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Patlal
You ask too many questions


Registered: 10/09/10
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Quote:
Nonagon Infinity said:
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Patlal said: So you got solutions or not?
In short, the solution I'd propose is revolution. I think the global capitalist empire we live in ought to be dismantled, and I believe that laborers all around the world should own the means of their production, which is an idea completely antithetical to capitalism.
However, I'd also like to point out that, even if I didn't have any solution to propose, this lack of a proposal does not somehow invalidate the criticisms I've put forward. So, in asking me whether I have solutions or not, are you now admitting that you agree with me? Are you now admitting that capitalism is an unjust system?
I've already said that we've known the problems of capitalism for decades. I've agreed with that long ago. Criticism towards capitalism has become a gigantic echo chamber. Everybody repeats the same arguments without proposing anything to solve the problems.
1: Admitting there is problem => Done 2: Identifying the problems => Done 3: Discussing the problems => Done 4: Offering solutions => ........Still waiting.....
All everybody has been doing is reliving step 3 like an endless groundhog day on a time loop
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Edited by Patlal (09/10/20 01:59 PM)
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Nonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
#26928357 - 09/10/20 02:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Patlal said: All everybody has been doing is reliving step 3 like an endless groundhog day on a time loop
Yet, when I offer a solution: a worker's revolution in which the laborers of the world acquire the means of their own production, you mysteriously ignore it...
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Yellow Pants


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I don't think a worker controlled economy has any momentum at all. It would need to gain traction and a livelihood before "revolution" could effectively occur. Christ how long did Bernie spew about socialized healthcare and that hardly caught on. Maybe there isn't enough demand for it. Maybe there would be for a worker controlled economy.
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Kryptos
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Soviet Union solved the problems of capitalism pretty well. Of course, this was not okay with capitalists, who proceeded to create the entire US military-industrial complex to fight against it.
That's one of the biggest problems with a non-capitalist society in the modern world. Capitalists will dump money into ensuring you fail. Then, you're either paraded around as an example of why your system is inferior, or if you successfully crack down on the capitalists, you're paraded around as an example of why your system is oppressive.
What we need is a rebellion against Supply-side Jesus.
Now, the problem with that is that if you stop spending and start saving money, capitalists simply raise your rent/medical bills to prevent you from doing so. If you don't buy their burger, they'll simply charge you the difference in the stuff that you still buy.
I've toyed with the idea of a worker's co-op, basically a small economy contained within a self-sufficient building or city block, but if you look into the history of those, they tend to get invaded by the police.
At this point, I think the best solution is guillotines.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26928419 - 09/10/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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But communism, that is Soviet Union communism, is oppressive. Its governmental takeover of the economy. As in government officials own and manage workplaces. A worker co-op is direct democracy within a working organization. There could still be markets within a co-op economy. No markets within Soviet Union communism.
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qman
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] 2
#26928421 - 09/10/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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1. Labor unions in all industries. 2. Medicare For All 3. Economic tariffs from all imports 4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations. 5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs. 6. Free college and cancel student debt. 7. Public employment for the unemployed. 8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.
All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.
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Nonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] 2
#26928422 - 09/10/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yellow Pants said: I don't think a worker controlled economy has any momentum at all. It would need to gain traction and a livelihood before "revolution" could effectively occur. Christ how long did Bernie spew about socialized healthcare and that hardly caught on. Maybe there isn't enough demand for it. Maybe there would be for a worker controlled economy.
I think you're downplaying how popular Bernie's policies actually are. First of all, the policies he's proposed for the US are actual policy in other countries. So, they are popular enough in other regions of the world to become actual policy (though maybe not in the US). Saying that socialized healthcare "hardly caught on" isn't accurate. A significant portion of the US population supported Sanders during the primary elections - he even received the majority of votes in several states. The problem isn't that his policies were unpopular. The problem was that he was branded as an extremist by the ruling class (such slander came from both Democrats and Republicans, both of which are parties that are interested in preserving capitalism). The only reason his policies looked extreme was because the policies he proposed stood in opposition to the status quo (even though, as I've mentioned, they're not really extreme in a global context, since other successful nations on Earth have adopted the same sorts of policies Sanders proposed). Another factor that made it difficult for Sanders to earn the nomination was that he was up against Joe Biden who, along with appearing more reasonable (mostly due to the fact that he didn't challenge the status-quo capitalist empire that rules us), had the celebrity factor of being Obama's VP.
I think the reason policies like the ones Sanders was proposing aren't enacted in the US is precisely because we don't live in a worker controlled economy. We live in an economy controlled by absurdly wealthy capitalists. In a system where capital is power, a wealthy business owner can use his capital to suppress a candidate who proposes policies that might dismantle the current system.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] 1
#26928441 - 09/10/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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qman said: 1. Labor unions in all industries. 2. Medicare For All 3. Economic tariffs from all imports 4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations. 5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs. 6. Free college and cancel student debt. 7. Public employment for the unemployed. 8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.
Now you're talking my language (not sure that I agree with number 4, but that's a different debate). These policies all stand in direct opposition to our oppressive capitalist system, which is precisely why capitalists have engaged in a massive propaganda campaign to create a fear of these policies. Most of the time, the criticism I see of policies like these comes down to "but that's socialism". If your biggest criticism of the above policies is simply that they aren't capitalism, then you've pretty much shown your hand.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
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Quote:
Nonagon Infinity said:
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Yellow Pants said: I don't think a worker controlled economy has any momentum at all. It would need to gain traction and a livelihood before "revolution" could effectively occur. Christ how long did Bernie spew about socialized healthcare and that hardly caught on. Maybe there isn't enough demand for it. Maybe there would be for a worker controlled economy.
I think you're downplaying how popular Bernie's policies actually are. First of all, the policies he's proposed for the US are actual policy in other countries. So, they are popular enough in other regions of the world to become actual policy (though maybe not in the US). Saying that socialized healthcare "hardly caught on" isn't accurate. A significant portion of the US population supported Sanders during the primary elections - he even received the majority of votes in several states. The problem isn't that his policies were unpopular. The problem was that he was branded as an extremist by the ruling class (such slander came from both Democrats and Republicans, both of which are parties that are interested in preserving capitalism). The only reason his policies looked extreme was because the policies he proposed stood in opposition to the status quo (even though, as I've mentioned, they're not really extreme in a global context, since other successful nations on Earth have adopted the same sorts of policies Sanders proposed). Another factor that made it difficult for Sanders to earn the nomination was that he was up against Joe Biden who, along with appearing more reasonable (mostly due to the fact that he didn't challenge the status-quo capitalist empire that rules us), had the celebrity factor of being Obama's VP.
I think the reason policies like the ones Sanders was proposing aren't enacted in the US is precisely because we don't live in a worker controlled economy. We live in an economy controlled by absurdly wealthy capitalists. In a system where capital is power, a wealthy business owner can use his capital to suppress a candidate who proposes policies that might dismantle the current system.
A predominantly worker controlled economy is the far greater achievement than a socialist paradise where the peasantry beg and beg The Elite until agreeable yet temporary measures are enacted.
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman]
#26928447 - 09/10/20 02:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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qman said: 1. Labor unions in all industries. 2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations. 5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs. 6. Free college and cancel student debt. 7. Public employment for the unemployed. 8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.
All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.
Cut those two and I'd agree. Economic protectionism breeds complacency and inefficiency. Removing immigration only promotes the same. There is absolutely no need for a first world country to have a portion of its population engaged in primary economic activities, which are inherently less valuable, and only serve to create an underclass in a society by stifling the growth of specific individuals to make them good shit-tier laborers.
Nobody should want to be a farmer or a coal miner or a day laborer. Not to say those aren't valuable industries, but they're the kind of industry that should be fixed through innovation. Which limiting immigration also limits.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
Loc: Ottawa
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman]
#26928452 - 09/10/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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qman said: 1. Labor unions in all industries. 2. Medicare For All 3. Economic tariffs from all imports 4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations. 5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs. 6. Free college and cancel student debt. 7. Public employment for the unemployed. 8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.
All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.
Now were talking solutions!
Well, more like social programs that changes nothing about capitalism but it's a great start.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
#26928465 - 09/10/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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What is the end game of the socialist paradise ? Keep the Elite at bay ?
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Nonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] 2
#26928475 - 09/10/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Patlal said:
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qman said: 1. Labor unions in all industries. 2. Medicare For All 3. Economic tariffs from all imports 4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations. 5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs. 6. Free college and cancel student debt. 7. Public employment for the unemployed. 8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.
All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.
Now were talking solutions!
Well, more like social programs that changes nothing about capitalism but it's a great start.
1. Labor unions are antithetical to capitalism, which is why wealthy capitalists engage in aggressive anti-union propaganda. 2. Medicare for all is a social program, and is also antithetical to capitalism. The capitalist solution to healthcare is to privatize it and to trust the market to regulate itself. 5. Taxing wealthy people to fund social programs is also antithetical to capitalism. Social programs are when a government provides care (this might mean healthcare, food banks, universal basic income, education, etc.) for its citizens. A capitalist would prefer that private businesses provide healthcare, food, and basic income to citizens. 6. Free college doesn't really mean it's free. It means that college is paid for by the government, which is antithetical to capitalism. Capitalists prefer that colleges are run like private businesses, whose wealthy owners collect profits from students. 7. Public employment is also antithetical to capitalism. Capitalists prefer for private businesses to have a monopoly on the employment market. 8. Capitalists believe that the government should use taxpayer money to support private businesses. Therefore, preventing bailouts for Wall Street and private industries is completely antithetical to capitalism.
Almost all of the policies qman suggested here are antithetical to capitalism, so the claim that they "change nothing about capitalism" doesn't hold any water. They directly challenge capitalism.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] 2
#26928485 - 09/10/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yellow Pants said: What is the end game of the socialist paradise ? Keep the Elite at bay ?
Keep more of the value you produce, instead of giving it to your boss and landlord. In other words, when productivity increases, your life should improve. Either through increased free time or increased number of toys.
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26928492 - 09/10/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Kryptos said:
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Yellow Pants said: What is the end game of the socialist paradise ? Keep the Elite at bay ?
Keep more of the value you produce, instead of giving it to your boss and landlord. In other words, when productivity increases, your life should improve. Either through increased free time or increased number of toys.
So keep The Elite at bay. Ok then.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know either. Enlil once said something like communism can't work because capitalism does too much to prevent it from working.
“We live under capitalism, it’s power seems inescapable. But so too did the divine right of kings.”
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Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26928505 - 09/10/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yellow Pants said: So keep The Elite at bay. Ok then.
I'd say keeping the elite at bay is a good thing.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Kryptos
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It's not really keeping the elite at bay, it's keeping the predatory tendencies of the elite in check. Nothing wrong with being one of elite. The problems start when you use your power to oppress those weaker than you.
There's nothing wrong with using your brain and money to make life better for other people. The problem is when you inherit a bunch of money and maintain it by making life worse for people.
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qman
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26928521 - 09/10/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Kryptos said:
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qman said: 1. Labor unions in all industries. 2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations. 5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs. 6. Free college and cancel student debt. 7. Public employment for the unemployed. 8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.
All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.
Cut those two and I'd agree. Economic protectionism breeds complacency and inefficiency. Removing immigration only promotes the same. There is absolutely no need for a first world country to have a portion of its population engaged in primary economic activities, which are inherently less valuable, and only serve to create an underclass in a society by stifling the growth of specific individuals to make them good shit-tier laborers.
Nobody should want to be a farmer or a coal miner or a day laborer. Not to say those aren't valuable industries, but they're the kind of industry that should be fixed through innovation. Which limiting immigration also limits.
I don't think manufacturing cars, high tech products, medications and many other items is below a first world worker. What can't China produce today?
I also don't think a US worker producing cloths, furniture or food is below a first world worker. What type of work do you think uneducated/unskilled US workers are equipped to do that's so important?
There was a time in the US when low-skilled labor had very strong real wages, there's no reason why that can't happen again. That was also a time when immigration was very limited and put more value on that labor.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] 2
#26928546 - 09/10/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Capitalism, where do you stand?
Bottom of the pyramid.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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