks in charge just like it's replacement, Capitalism


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26930008 - 09/11/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A differnt word than "overcome"....superior or insert any other word.... what was the USA doing in the 80s to topple the USSR? Economic systems do influence one another. Of course, human are behind most economic systems. The sanactions of the US vs. Venezuela shows this.

It has been stated here numerous times that capitalism prevents other economic systems from thier  potential. My questions still remains if this is true or not.

Edit: Reread your post Bal, are you saying tbe only thing that makes capitalism so dominant is the people supporting it? Isnt it true that no matter the human support behind an economic philosophy , if that economic philosophy is meek or erroneous,  it will fail? The mode of capitalism itself, makes it dominant.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/11/20 02:03 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26930194 - 09/11/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Your own post answers your question.

Nothing happens in a vacuum.

What was the US doing to topple the USSR in the 80s? Arms race. The entire Cold War was an economic dick measuring contest to see who could outspend the other guy. Of course, the playing field was not fair. Hitler advanced to within 40km of Moscow during WWII, which means Hitler's troops destroyed the majority of the USSR's industrial infrastructure. Everything that wasn't packed up on a train and shipped to the Urals was lost to the Nazis.

The US had the distinct pleasure of being completely untouched during WWII. The infrastructure remained. Fewer people died in the war. Outside of a few instances, like then the US ignored the Brits during the Second Happy Time, the US came out on top in every way possible.

Here's another example: Right now, people in the US are worried about the rise of China. It's always about the "rise", though. China pours more concrete every three years than the US poured in the entire 20th century. US bridges are falling apart, China is building new ones. As of 2018, China has surpassed the US in terms of scientific output. They've been ahead in Civil and Mechanical engineering for over a decade, but now they've surpassed us overall. The only real scientific edge the US has right now is biomedical engineering, but with Covid, that seems less like a certainty and more like wishful thinking.

The Chinese Navy right now has more ships than the US. Chinese missiles are spreading across the world.

The US is ahead of China by exactly one metric: Apple is worth more than Huawei and Amazon is worth more than Alibaba. How much of that value is due to the US pumping government money into those companies?

China surpassed the US a long time ago, it's just that we still haven't realized it. The only advantage that the US has over China, right now, is that the US government can extract more cash out of US citizens than China can extract from Chinese citizens. We can outspend them. Same way we outspent the USSR.

That's how capitalism survives. It is willing to self-cannibalize to outspend the competition.

The first few million playstations and iPhones are (semi-)famously sold at a loss. After that, the economy of scale kicks in. Why are they sold at a loss? Because Sony and Apple have the cash reserves to take the hit. If they didn't take the hit, then a competitor with a better product would take their market share.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26930245 - 09/11/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Although not as touched, we were definitely touched in Pearl Harbor. Your other points regarding infrastructure seem correct.

Lets say there is a boat race with the goal of passing the finish line one nautical mile down the water.

BOAT 1 has 100 people cheering/supporting a win, but with one oar.

BOAT 2 has 50 people supporting/cheering a win but with a 460 marine engine.

Who has more people? Who will likely win?
.....and are the Chinese becoming more dominant because of capitalism?


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/11/20 03:36 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26930267 - 09/11/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The Chinese are becoming more dominant for the same reason the US became more dominant, and Britain before that.

The Chinese are working on their infrastructure, and expanding their influence worldwide. They have developed a solid base to work from, because they don't feel the need to set records and show off by being the "greatest".

The US is doing the exact opposite. Our infrastructure is crumbling, our influence is crumbling, and we're focused on milking the population to make sure Apple and Amazon are the most expensive companies in the world for as long as possible.

To use your boat analogy, the US is a boat with 100 cheerleaders, burning oars for warmth. China is busy figuring out how to build an engine.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 2
    #26931091 - 09/12/20 01:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
That sounds pretty fucking awesome.  Get a fresh perspective in there. 

The Elite must be the ones who exploit the working class.  They are the owning class then.  The ones the workers work for.  Isn't this what people mean when they say Capitalism sucks, The capitalist being the man with the coin who enslaves a bunch of workers to do his or her bidding.  The anti christ to a worker co-op.

Is this not the case?



I don't believe that wealthy people have an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers, but I will say that our capitalist system doesn't do anything to stop wealthy people from doing so (in fact, it rewards such behavior with more capital, more power, more wealth). There's nothing evil about being wealthy, but people with absurd amounts of wealth working within a system that allows wealth to be used to exploit and oppress is an unfair combination.

Phrased as a question: Wealthy people don't have an inherent drive to exploit and oppress poor people, but if you were a wealthy person living within our current system, why wouldn't you behave that way? The problem isn't wealth: the problem is our system itself, which rewards wealthy people for using their wealth to subjugate others.




I have to disagree with you here (but I'll admit I'm confused by the distinction you're making in those two paragraphs). There is nothin wrong with capitalists making profit off of workers, but after 4 solid decades of increasing inequality, I think it's safe to say that the only capitalists who aren't exploiting workers are the ones who aren't any good at it.


--------------------
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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26931492 - 09/12/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

"There is nothing wrong with capitalists making profits off workers"

Wage slavery does not enter into the immoral ?  I don't think it does either.  However like you said due to current situation it is distasteful.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26932028 - 09/12/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
"There is nothing wrong with capitalists making profits off workers"

Wage slavery does not enter into the immoral ?  I don't think it does either.  However like you said due to current situation it is distasteful.




The level of exploitation has become disgusting and immoral. I remember the often quoted facts from the early 80's that at major Japanese corporations, the CEOs made eight times as much as the janitors. That is an acceptable level of capitalist exploitation and inequality. More than that would be acceptable, but not the levels we are at. Economists describe our system as a "tournament model", which is winner take all.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26932077 - 09/12/20 04:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

In a worker co-op perhaps this would be a discussion.  "How much should x make compared to y?".  Everybody would vote.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26932375 - 09/12/20 07:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Here is my view of capitalism...

First and foremost, capitalism works.  It has grown the global economy into a powerhouse.  Most people have a job, most people earn a salary, some succeed, a few makes it big.  Capitalism gives entrepreneurs to give it a shot.  Even if it fails, you can try again.  It also lifted hundreds of million of people out of poverty.

It is a flawed system.  You can put band aids on it whenever you need too but you'll never heal the wound.  Constant governmental supervision is needed to absorb the cost of it.  Which, in theory makes it an even better system because you can compensate for it's shortcomings.

The better you address the negative impacts of capitalism with socialism, the healthier you will grow your country up to a point.  If you try too hard, you will hurt the country because lifting the safety net too high will prevent some of getting very rich which will reduce tax revue, which will make to safety net unaffordable.

Capitalsim and socialism is a balancing act.  A very moody balancing act.




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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26932593 - 09/12/20 09:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Meh, there is no perfect system.  Trust in God and live yoir life the way you want.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: meltdowner]
    #26932595 - 09/12/20 10:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

God is a fictional character.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Enlil]
    #26932874 - 09/13/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Capitalism?... slaps the bonnet - it works, suits humans, and drives innovation onwards on the hamster wheel to nowhere :thumbup:
Cons- requires constant government tinkering moving the goal posts/rules, which are usually moved too late, or the wrong way, or not enough, or too much.
Suits criminals, narcissists, psychopaths, dictators and people without conscience best.
Not recommended for utopian society.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Enlil]
    #26932886 - 09/13/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
God is a fictional character.





We're plausibly a fictional universe taking place on the edge of the schwarzschild radius of a 4 dimensional black hole though.

So, all bets are off :smile:

https://www.nature.com/news/did-a-hyper-black-hole-spawn-the-universe-1.13743


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26933273 - 09/13/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Meh, there is no perfect system.  Trust in God and live yoir life the way you want.




There’s no perfect system just trust in the perfect being :cookiemonster:


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