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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928426 - 09/10/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Our justice system is pretty shitty at proving guilt. Nowadays, it seems more focused on making people plead guilty regardless of guilt just to make things easier. For minor crimes, you can often spend less time in jail by pleading guilty than by proving your innocence.

Our society generally accepts this system, because nothing is permanent within this system. So a guy with a bag of oregano spent a month in jail after pleading guilty for possession of weed. Who cares? If they were important, they would have had the money to pay bail and fight it in court.

When it comes to the death penalty, however, things are a lot more permanent. Suddenly, the system damn well better work.

Often when I see people arguing in favor for the death penalty, they operate on two assumptions: this would only apply to people (1) guilty beyond reasonable doubt of (2) truly heinous crimes. The underlying assumption here is that the current justice system is entirely accurate at proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and doesn't excel at forcing false confessions from people that realize it's easier to just do the time than to prove their innocence.

A less charitable interpretation is they don't want to deal with the fact that the justice system is so inaccurate, and dead people don't appeal.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928445 - 09/10/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

That all definitely helps me understand better. Thanks!


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928647 - 09/10/20 04:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Justice system sucks. Can say anything about supporting or not supporting anything under the justice system and it will not change the fact that it sucks.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928654 - 09/10/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
...and yet it costs more to carry out an execution that to house a prisoner for a lifetime.



It's almost like this was the first stupid cliche point I addressed...

I dont care that it 'costs more' based on an incredibly nuanced series of averages. Im not playing business man, im doling out justice. Penny pinching has a time and a place. Tax payers should never have to pay for meals, healthcare, and housing of people that have no reason to be here anymore. Especially not off the notion that it is in some way saving money on lethal injection serum or some worthless BS point. How many people do you think we'd be executing, bruh?


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928721 - 09/10/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Especially not off the notion that it is in some way saving money on lethal injection serum or some worthless BS point




Did you even read what he said?

Quote:

Kryptos said:
It's more expensive to prove absolute guilt, and when execution is on the table, appeals are taken more seriously, usually with expensive lawyers on both sides of the aisle. No more leaving the defendant to rely on some recent law school grad that's been practicing for a year.

Also, the process itself is quite expensive.




It’s not cheap to just execute someone but the majority of the cost comes from assuring the person is actually guilty. Even then the process is far from perfect and too many innocent people end up on death row


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26928725 - 09/10/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Mod Edit: I get the point but you need to make it in a different way


Edited by ballsalsa (09/10/20 07:01 PM)


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26928793 - 09/10/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
How many people do you think we'd be executing, bruh?



I guess that would depend on which cases we see as justification for capital punishment.


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OnlineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26928956 - 09/10/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
...and yet it costs more to carry out an execution that to house a prisoner for a lifetime.



It's almost like this was the first stupid cliche point I addressed...

I dont care that it 'costs more' based on an incredibly nuanced series of averages. Im not playing business man, im doling out justice. Penny pinching has a time and a place. Tax payers should never have to pay for meals, healthcare, and housing of people that have no reason to be here anymore. Especially not off the notion that it is in some way saving money on lethal injection serum or some worthless BS point. How many people do you think we'd be executing, bruh?



You're assuming that the guilty party actually is guilty. Maybe some day you end up on the wrong end of the needle for something you didnt do and you'll think differently. But I doubt that kind of justice really ever happens :/


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #26934586 - 09/14/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

Asante said:
Justified or unjustifiable in the current system?




As justifiable as the rest of the justice system.

Quote:

Asante said:
If justified, what methods of execution do you support?




Gameshow






In case the second part of my post was not recognized as a sarcastic pop culture reference please know that I was not seriously suggesting gameshow.

If capital punishment is to be undertaken it should be with lethal injection as used in euthanasia in Holland and other places where legal.

In case my first answer lacked clarity too, I am saying in a perfect, just justice system yes, but in an imperfect system it is unjust.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Sugabearcrisp] * 1
    #26934963 - 09/14/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Lethal injection is pretty inhumane. Even if the drugs work perfect every time (which they don't) and the dosage is perfect every time (which it is not), some people (like me) have big problems with needles. Gas chambers are the way to go.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26935620 - 09/14/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I happen to have a big problem with inhaling lethal amounts of toxic gas.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26935632 - 09/14/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Lethal =/= toxic.

Inert gas, such as nitrogen (which is literally cheaper than air), is what I'm aiming for. You just kinda go to sleep as things shut down from oxygen deprivation, but your choking reflex/panic never activates because the biological pathway is based on CO2 buildup, not actual oxygen deprivation.

The worst I've ever heard it described as is "I run into a room and can't seem to catch my breath".


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26935722 - 09/14/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

More than half of the air you breathe is nitrogen lol


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26935787 - 09/14/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Helium, but aparently we are running out of it.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #26936343 - 09/15/20 04:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yeetusdeetus said:
More than half of the air you breathe is nitrogen lol




Which is why someone put into a 100% nitrogen atmosphere dies peacefully, they're used to breathing it.

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Helium, but aparently we are running out of it.




Expensive AF.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26936368 - 09/15/20 04:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Know whats gnarly? Nitrogen asphyxiation by mask. That you are surrounded by perfectly breathable air but they are piping pure nitrogen into your mask.

That would be cruel and unusual. A nitrogen gas chamber makes it more humane.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Asante]
    #26936374 - 09/15/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Forced exit bag?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26936397 - 09/15/20 05:35 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yup, when you take a peaceful mask you are doing it voluntarily. If you do it involuntarily though its a form of torture, let alone an exit bag.


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Asante]
    #26936688 - 09/15/20 09:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I’ve heard that half of the time when someone dies via exit bag they’ll instinctually flail  and try to get the bag off. If the persons wrists aren’t secure there’s a good chance they can wake up with severe brain damage. I don’t think it hurts it’s just the brain doing what it can go keep you alive.

Either way it’s the most accessible and ethical form of euthanasia aside from maybe barbiturates or opiates.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Capital punishment, where do you stand? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26936698 - 09/15/20 09:49 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Exit bags arent really humane because you have some CO2 buildup triggering the asphyxiation reflex, as well as a sense of a confined space you instinctively want out of.

An asphyxiation chamber would eliminate that and any chance of the process botching.


When you say "gas chamber" I cant help but think of:




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