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OfflineMcDominator
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Registered: 08/29/19
Posts: 270
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
How much is too much therapeutically?
    #26913427 - 09/02/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm curious to see what people say. I'm not expecting a solid answer as I know this is extremely subjective.

In your opinion, how many grams of shrooms, or what level of a trip, is beyond the point of being therapeutic?

I'll venture a guess that the general tone is: the sky is the limit and it depends where you are in the healing process, but I'm just curious to see what others say and want to spark off some cool discussion :smile:


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I'm here to learn. I'm also willing to help. If I'm wrong on something, please call me out. I am not resistant to new information, but I always carry a healthy dose of skepticism.


“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”

-Albert Einstein


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Offlinerustygrape
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Re: How much is too much therapeutically? [Re: McDominator]
    #26925320 - 09/08/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

IMO it's not therapeutic when you get pushed so far off the deep end that when you come to there's no way of integrating it into day to day experience. ur just left with wtf feels and if you are insane


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
Re: How much is too much therapeutically? [Re: McDominator]
    #26926102 - 09/09/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The sky is the limit with respect to inter-individual differences.

I think each person using psilocybin therapeutically would need to do a thorough assessment of their personality, psychological conditions, culture, etc. before something like this could be determined (or better yet work with a licensed clinician to assess this). I think many people with little psychedelic experience would not benefit as much from higher doses at first as it could overwhelm them and a lot of therapeutic effects come from the clarity provided by psychedelics. However, for many people what they really need is a profound reality-shattering experience to elicit lasting personal growth/personality change.

This question really is hard to answer for everyone... but for myself, I'm finding larger doses more therapeutic as they push me deeper into myself. I don't think I could have handled that when I was younger as it would have forced me to look at too much at once; working through my problems one at a time was very beneficial to me in my opinion.

The other thing to consider is that some people's toxic behaviours or cognitions act as a protective mechanism they need to protect their safety or identity until other healing occurs in other aspects of their personality or life in general. A large dose of psilocybin may break down these "psychological safety mechanisms" by inhibiting the ego. Although this could be seen as an inevitable part of healing, the timing is key and psychedelics may initiate this at a harmful time.

So yeah, in my opinion it depends who is taking them, their personality, the mental & spiritual work they have/are doing, etc. :tongue2:


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Edited by Rhizomorph (09/09/20 10:50 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How much is too much therapeutically? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #26926260 - 09/09/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Any amount can be good but set and setting is the maker or breaker of therapeutic potential.

On very hi doses eg. the client will recover enhanced consciousness several times from a series of blackouts. This can be conducive to developing trust.

On a reasonably hi dose, some visualizations can be very easy, guided trips are possible. blackout is unlikely.

On moderate doses, physical and mental integrity can be enhanced in almost any activity. Awareness can be expanded to good benefits.

On micro-doses, self treatment can proceed.


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OfflineMcDominator
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Registered: 08/29/19
Posts: 270
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: How much is too much therapeutically? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26926906 - 09/09/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
I think many people with little psychedelic experience would not benefit as much from higher doses at first as it could overwhelm them and a lot of therapeutic effects come from the clarity provided by psychedelics. However, for many people what they really need is a profound reality-shattering experience to elicit lasting personal growth/personality change.




Yesssss. This was my thought exactly. I use smaller doses (1.5-2.5g) with people to suss out the issues and get a feel for the headspace. Then bigger doses to deep dive into the issues. But if you go too deep, and off the deep end as rustygrape mentioned and you sometimes get something out of it, but other times you just feel like you have mild psychosis for a while :crazy2:

Good stuff. Glad to see you guys seem to line up with my thinking. For my first trips I was sold APE unbeknownst to me at the time and was having like 5g trips without realizing it. Those initial trips were me in a tailspin and unable to make heads or tails of the mess that was my life. I totally agree with starting slow with most people.




Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Any amount can be good but set and setting is the maker or breaker of therapeutic potential.

On very hi doses eg. the client will recover enhanced consciousness several times from a series of blackouts. This can be conducive to developing trust.

On a reasonably hi dose, some visualizations can be very easy, guided trips are possible. blackout is unlikely.

On moderate doses, physical and mental integrity can be enhanced in almost any activity. Awareness can be expanded to good benefits.

On micro-doses, self treatment can proceed.




Are you a therapist? Very interesting insights. I blacked out once on what I thought was 2.6g that turned out to be APE. Pretty sure I had a panic attack, literally thought I was dying. I realize now that it was way too early for me to be doing that much. Now that I have a handle on a lot of issues, I've vouched never to go below 3.5g again on regular strength cubes and thinking about going up to 5. It's no longer of use to me to go on these lower doses, the issues I need to work on now are out of reach for those doses.


--------------------
I'm here to learn. I'm also willing to help. If I'm wrong on something, please call me out. I am not resistant to new information, but I always carry a healthy dose of skepticism.


“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”

-Albert Einstein


Edited by McDominator (09/10/20 08:49 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: How much is too much therapeutically? [Re: McDominator]
    #26928240 - 09/10/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

i am not a therapist sorry.
are you in need of a psychedelic therapist?
maybe I could claim to be and could charge some big bucks to walk people at their wits ends back home.
nah, who would have the money.

I'm just another acidhead that fell onto this site by accident a few years ago.


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OfflineMcDominator
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Registered: 08/29/19
Posts: 270
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: How much is too much therapeutically? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26928315 - 09/10/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
i am not a therapist sorry.
are you in need of a psychedelic therapist?
maybe I could claim to be and could charge some big bucks to walk people at their wits ends back home.
nah, who would have the money.

I'm just another acidhead that fell onto this site by accident a few years ago.




Haha, okay. I see a psychedelic therapist already. I asked because you mentioned "the client" in your response.


--------------------
I'm here to learn. I'm also willing to help. If I'm wrong on something, please call me out. I am not resistant to new information, but I always carry a healthy dose of skepticism.


“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”

-Albert Einstein


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Invisiblecoversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ
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Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 2,749
Loc: संसार
Re: How much is too much therapeutically? [Re: McDominator]
    #26929359 - 09/11/20 04:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

This is just my thoughts on it all, based on my recent low dose dabbling; my youthful, uninformed high dose experiments; and my current personal approach to this based on my reading and feelings.

Without a lot of prior experience high dose trips may be too hit or miss without proper prep, guidance, and debriefing. Like Rhizomorph said, the user could very easily become overwhelmed by it all and struggle to learn anything. This is what I went through when I was young and tried eating too many liberty caps. I had a string of scary, overwhelming, and confusing trips that I gained little from. Other than a respect for how scary tripping can be.

Now I am revisiting tripping as a way to explore things. I'm using it as a companion to a meditation practice that I've been building over the last year. Still a baby to it all, but so far it's been interesting.

I'm still very much in the orientation phase of my mushroom eating. Feeling out the edges of the experience on low doses. I hope that I can slowly build my experience and steadily work towards a dose that provides the insights I seek.

To circle back to your questions. I haven't pushed the limits of what mushrooms can offer, but my gut tells me that there could well be an aspect of diminishing returns. I would be surprised if it's an experience you can scale infinitely. At this stage in my journey my feeling is that the higher the dose the more vital proper prep and guidance become. I'm not sure how much experience could mitigate this. Maybe someone who has extensive solo, high dose trips under their belt can chime in?

Also, for me personally, this debriefing stage would be key to how therapeutic the trip was. Without proper digestion and integration than I would be hard pushed to see the benefit of any level of trip.

Hope that makes some sense, I didn't sleep well last night so I'm a little foggy today.


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