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Offlinethealienthatategod
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topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle?
    #26928044 - 09/10/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

hello p,s & p, i have missed posting here.

what is the reason for a deterministic and non deterministic universal function?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #26928063 - 09/10/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Determinism and indeterminism are human concepts. They are opposing perspectives on a single and whole reality. Both concepts are useful and necessary in their proper contexts. Neither is ultimate.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26928118 - 09/10/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I like the way you determined the answer.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26928124 - 09/10/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Another way to look at it is using statistics.
As DQ states this uses both polarities;
this is what casinos do:
they do not know who will win or lose on any given play or night;
but they do know, that they will make
regular profits


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26928224 - 09/10/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Determinism and indeterminism are human concepts. They are opposing perspectives on a single and whole reality. Both concepts are useful and necessary in their proper contexts. Neither is ultimate.




hi DQ, that is real and meaningful; yet does nothing to to explain the quantum nature of non determinism.

standard physics states that an infinite function, a function that never reaches a unity state, is not viable: and yet evidence of the geometrical circular shape abounds in the universe.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26928228 - 09/10/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

if you play roulette long enough, there will come an evening where your every bet wins.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #26928549 - 09/10/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Are you sure there are no complementary aspects of determinism in quantum theory?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26928609 - 09/10/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
if you play roulette long enough, there will come an evening where your every bet wins.




it ain't necessarily so. The monkey typewriter shakespeare metaphor has never seemed believable to me, just like the "we only use 10% of our brains" is false.

Casinos remained pre covid at least a very profitable business. And they are only one example. All forms of insurance likewise work due to the odds. And they also are hugely profitable.

From what I have heard physicists are no  longer bothered by wave particle duality and instead think in terms of fields.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26928676 - 09/10/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

no, i'm not sure, but it seems that determinism maybe a possible link between standard physics and quantum physics.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26928677 - 09/10/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

statistically, one should expect a certain number of remarkable coincidences to occur.  in fact, this universe requires these remarkable coincidences.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26928678 - 09/10/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
From what I have heard physicists are no  longer bothered by wave particle duality and instead think in terms of fields.





That is quite accurate. Quantum field theory is now the dominant incarnation of quantum mechanics, and it views all of reality as comprised of varying degrees of field behavior, of which particles are a manifestation, not a cause.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26928680 - 09/10/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
no, i'm not sure, but it seems that determinism maybe a possible link between standard physics and quantum physics.





Well you have things like many worlds and the ontological interpretation. How do you know they are wrong?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26928710 - 09/10/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

i do not know.  the world of my current immediate perceptions/sensations/thoughts is caused by more than the objects in 3d space.

how does an entangled particle behave when dealing with growing, geometically expanding possibilities?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26928784 - 09/10/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I have no idea. I have to suppose that, in whatever information "field" in which the entangled system operates, somehow the possibilities are enfolded in some higher space or dimension. As to how these enfolded variables have the dynamics that they do, or which possibilities are selected from the infinite, is a total mystery.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26928827 - 09/10/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the particle will be consistent until it must become a wave which presents other possibilities.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26929098 - 09/10/20 09:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
hello p,s & p, i have missed posting here.

what is the reason for a deterministic and non deterministic universal function?




The same yin and yang occurs elsewhere. We simply miss it because our language generally ignores this aspect of our experiencing.

When we become one with something self disappears.
This is the same as non resistance.

When we separate from someone or something or resist a thought or sensation,
self arises.

So self is not fixed, but dynamic.
Our language does not account for this, so this zen buddhist way of talking may sound strange.

So one could equate the resistant self to non determinism. Thus protestors have the illusion they are becoming more free. We see the same thing in disobedient 2 year olds.

So one could equate the non-resistant self to determinism, or "thy will be done" and going with the flow.

Its all just the changing wave function of self, don't be mislead by words, like non determinism and determinism.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26929113 - 09/10/20 10:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
From what I have heard physicists are no  longer bothered by wave particle duality and instead think in terms of fields.





That is quite accurate. Quantum field theory is now the dominant incarnation of quantum mechanics, and it views all of reality as comprised of varying degrees of field behavior, of which particles are a manifestation, not a cause.



Are you saying particles don't have effects?

To have an effect on something is to cause it to be such and such..


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26929174 - 09/10/20 10:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

nothing in a dream causes anything else in a dream
although it appears that there are causes in a dream;
and it is of course also true of
novels

ordinary language assumes there is only one level of reality
in Buddhism this is not the case
see for example:

"Two truths doctrine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Buddhist doctrine of the two truths (Wylie: bden pa gnyis) differentiates between two levels of satya (a Sanskrit and Pali word meaning truth or reality) in the teaching of the Buddha: the "conventional" or "provisional" (saṁvṛti) truth, and the "ultimate" (paramārtha) truth.[1]"


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26929536 - 09/11/20 08:30 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As laughingdog indicates, I would suggest that standard concepts of causality may create an illusion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26929716 - 09/11/20 10:30 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

oh no, not alternate truths!!!


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26929786 - 09/11/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:god2:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26929834 - 09/11/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would add that laughingdog is brilliant when he calls attention to multiple ontological levels. This is an insight not properly acknowledged in all sorts of arenas like physics, psychology, neuroscience, and Western thinking in general. And of course something like quantum field theory attempts to delineate levels much deeper than consensus reality where, incidentally, conventional human concepts of causality cease to have precise meaning.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26930012 - 09/11/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

places or configurations may be more descriptive than levels.

Levels implies hierarchy and hierarchy does not often fit; it introduces false assumptions in schema.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26930319 - 09/11/20 04:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

But if the levels are qualitatively different, hierarchy does not apply. Relativity is not in a hierarchical relationship with Newtonian physics, for example, but each theory applies to a different level of nature.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26930449 - 09/11/20 05:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
From what I have heard physicists are no  longer bothered by wave particle duality and instead think in terms of fields.





That is quite accurate. Quantum field theory is now the dominant incarnation of quantum mechanics, and it views all of reality as comprised of varying degrees of field behavior, of which particles are a manifestation, not a cause.



Even the notion of a particle is just a clever way to help explain the phenomenons to ourselves. Those particles are probabilities of finding a type of interaction/"interactor" in a field that we can model as a particle. 

Alan watts i think was ahead of his time in physics and no one not even he knew it.
Everything is a illusion, smoke and mirrors.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26930477 - 09/11/20 05:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:nodofunderstanding:


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Edited by The Blind Ass (09/11/20 05:57 PM)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26930505 - 09/11/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it seems both kinds of knowledge are real, but it is difficult to see the world in both ways at once.  natural human thought is an oscillation between the two.  determinate, finite, and conclusive or indeterminate, infinite and a best estimate.  why the dualistic nature of reality?  mystical ideas are true on one level, yet on a rational level they are not true at all.  how can both things be true?  they are not the same, but they are not different.  they appear to be complementary, mutually exclusive aspects of reality.

quantum computer programming is written to exclude any non deterministic solutions from possible solutions; it cuts computing time in half by following the above narrative. it then further eliminates possibilities by excluding the non probable solutions, further cutting solutions again by another magnitude. the final finite solutions are presented by verifying results via a molecular quantum bottleneck, which is, does it fit in a quantum and standard physic scenario.  but again, this does nothing to explain the quantum nature of non determinism.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26930515 - 09/11/20 06:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
From what I have heard physicists are no  longer bothered by wave particle duality and instead think in terms of fields.





That is quite accurate. Quantum field theory is now the dominant incarnation of quantum mechanics, and it views all of reality as comprised of varying degrees of field behavior, of which particles are a manifestation, not a cause.



Even the notion of a particle is just a clever way to help explain the phenomenons to ourselves. Those particles are probabilities of finding a type of interaction/"interactor" in a field that we can model as a particle. 

Alan watts i think was ahead of his time in physics and no one not even he knew it.
Everything is a illusion, smoke and mirrors.




if space has an infinite number of dimensions, there is no somewhere to begin until a point is fixed by a will - direction introduced for its own convenience, as we know there is no way to detect absolute motion in empty space.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26930564 - 09/11/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I posit that the singularity you are looking for in this case is the thing thats reading this.

The point is fixed by you.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26930570 - 09/11/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Determinism and indeterminism are human concepts. They are opposing perspectives on a single and whole reality. Both concepts are useful and necessary in their proper contexts. Neither is ultimate.



Neato.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26930573 - 09/11/20 06:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
But if the levels are qualitatively different, hierarchy does not apply. Relativity is not in a hierarchical relationship with Newtonian physics, for example, but each theory applies to a different level of nature.



if it is not a case of collecting related matters into a venn diagram on one plane or level or diagram
then it is a matter of which wraps which as in containment - like geologic layers - in such cases level maps to a consistent time related geologic idea.

with other ideas, we should be precise in the use of the terms else they wash away clarity rather than revealing new truths.

levels in the 3 dimensional world are like floors in your building - there are no higher levels of meaning, only different meanings, categories, classes, or something like that UNLESS hierarchy is involved or being alluded to but kept esoteric. (some holdover from Vatican decrees, or secret societies all happy to be operating on a different level - intrinsically hierarchically more priviledged - more self important)

Most aspects of relativity are dealt with using a different set of problems than those that are dealt with using classical Newtonian theory. One day, however, the falling apple will be snapped up using relativistic transformations to teleport it onto a plate before it hits anyone's head. It is the same level of apple idea.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: pineninja]
    #26930580 - 09/11/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
I posit that the singularity you are looking for in this case is the thing thats reading this.

The point is fixed by you.




can everything be regarded as a single definite thing?


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26930640 - 09/11/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The only thing I can make myself believe is myself and that's as definitive as it get.

Everything else is just a solids guess.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26931006 - 09/12/20 12:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
hello p,s & p, i have missed posting here.

what is the reason for a deterministic and non deterministic universal function?




Chaos, and cycles of negative and normal entropy.

Implicit realities are real for us, but not rational or existent explicitly.

Explicit realities are the world and cosmos around us. A chaotic beauty, while we live on our relative heaven in this tesselating field.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: pineninja]
    #26931256 - 09/12/20 06:00 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
The only thing I can make myself believe is myself and that's as definitive as it get.

Everything else is just a solids guess.




will you know yourself if you bumped up against it?


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26931385 - 09/12/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The concepts of determinism and indeterminism come from a perception of reality.  Determinism being that which must happen, indeterminism being that which doesn't.  Humanness aside I think all is determined.  There is a great hidden determinism underlying every manifestation and absence. 

The higher order is another part of the illusion of indeterminism.  The mysterious is mysterious to us.  God knows what it is doing.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26931799 - 09/12/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
The only thing I can make myself believe is myself and that's as definitive as it get.

Everything else is just a solids guess.




will you know yourself if you bumped up against it?




This morning awareness dawned and found everything but a me.  In the afternoon it found a me and it was up to no good, but it was an evil born of ignorance, so even that and this moral judgement are good for nothing.  Tonight I’ll go back to not knowing a thing.  Maybe awareness does or doesn’t dawn again anew tomorrow or maybe its always been primordial, either way, there are 10,000 things for reality to do for me to begin to appear - and if or when I do appear - I appear unable to say anything useful at all.  Why it conjures me at all...I take deep delight in not knowing.  I’m training to master being good for nothing.


--------------------
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Edited by The Blind Ass (09/12/20 01:45 PM)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26931863 - 09/12/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it seems, humans can't live without forgetting anymore than they can live without remembering.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26931867 - 09/12/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Indeedlydo.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26931943 - 09/12/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
it seems, humans can't live without forgetting anymore than they can live without remembering.



make sense
much doesn't


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26931986 - 09/12/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
make sense
much doesn't




if something contradicts your experiences and expectations, does that mean it doesn’t make sense?

Quote:

“Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.”




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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #26932050 - 09/12/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
The only thing I can make myself believe is myself and that's as definitive as it get.

Everything else is just a solids guess.




will you know yourself if you bumped up against it?




Is math a construct.
Or was it always there to find.
Strangely enough the answer is love
The one thing it cant define.

This transcendental geometry.
That words cannot possibly convey.
Deeper than fundamentally
It's both the observer...and the day.

An exploration of an unassailable self.
The fingers with which we feel.
A mathematical pinch is just.
Proving ourselves to be real.

It hurts because we are the same.
Both the math and the mind.
Take the mask of separateness away.
You may be surprised by which answer you find.




You square the circle when you realise they are both you.

Spin a cube quickly enough and it becomes a ball.
Slow a ball down enough and it'll once again become a cube.
It all depends on your needs at that particular moment.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26932093 - 09/12/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Re: "Strangely enough the answer is love"

In a state of total oneness, "love" has no meaning.
In fact in a state of total oneness,  no meanings are possible.

All meaning depends on both contrast and context, both of which are forms of

differentiation & not of oneness,( in which by definition there are not only no boundaries within, but which also has no outer boundary).

You can't have your cake & eat it to.

Also balls do not turn into cubes just because they aren't rotating, as we all, already know.


Edited by laughingdog (09/12/20 04:22 PM)


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26932179 - 09/12/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What is a state of total oneness?  Am I or you in such a state.  High level of confusion here.

Perhaps identification is the operative word.  I identify with oneness, everything, and lose myself in such a state.  Yet in such a state love would take on new and improved meaning, no?  I think it would laughingdog, I think it would. 


Edited by Yellow Pants (09/12/20 05:19 PM)


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26932202 - 09/12/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: "Strangely enough the answer is love"

In a state of total oneness, "love" has no meaning.
In fact in a state of total oneness,  no meanings are possible.

All meaning depends on both contrast and context, both of which are forms of

differentiation & not of oneness,( in which by definition there are not only no boundaries within, but which also has no outer boundary).

You can't have your cake & eat it to.

Also balls do not turn into cubes just because they aren't rotating, as we all, already know.




When the abstract is to be explained sensibly we will always have "definition" issues....so oneloveness.

Mathematically speaking they break balls into squares for the most accurate (as close as they can get) measurement.
Depending on whether you want a game of b ball or an accurate measurement you have many shapes as options.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26932207 - 09/12/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Unity basically.  Yeah we’re all & all things are primordially bound.  Realization of this isn’t becoming one with the universe, it’s recognizing you and everyone and everything else always was and always will be.  It’s not like one second you’re  “one with” and then suddenly the next second you are not part of that unity.  Energy stuff thingynes.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26932218 - 09/12/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Unity basically.  Yeah we’re all & all things are primordially bound.  Realization of this isn’t becoming one with the universe, it’s recognizing you and everyone and everything else always was and always will.  Energy stuff thingynes.




Identification seems to be the operative word.  In this identification I would place 20 dollars that love would then take on new meaning rather than being dissolved as laughingdog points out.  He is in the wrong here.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26932225 - 09/12/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Rather the love comes into play before and or after the “thing” he points to.

Or maybe I’m just a light weight and this one IPA is making me speak more rubbish than usual.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26932231 - 09/12/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As in it's always there?  Differentiation being the break from it.  Well this is what I am saying.  Identification in oneness as creating new and improved meanings regarding love relative to the differentiation.  Otherwise oneness is akin to a night of heavy drinking.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26932236 - 09/12/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I’ll come back and parlay when I’m sober.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26932244 - 09/12/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Drinking is a social activity.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26932326 - 09/12/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
make sense
much doesn't




if something contradicts your experiences and expectations, does that mean it doesn’t make sense?

Quote:

“Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.”






It was a pleasing statement for me to read from you.
I could parse it into my framework
in that way it was a relief, an island of familiarity - even if it was the familiarity of paradox.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26932426 - 09/12/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
It was a pleasing statement for me to read from you.
I could parse it into my framework
in that way it was a relief, an island of familiarity - even if it was the familiarity of paradox.




like an enigma wrapped in a mystery, it's all so ambigiously clear!


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26932876 - 09/13/20 05:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you might say so


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26940009 - 09/17/20 01:27 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Reality is NOT a function of cause and effect.

The idea of cause and effect ultimately relegates all of reality to the power of time…an abstract concept which cannot be argued to possess any causal force over anything at all, but only retains relevance as a means by which man cognitively organizes his environment for the purpose of survival. 

Try to explain time without a reference to the material universe.  I assure you it is impossible.  You cannot even make a mathematical argument.  For as soon as YOU open your mouth or tap on your keyboard or pen your letter or pick up your can and string you have already conceded the contrary argument.  YOU, a material agent, are required to explain time.  YOU must exist first, before time can have any rational meaning.  Thus, the material reality which we attempt to argue is caused by time is a prerequisite for the relevant meaning of the concept altogether.

It isn’t a debate then about whether existence causes consciousness or consciousness causes existence, or which comes first. 

There can be no rational debate because once we inject “cause” into the argument we have conceded a faulty determinist philosophy; that is, we and everything else are all a function of the unseen and unknowable force of time.  Which makes anything we argue moot by definition.


With respect to the determinative power of causality, I submit that there is none.  In support of this assertion I have developed the following explication, which reveals the nullifying contradiction of “cause and effect” when it is extracted from its purely conceptual  context:

There can be no cause qua cause until after  the effect is manifest. For what is a cause without an effect? It is certainly not a cause. For if a cause has not actually caused anything, then it is not a cause by definition.  In this way, then, anything which we would qualify as cause is categorically dependent for its rational and efficacious definition as a “cause” upon the effect.

Furthermore, we must also assert that there is no effect then which can exist except utterly independent of the cause. For unless the effect exists independently of the cause, it must be considered a direct and absolute function of the cause.  But if it is a direct and absolute function of the cause, then the distinction is eliminated, which then obliterates the very root essence of “cause and effect” in the first place, relegating it to irrelevance, and thus nonexistence…for that which is existentially irrelevant contradicts itself right out of existence.

Speaking of contradiction, note the following:

By the previous logic, cause and effect, being entirely distinct from one another, must therefore have entirely autonomous, separate existence already, prior to the confluence which is defined as “cause and effect” qua “cause and effect”.  In other words, there can be no effect unless the effect is an effect alone, absent any cause, before any cause manifests itself as a cause. Which then makes, by logical extension, the cause only a cause if it itself exists as such autonomously, absent the effect, before any effect manifests itself as an effect. In other words, each one must exist already as a prerequisite for “cause and effect” to  meet any sort of rationally consistent criteria in order to be defined as such: the effect is an effect prior to the cause causing it; and the cause is a cause prior to it actually having caused anything.

The cause needs the effect to be defined as the cause; and the effect needs the cause to be defined as an effect. But the effect cannot be a direct function of the cause without eliminating the distinction; and the cause cannot be given its absolute meaning and relevancy by the effect without likewise eliminating the distinction. But if the effect exists as the effect utterly independent of the cause, and the cause exists as the cause utterly independent of the effect, then what we assert is that an effect doesn’t actually require a cause to be an effect, and a cause doesn’t actually require an effect to be a cause.  Which…destroys the definitions of both, nullifying their “autonomous”, “independent” existence.

The point is that no matter from which angle approach it, you inevitably run into an impenetrable wall of contradiction.

And so it goes when we attempt to incorporate mutually exclusive conceptual abstractions into the non-abstract material universe of actual objects by assuming and imagining that they are likewise, themselves, in possession of a material, actual essence.

The solution to reconciling the contradictions now becomes apparent. We must not consider cause and effect an actual, catalyzing causal force…like we spuriously do with the laws of physics when we describe them as “governing”.  We must recognize cause and effect for what it really is: a concept human beings use to describe the relative movement of objects in the environment, objects which are fundamentally neither caused nor effected but are rooted in the infinity of their own absolute and infinitely singular material essence, in whatever form it happens to be observed, and as a function of whatever relative context in which it happens to be observed.

Indeed–and in conclusion–the presence of relativity in object interactions precludes any actual  (materially “existent”, for lack of a better term) cause and effect; yet it necessitates a conceptual cause and effect that the self-aware agent engages as a means to define and identify both what an object is, and how it is observed (i.e. its position relative to the observer at any given moment).


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26940421 - 09/17/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What is the difference between contradiction and paradox?

If a tree falls in the forest and a person is standing under it they get squashed.  Now there's a decent chance I understand the basics of what you're saying.  You are saying that it's not rational to say that the tree falling and the person getting squashed are in both a cause and effect process because if that were true then the cause and effect process would be one, singular movement assuming the effect had to happen.  Ok, fine.  But also, if I make the distinction between a "tree" and a "person" then that same process of the tree falling on the person is best expressed as a cause (tree falling) and the effect (person squashed).  How is this contradictory and not paradoxical?


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26941015 - 09/17/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

if a light is on, and one flips a switch to turn it off, is that an indication that the present alters the past?


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #26941024 - 09/17/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Cause and effect don't rely on time. Tje big bang happened because a conscious observer could exist in it. Universes unable to support consciousness in essence don't exist. So every time life happens it's reverse causality. At some point nothing split apart into negative and positive something and eventually life happened to observe itself.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26941093 - 09/17/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

what if, an ai sent a probe back in time, to see how their probe data, when sent back would affect the past, our present and recorded in our past?  wait, what!?


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26941512 - 09/17/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Space and points.. add them up and ypu have dimensions

Straight and curved lines are made up of a finite sets of points..

To know how to count the points brings good fortune..

Atoms perhaps?

But what are sub atomic particles?


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26941821 - 09/18/20 06:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

maybe we need an appreciation thread to the alienthatategod and burped too much gas.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26942308 - 09/18/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Cause and effect don't rely on time. Tje big bang happened because a conscious observer could exist in it. Universes unable to support consciousness in essence don't exist. So every time life happens it's reverse causality. At some point nothing split apart into negative and positive something and eventually life happened to observe itself.




Hm no I'm going to disagree with that.  The universe isn't existent due to sentient consciousness.  Yes, without sentient consciousness such a universe wouldn't have an experiencer within it.  It may give new meaning to what constitutes a universe from the perspective of a non-local force that exists outside of it.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26942441 - 09/18/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Atoms and molecules are not real things. They're observations that's as real as they get.
Every particle in the world/universe fits into an infinitesimally small point called your mind.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta] * 2
    #26942457 - 09/18/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

For instance if humans find another universe exists with no conscious observers in it. Then it still exists in the framework of our own universe. Where our universe is just like one tree in a forest. We think our tree is the entire universe but its the multiverse thats our universe.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26942511 - 09/18/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

please do,
amazingly some people are completely full of crap.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26942526 - 09/18/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Atoms and molecules are not real things. They're observations that's as real as they get.
Every particle in the world/universe fits into an infinitesimally small point called your mind.





So a molecule or a chair for that matter does not have any existence separate from the conscious experience you have of it?

I know that's as real as they get for you or me but I don't think that's where the limits of reality, any reality, stops.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26942534 - 09/18/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
maybe we need an appreciation thread to the alienthatategod and burped too much gas.




although some seem to enjoy it, rectal inflation is lethal!


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26942559 - 09/18/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I wondered who read The Onion.



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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26942580 - 09/18/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

its the equivalent of the tree falling in the woods dilemma for physicists -

it's impossible for the mutually interacting perspectives that define space to make views of themselves that are NOTHING.

for space to be absent of any object, it would have to be fully outside of the system of the interacting perspectives.

if you were to reduce what is possible to nothing, what is left is the inverse of infinite limitations.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26942811 - 09/18/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

So is space absent of any object without interjecting perspectives? 

A dirt road doesn't have a perspective then? It becomes nothingness without an interjecting perspective.  :nonono:


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26943652 - 09/19/20 07:23 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

yes, it appears that reality is fully contingent on perspective.

is consciousness or energy fundamental?  or are they one whole?

from a higher dimensional information state, there is no division in the distinction between physical and non-physical.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26943750 - 09/19/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

How can you think of consciousness in the same class as energy and matter if you have no definition for consciousness?

is this a trinity for you? why?


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26943770 - 09/19/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Consciousness is all that exists. It makes big bangs. It makes particles. Sunrises and sunsets. A planet to stand on. A body that perceives physics in order to have a fruitful experience. We think the dream is real and thus we are the conscious observer. And then we think further well who's experiencing my experience. Me of course but where am I. In my body of course. Somewhere between the ears and behind the eyes probably, right kind of feels that way. There's no one observing the observations. All that exist is the observer. And that observer is everything including things "outside themselves"


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26943857 - 09/19/20 10:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Rigpa & Maha Ati.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26943910 - 09/19/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

to articulate the answer to such a question, we would first need to be able to grasp any difference between consciousness and energy and matter.

space and matter are continuous as they are just different aspects of a higher order.

each point of consciousness represents a seemingly infinite, although finite probable outcome to its own unique reality.

different qualities of consciousness can be defined by unique frequencies, that have distinctive channel capacities.

the greater the capacity for a perspective to communicate signals, the more information it will transfer. language and understanding are limiting here as this could take place at a cellular, organ, body, galaxy...etc perspective.

reality is only physical or non-physical relative to perspective of the observer.  we are only conscious of the material surroundings that we are aware of.  in this sense, the subjective first person experience and perspective of the world is an illusion, and by illusion i mean, the difference between what we perceive and what we see.  in this sense, does consciousness even really exist?  also, in this sense, if consciousness doesn’t exist, then it can’t be defined by physical and material terminology.  what we imagine or conceive to be our first-person perception versus the world of “out there” is ultimately an unreal distinction.

i just woke up from a lucid dream or i caught myself inbetween my lucid awareness in the dream and the feeling of my body in my bed.  i wasn't able to keep enough awareness in the dream, and i lost control of my body in the dream and was spinning in circles. as i woke up/and then almost fell back into the dream - my body vibrations were so intense - when this happens, i think there is an earthquake happening in this reality every time.  i am literally just a bunch of vibrations at this point.  thought i would share this, as i am just coming out of this experience, and it relates to the consciousness/energy topic.


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26944007 - 09/19/20 12:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would say things happen in consciousness.  Consciousness being attributed to the dark abyss where everything arises from.  It is the negative to the positive that is substance.  Our Sun for example has it's own substance.  To assert that it's existence depends on the existence of a perceiving entity makes no sense to me.  I like to think I am open for persuasion however.  The Sun therefore can be perceived by a perceiving entity to whatever extent that entity can perceive things that have substance.

Consciousness as the awareness of substance.  Awareness not as an actual thing.  Simply the presence surrounding the substance.  :shrug:


Edited by Yellow Pants (09/19/20 12:33 PM)


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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26944135 - 09/19/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

A, by the time you write this
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:...
each point of consciousness represents a seemingly infinite, although finite probable outcome to its own unique reality.
...



you have lost your audience, because I have never seen a point of consciousness, or a definition of one. What do you mean b a point of consciousness?


and Yellow, when you say this
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
...It is the negative to the positive that is substance...



Are you forgetting that this is the definition of empty space.


Naturally people develop their own cosmologies that fill in for what is not yet understood.

It helps to use words with consistent meaning, and not to use words that mean nothing at all, or words which have become idiosyncratic nicknames for personal psychedelic teddy bears.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26944194 - 09/19/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
A, by the time you write this
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:...
each point of consciousness represents a seemingly infinite, although finite probable outcome to its own unique reality.
...



you have lost your audience, because I have never seen a point of consciousness, or a definition of one. What do you mean b a point of consciousness?


and Yellow, when you say this
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
...It is the negative to the positive that is substance...



Are you forgetting that this is the definition of empty space.


Naturally people develop their own cosmologies that fill in for what is not yet understood.

It helps to use words with consistent meaning, and not to use words that mean nothing at all, or words which have become idiosyncratic nicknames for personal psychedelic teddy bears.




i apologize for my liguistic incompetance, but, explaining something thats seemingly infinite can be crude, although there are numerous examples within mathematics.

take pi for instance, an infinite (endless) non-repeating numeral, that can be envisioned by a finite number of points along the tangent to the curve.

each point representing a seemingless infinite although finite probable outcome to its unique reality.

of course, trying to use language to talk about something that doesn't even exist in the materalist sense is constraining!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26944268 - 09/19/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

then you are not saying that consciousness is the third item in a trinity that is based upon understanding the duo of matter and energy;
because we were not talking about math and the circle here.

If something is so real that it stands with matter (composed of particles, and regularly encountered in everything we see and do)  and energy (composed of waves, and regularly used to make machines do work) then you must be able to get a grip on it if you want to say something meaningful.

switching the topic to pi is not going to slice it.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26944316 - 09/19/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it is principally via language that humans try to make sense of the world.  language emphasizes constraint and subjection.  trying to delineate a point in the abstract, is like pinning an invisible thumbtack into a cloud.

we make distinctions between matter and energy, but they are the same thing. we create distinctions between the two, because we don't actually know what either is, and our perception indicates a division.

all boundaries are only defined by seemingly evident, and approximate and arbitrary confines.  these curtains restrict portions within a system, as well as define discrete systems.

we only distinguish the physical from the metaphysical because we believe we observe an apparent separation.  being given possession of a material frame, that acts as an enclosed pen, does nothing but further this apparent separation.

i brought up the circle, because, the circle is an indeterminate geometrical function with an infinite pi parameter. a best estimate solution.  what humans typically conceive as consciousness is nonsense, it doesn't exist in any material sense, just like pi!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26944508 - 09/19/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

This is not about what people conceive of as consciousness it is about what you conceive of it.

I am trying to get at your previous references that the universe is made of 3 things one of which is consciousness, and your more elaborate dialog that subtends from points of consciousness which you did not define.

I will admit that you can discuss unknowns, but there is a limit to how many unknows (undefined words/ideas) a paragraph or page can bear before assuming the status of word salad.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: topography from the higher dimensions - what does it mean to square the circle? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26944557 - 09/19/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

is there a rgv dictionary that i can purchase?  i think a picture book would probably be best/most helpful for me.

the word point seems to suggest that it's the culmination of something -

to reach a climax, there must be development -

to have development there must be a process of experience -

and that process needs an observer for it to take place.

what came first, the observer or the point?

a point of view is literally the fabric of reality.  reality itself is based on points of view.  reality is what's real in each moment of time, but this also means that time in the sense of causation is fundamental.  we can say that many partially partial viewpoints define a single universe.  the question of is reality beheld in the observer or the observed? - is  just a question of "is reality a whole?"


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