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qman
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] 2
#26925050 - 09/08/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
The best one's are at least 50 years old at this point. The one's today are few and far between, capitalists aren't big fans of competition.
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Nonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] 2
#26925095 - 09/08/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
For every "rags to riches" story, there are thousands of "rags to rags" stories. The amount of people who are born into poverty and live their entire lives without ever escaping poverty vastly outnumber the people who are born into poverty and become wealthy.
The fact that a minority of people are able to escape poverty does not justify a system that systematically traps millions of people in poverty.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26925117 - 09/08/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
Why do you think the US media...
Not everything is about the US.
Quote:
Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
For every "rags to riches" story, there are thousands of "rags to rags" stories. The amount of people who are born into poverty and live their entire lives without ever escaping poverty vastly outnumber the people who are born into poverty and become wealthy.
The fact that a minority of people are able to escape poverty does not justify a system that systematically traps millions of people in poverty.
Everybody can't all be successful. Life isn't fair and genetics either.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
It’s because class mobility in this country is practically nonexistent.
Again, not everything is about the US. Most modern countries help the poor go from rags to riches. It's great for the economy. Why the US doesn't do it, I couldn't tell you.
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] 1
#26925214 - 09/08/20 07:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The US doesn't do it because we don't do commie things like "basic healthcare" and "basic social safety nets".
Tying healthcare to your job, and removing every social net possible is how you make taking risks extremely costly, and nobody wants to deal with competition.
The flip side is, tying your retirement to the stock market means that rich people don't have to risk their own money when they invest, because there is a large pool of nobodies that buffer their losses with investments in their retirement.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26925266 - 09/08/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: The US doesn't do it because we don't do commie things like "basic healthcare" and "basic social safety nets".
Tying healthcare to your job, and removing every social net possible is how you make taking risks extremely costly, and nobody wants to deal with competition.
The flip side is, tying your retirement to the stock market means that rich people don't have to risk their own money when they invest, because there is a large pool of nobodies that buffer their losses with investments in their retirement.
Undercut all the rich people and make them pay for incentives to the poor. That is what gives the poor a chance in Canada to make it to mid class. It works wonders too.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
#26925273 - 09/08/20 08:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is that capitalism?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Nonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] 2
#26925302 - 09/08/20 08:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: Everybody can't all be successful. Life isn't fair and genetics either.
You're creating a false dichotomy, Patlal, which is a logical fallacy. The rejection of capitalism does not somehow imply a system in which everyone is successful. There are shades of grey between modern capitalism and "everyone is rich".
Besides, I didn't criticize capitalism for not allowing everyone to be successful. I criticized capitalism for being extremely oppressive to poor people. There may be economic systems which, while still allowing for variance in wealth (i.e., some are wealthy, some are not), are not as oppressive towards poor people.
I'd also like to point out that treating social hierarchies (whether economic or genetic) as somehow sacred, essential, or just as a "law of nature" is a fascist belief. Fascists are obsessed with hierarchy.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] 3
#26925880 - 09/09/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
Why do you think the US media...
Not everything is about the US.
Quote:
Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
For every "rags to riches" story, there are thousands of "rags to rags" stories. The amount of people who are born into poverty and live their entire lives without ever escaping poverty vastly outnumber the people who are born into poverty and become wealthy.
The fact that a minority of people are able to escape poverty does not justify a system that systematically traps millions of people in poverty.
Everybody can't all be successful. Life isn't fair and genetics either.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Patlal said: And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.
It’s because class mobility in this country is practically nonexistent.
Again, not everything is about the US. Most modern countries help the poor go from rags to riches. It's great for the economy. Why the US doesn't do it, I couldn't tell you.
The degree to which other nations have better class mobility is directly because of how LESS capitalist they are relative to America.
If capitalism was the best way to go from rags to riches then Indonesia or Singapore would have the largest middle class in the world. But they don’t.
The labor movement and socialism are why capitalism has been smoothed out to allow some modicum of social democracy, alleviating the burdens of poverty.
Praising capitalism for the standard of living that’s been a direct result of stifling capitalism is like congratulating police for killing less people because city council made them wear body cameras.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26925951 - 09/09/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Dont know much about India's government...are they capialist?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/07/12/report-india-lifted-271-million-people-out-of-poverty-in-a-decade-infographic/amp/
The United Nations Development Programme has released its 2019 Multidimensional Poverty Index which highlights the number of people around the world experiencing poverty at regional, national and subnational levels. The term “multidimensional poverty” goes a step further than simply focusing on a lack of finances. It encompasses other factors such as poor health or malnutrition, lack of clean water or electricity, poor quality of work and limited education access in order to provide a broader picture of poverty’s true reality. The index found that across 101 countries, 1.3 billion – 23% – are multidimensionally poor with half that number aged under 18.
Despite those grim figures, some countries are successfully tackling multidimensional poverty and India is the most notable example. The report found that over 640 million people across India were in multidimensional poverty in 2005/2006 and that fell steeply to slightly more than 365.55 million by 2016/2017 – an impressive reduction of 271 million. Neighboring Bangladesh also made strides in reducing its poverty numbers with a reduction of 19 million between 2004 and 2014.
In recent years, India has embarked on several ambitious programs aimed at improving living standard such as improving electricity access and extending sanitation coverage. According to the World Bank, 70% of the population had electricity access in 2007 and that increased to 93% by 2017. Before Prime Minister Narendra Modi came to power, just under 40% of the Indian population had access to a household toilet. He vowed to change that and billions of dollars were invested in improving sanitation under the Swachh Bharat Abhiyan (“Clean India”) campaign which started in October 2014. Today, India’s Ministry of Drinking Water and Sanitation states that basic sanitation coverage across the country has increased to 99.45% as of July 2019.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#26926420 - 09/09/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let's put it this way:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: In recent years, India has embarked on several ambitious programs aimed at improving living standard such as improving electricity access and extending sanitation coverage. According to the World Bank, 70% of the population had electricity access in 2007 and that increased to 93% by 2017. Before Prime Minister Narendra Modi came to power, just under 40% of the Indian population had access to a household toilet. He vowed to change that and billions of dollars were invested in improving sanitation under the Swachh Bharat Abhiyan (“Clean India”) campaign which started in October 2014. Today, India’s Ministry of Drinking Water and Sanitation states that basic sanitation coverage across the country has increased to 99.45% as of July 2019.
This entire paragraph is an example of explicitly not capitalism. Capitalism didn't solve those problems, the government stepping in and funding infrastructure did. Not exactly "free enterprise".
Interestingly, this is also why rural US has electricity and phone service. The government stepped in and funded it in the 1960s. Often through additional taxes which show up on your electric and phone bill. Like the USF (Universal Service Fees) tax that's at the bottom of your phone bill!
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] 2
#26926863 - 09/09/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Another service not strictly related to capitalism that I like is running water. Socialized water.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Another service not strictly related to capitalism that I like is running water. Socialized water.
Fucking Commie.
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] 5
#26927064 - 09/09/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
#26927085 - 09/09/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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How many jobs did Clean India create? % of government contracts awarded to how many corporations in India? There are no similarities?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (09/09/20 08:11 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26927093 - 09/09/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Whatever poli term (welfare state), my point was . more about the 200 million out of poverty. Impressive.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#26927123 - 09/09/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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From my limited research, it appears that the majority of the project was done by government giving people money to build their own sanitation networks, as well as people being employed directly by the government. A minority of the funds was used for corporate initiatives.
Reminds me of the tuberculosis quarantine houses during the Great Depression. Used to be, the US government would hire young men that were out of work, provide them with materials, and pay them a decent wage to throw up quarantine shacks in people's yards when a case was found that could not be isolated from the rest of the family.
Nowadays, the US government is more like "good luck, don't forget funerals are expensive lol".
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26927152 - 09/09/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Seems like thats the line of thinking our governemnt desperately needs now. We dont have a similar stat in the ballpark.
When I die, I want to be chummed and dumped in the ocean.....so cost of woodchipper.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Mycolorado
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26927161 - 09/09/20 08:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#26927247 - 09/09/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Would a government be able to sell a $1 burger or put the latest tech in our hands? I dont think so.
Would there be less factory farming, less water wasted on raising unnecessary amounts of livestock, and less damage to the environment from the methane produced by cows if we didn't believe that $1 burgers were such a great deal? Absolutely.
Would there be less exploitation of child workers overseas, greater abundance of copper, and less exploitation of underpaid foreign workers who do physical labor for about 18 hours per day in factories where they literally have nets to prevent workers from committing suicide if we didn't believe that having the latest iPhone was a necessity? Absolutely.
Indeed, capitalism provides us with $1 burgers and the latest technology at an affordable price, but at what cost?
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
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SirTripAlot
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There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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