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SirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Asante] 1
#26928565 - 09/10/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.
Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] 2
#26928566 - 09/10/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
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Kryptos said:
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qman said: 1. Labor unions in all industries. 2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations. 5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs. 6. Free college and cancel student debt. 7. Public employment for the unemployed. 8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.
All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.
Cut those two and I'd agree. Economic protectionism breeds complacency and inefficiency. Removing immigration only promotes the same. There is absolutely no need for a first world country to have a portion of its population engaged in primary economic activities, which are inherently less valuable, and only serve to create an underclass in a society by stifling the growth of specific individuals to make them good shit-tier laborers.
Nobody should want to be a farmer or a coal miner or a day laborer. Not to say those aren't valuable industries, but they're the kind of industry that should be fixed through innovation. Which limiting immigration also limits.
I don't think manufacturing cars, high tech products, medications and many other items is below a first world worker. What can't China produce today?
I also don't think a US worker producing cloths, furniture or food is below a first world worker. What type of work do you think uneducated/unskilled US workers are equipped to do that's so important?
There was a time in the US when low-skilled labor had very strong real wages, there's no reason why that can't happen again. That was also a time when immigration was very limited and put more value on that labor.
Honestly, I don't think there should be such a thing as an "uneducated/unskilled US worker". I fundamentally believe that statement to be oxymoronic, and a symptom of capitalism. I recognize that everybody has their own strengths, and that not everyone can, for example, do steady state calculations in their head. I realize that. However, the point of education is, more or less, exposing someone to a large variety of opportunity, so that they can find their strength, and works towards that.
That's the value of a college education. That's the value of college as an institution. It's not the degree and the classes, but the sheer access to the foremost experts in virtually any field. If you really like medieval art history, you're going to be hard pressed to find someone that can teach you in real, day to day, life. But you can easily go to the art and history departments of the local university. Now you may think that medieval art history is a bullshit waste of time, but even if the only thing it accomplishes is making the kind of person that likes to see crudely drawn battles that lack any sort of perspective happy, there is value in that. In the sense that there is an inherent value to someone being happy.
This is also what actual diversity is. Lots of people think that "diversity" means a certain percentage of black people or asians. No, that's diversity to someone that doesn't understand the concept. Diversity is when you bring together groups of people that have vastly different life experiences and approach problems from a variety of ways. It adds opinions that can further understanding of the problem. It's more tools in the toolbox. Diversity is the antithesis of "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".
The statistic that continually pisses me off to no end, the one that truly causes a cold rage in my heart, is the fact that most people don't like their job. To an extent, I understand why that is. It comes down to two things: bills and lack of education. Now, assuming we implement your points (1) (6) (7) and (8), we solve both of those issues. The guy that loves nothing more than to write shitty poetry no longer has to spend a third of their life at the job factory. Maybe, given some basic social safety nets and access to people that write good poetry, Mr. Shit-poet can use his time to practice until his poetry isn't quite so shitty. Or maybe not. Maybe it stays shitty, and all that it does is make the guy writing it happy. Works for mopey teens. He doesn't need much: roof, food, pen, paper. That's 30k a year, if we're being very generous with the roof and food parts. That's a fairly small amount of money to make someone very happy. It's also an example of successful education, because someone figured out what they love. I would not consider someone that knows what they love and their purpose in life to be "uneducated".
"Uneducated" and "unskilled" is someone who is kind of drifting through life, anywhere the wind blows doesn't really matter. They don't have a goal, apart from clocking in 40 at the job factory to live another day. Or they do what their parents/pastor/authority figure told them to do, not because they want to do it, but because that's what they were told.
Personally, I shit on primary economics because I cannot think of anything more boring in life. The flip side is, someone who really likes to dig coal, or farm, or build cars, can do that by choice. People that don't want to should not be expected to do that because the market demands it. Even more so, people that do it for fun should not be relied upon to do it as efficiently as possible, so support a society. There are people that like building mining/farming rigs that can do the work cheaper, faster, and better.
Tariffs and immigration limits serve only to create artificial market demand, while limiting the diversity of opinions that can solve the problems that face society. That's how you end up with someone that's a coal miner only because daddy was a coal miner and grandpappy was a coal miner before that.
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26928569 - 09/10/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.
Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.
This is true for any dominant economic system that seeks to aggressively propagate itself.
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26928581 - 09/10/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Kryptos said: It's not really keeping the elite at bay, it's keeping the predatory tendencies of the elite in check. Nothing wrong with being one of elite. The problems start when you use your power to oppress those weaker than you.
There's nothing wrong with using your brain and money to make life better for other people. The problem is when you inherit a bunch of money and maintain it by making life worse for people.
In LOTR Saurmon's ring was not destroyed but it stuck around along with his dormant evil. Similarly, socialism and it's benefits to the exploited working class can keep evil at bay. Yet the only satisfying conclusion is to destroy the ring altogether. Banish The Elite for all eternity.
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26928614 - 09/10/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is an interesting Russian book called The Last Ringbearer. It has never been released in English, to my knowledge, due to copyright issues, but it retells the story of LOTR from the perspective of Mordor.
The perspective is not one of evil, but one of a land that is throwing off the chains of magical oppression (by the elves) in an effort to industrialize as a constitutional monarchy.
The problem with "Banish the Elite for all eternity" is that now you must devise a method to seek out and kill all people that are "elite", and then continue to destroy anyone that becomes "elite" (whatever that means).
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26928642 - 09/10/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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That sounds pretty fucking awesome. Get a fresh perspective in there.
The Elite must be the ones who exploit the working class. They are the owning class then. The ones the workers work for. Isn't this what people mean when they say Capitalism sucks, The capitalist being the man with the coin who enslaves a bunch of workers to do his or her bidding. The anti christ to a worker co-op.
Is this not the case?
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Nonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] 2
#26928667 - 09/10/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: That sounds pretty fucking awesome. Get a fresh perspective in there.
The Elite must be the ones who exploit the working class. They are the owning class then. The ones the workers work for. Isn't this what people mean when they say Capitalism sucks, The capitalist being the man with the coin who enslaves a bunch of workers to do his or her bidding. The anti christ to a worker co-op.
Is this not the case?
I don't believe that wealthy people have an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers, but I will say that our capitalist system doesn't do anything to stop wealthy people from doing so (in fact, it rewards such behavior with more capital, more power, more wealth). There's nothing evil about being wealthy, but people with absurd amounts of wealth working within a system that allows wealth to be used to exploit and oppress is an unfair combination.
Phrased as a question: Wealthy people don't have an inherent drive to exploit and oppress poor people, but if you were a wealthy person living within our current system, why wouldn't you behave that way? The problem isn't wealth: the problem is our system itself, which rewards wealthy people for using their wealth to subjugate others.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26928674 - 09/10/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: There is an interesting Russian book called The Last Ringbearer. It has never been released in English, to my knowledge, due to copyright issues, but it retells the story of LOTR from the perspective of Mordor.
I can't speak about the quality of this translation, but I did find one here. This book sounds super interesting, and I'll try to give it a read (if the translation is any good).
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Quote:
Nonagon Infinity said: I don't believe that wealthy people have an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers, but I will say that our capitalist system doesn't do anything to stop wealthy people from doing so (in fact, it rewards such behavior with more capital, more power, more wealth). There's nothing evil about being wealthy, but people with absurd amounts of wealth working within a system that allows wealth to be used to exploit and oppress is an unfair combination.
Phrased as a question: Wealthy people don't have an inherent drive to exploit and oppress poor people, but if you were a wealthy person living within our current system, why wouldn't you behave that way? The problem isn't wealth: the problem is our system itself, which rewards wealthy people for using their wealth to subjugate others.
How is there not an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers when the system rewards such behavior with more capital, power, and wealth. I mean that just makes no sense to me bro.
If you want to put a little duct tape on the problem then go right ahead obviously.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26928697 - 09/10/20 05:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think this is the best thread I've made. This discussion is an example of what I was trying to do with my UC forum back in the day. Kudos to you all
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26928754 - 09/10/20 06:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Great post, I agree with much of it but want to point out that agriculture is not an uneducated/low skill field anymore, if it ever was. Indeed, the world is sorely in need of an agricultural paradigm shift which won't be brought about without educated minds putting serious thought into the issue
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Yeetusdeetus


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] 3
#26928788 - 09/10/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wish there was an easier way to tell someone that “socialism” doesn’t have to mean unreasonably high taxes but instead that their taxes can actually go towards things that benefit them
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Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] 2
#26928798 - 09/10/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: How is there not an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers when the system rewards such behavior with more capital, power, and wealth. I mean that just makes no sense to me bro.
Exploitation and oppression isn't inherent in societies that have wealthy people. Exploitation and oppression is inherent in capitalist societies that have wealthy people.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26928818 - 09/10/20 06:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here is my view of capitalism...
First and foremost, capitalism works. It has grown the global economy into a powerhouse. Most people have a job, most people earn a salary, some succeed, a few makes it big. Capitalism gives entrepreneurs to give it a shot. Even if it fails, you can try again. It also lifted hundreds of million of people out of poverty.
It is a flawed system. You can put band aids on it whenever you need too but you'll never heal the wound. Constant governmental supervision is needed to absorb the cost of it. Which, in theory makes it an even better system because you can compensate for it's shortcomings.
The better you address the negative impacts of capitalism with socialism, the healthier you will grow your country up to a point. If you try too hard, you will hurt the country because lifting the safety net too high will prevent some of getting very rich which will reduce tax revue, which will make to safety net unaffordable.
Capitalsim and socialism is a balancing act. A very moody balancing act.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Capitalism is inherently predatory and antithetical to meritocracy despite much propaganda to the contrary. The system bakes in cumulative advantage via inherited capital. It is hard for people in general to imagine a society not centered around exploitation and rent-seeking behavior because almost everyone alive has been born and raised in nothing but. This, combined with the myth of capitalism's advantage in innovation makes it seem as though anything better is pie in the sky, magical thinking. People think this even though they can see with their own eyes the number of humans who do charitable work or giving despite meager resources of their own. Capitalism is fantastic at harnessing the power of human greed but humans aren't only greedy. People are motivated by other impulses as well and we do ourselves a disservice by elevating greed above all others. Any replacement for capitalism will have to account for and make use of greed as well but must harness the kinder behavioral traits for which humans are also known. Alternatively, we can just continue to elevate psychopaths to the top echelons of society to lord over us until they escape to Mars or whatever the end game plan is.
Sorry if that sounds unintelligible. I typed it on my phone sort of stream of consciousness style and I'm not gonna go back through and edit.
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ApostleofAzathoth
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26928831 - 09/10/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Capitalism is pretty great. Communism will be better.
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26928851 - 09/10/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Great post, I agree with much of it but want to point out that agriculture is not an uneducated/low skill field anymore, if it ever was. Indeed, the world is sorely in need of an agricultural paradigm shift which won't be brought about without educated minds putting serious thought into the issue
Agriculture is pretty low skill. Agricultural science and agricultural engineering are high skill. Of course, Someone that works in agricultural science or agricultural engineering spends their days wearing a fancy button up under a lab coat in a nice air-conditioned building in the city. Not exactly what you would imagine as "farm life".
Last time I was job hunting, I actually applied for an AgSci position in Canada, developing a hardier form of rapeseed. They didn't take me, because I don't have much of a background in BioChem or genetics. I did get to tour their facilities though, t'was a very nice lab.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26928912 - 09/10/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.
Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.
Ignoring the clear flaws in a “might makes right” argument, you realize capitalism has only been around a few hundred years, right? If the dominant system was always dominant we’d still be hunter gatherers and killing rival groups for their women and food.
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#26929032 - 09/10/20 09:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Eh, we still kill rival groups for their women and food.
We just added oil to the list.
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Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#26929070 - 09/10/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Capitalism is inherently predatory and antithetical to meritocracy despite much propaganda to the contrary. The system bakes in cumulative advantage via inherited capital.
Completely agree. Capitalism doesn't reward business owners who produce the highest quality goods, it rewards business owners who undercut smaller businesses by offering a greater volume of (often lower quality) goods at a lesser price. One of the biggest threats to a small coffee shop owner's business is a Starbucks opening down the street, and that has nothing to do with the quality of coffee that Starbucks produces. Capitalists claim that the end-goal of capitalism is the production of the highest quality goods for everyone, but the real end-goal of capitalism is achieving a monopoly, which is the exact opposite of competition. You can't have a meritocracy if you're the only one competing.
Quote:
ballsalsa said: It is hard for people in general to imagine a society not centered around exploitation and rent-seeking behavior because almost everyone alive has been born and raised in nothing but. This, combined with the myth of capitalism's advantage in innovation makes it seem as though anything better is pie in the sky, magical thinking. People think this even though they can see with their own eyes the number of humans who do charitable work or giving despite meager resources of their own.
Capitalism seems so natural that people often conflate it with human nature, and those who benefit from capitalism the most are highly interested in keeping it that way. When something is just seen as "human nature" or as "just the way the world is", it fades into the background and becomes more difficult to criticize.
Quote:
ballsalsa said: Capitalism is fantastic at harnessing the power of human greed but humans aren't only greedy. People are motivated by other impulses as well and we do ourselves a disservice by elevating greed above all others. Any replacement for capitalism will have to account for and make use of greed as well but must harness the kinder behavioral traits for which humans are also known. Alternatively, we can just continue to elevate psychopaths to the top echelons of society to lord over us until they escape to Mars or whatever the end game plan is.
If you google my username, you'll find that I'm a huge fan of King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. Their song "Mars for the Rich" echoes exactly the sentiment you are describing here, and the music fucking slams:
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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