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OfflineSnowGypsy
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Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use
    #26924209 - 09/08/20 07:22 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Curious about the possible health risks weekly use could entail? I'd come across some guy on here saying he takes some syrian rue daily. So should i be in the clear or? Are all the health risks associated with syrian rue to do with mixed use with SSRI's and diet? Usually fast before so i don't have to worry too much about what i eat tyramine wise.


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: SnowGypsy]
    #26924224 - 09/08/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

There are no bad interactions with tyramine, or any other food.

Syrian rue is no long lasting MAOI but a RIMA, a reversible inhibitor of mao-a, so most warnings about pharmaceutical, tricyclic, or generally long lasting MAO-a+b inhibitors do not apply to syrian rue.

There are users here who have taken syrian rue daily for years without any diet restrictions, with no harm.

Just avoid strong drugs or medications. SSRIs & other antidepressants, antipsychotics, stimulants & entactogens are dangerous to combine with syrian rue.
Cannabis, dmt, mushrooms, mescaline, chocolate & coffee are safe to combine. Coffee might get unusually strong, though beware.

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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Pandemoon]
    #26924627 - 09/08/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah i'm one of the people who takes Rue/Harmalas daily/regularly for long periods of time. I've never encountered any health risks or problems, i've went to the doctor a few times and gotten everything checked out, there's been no issues. I don't avoid anything dietarily because Tyramine isn't an issue with RIMA's. Only need to be careful about and watch out for drug to drug interactions like SSRI's, Amphetamines, and some other drugs/medications, also be careful with things metabolized by CYP1A2 or CYP2D6, Caffeine for example is metabolized by CYP1A2 which the Harmalas inhibit so it can potentiate the dosage of Caffeine, same thing goes for CYP2D6 substrates being potentiated. But aside from drug to drug interactions, there's no issues with regular consumption of Harmalas/Rue/Caapi. Quite a few people have consumed this stuff daily/regularly, especially over at the DMT-Nexus. Nobody has reported any issues.


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OfflineSnowGypsy
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock]
    #26925695 - 09/09/20 04:10 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the replies, I'd come across the tyramine thing being a myth, so it's nice to get confirmation about that from additional voices.

For those of you who have taken it daily, what kinds of doses? The past couple of times i've taken 5g once a week, ground it up the second time (should buy a coffee grinder since they're pretty stubborn to grind up).

Should probably look into a proper extraction process like non-polar / polar extraction. Or what would you say in terms of a most effective method for consumption?

I'd boiled them when unground, but then i read on zamnesia that some of it's lost in boiling so the ground time i just left in the fridge in some water for a couple of hours. Should probably leave it in for longer?

Probably should also boil for longer than i am... Haven't added citrus these past few times, the first time i tried it back in spring i did though. Any comments on how would be best, probably with something citric?


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OfflinePiaseski
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: SnowGypsy]
    #26926587 - 09/09/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Just had 250g of rue arrive in the post so this post is well timed for me as i'm intending to dose over an extended period with just rue before experimenting with potentiating my (smoked and hopefully oral) DMT and mushrooms - my partner has been off SSRIs for we over 6 months now and we've been talking about pharma/psilohuasca for a very long time - i feel it's important to get to know Rue itself first from how people here talk about it.

Thinking of small/concentrated teas with citrus? Have to say the reports of the taste are not making me excited, but also i feel like an extraction isnt doing the plant justice, at least at first...


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Piaseski]
    #26926614 - 09/09/20 03:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Piaseski said:
Just had 250g of rue arrive in the post so this post is well timed for me as i'm intending to dose over an extended period with just rue before experimenting with potentiating my (smoked and hopefully oral) DMT and mushrooms - my partner has been off SSRIs for we over 6 months now and we've been talking about pharma/psilohuasca for a very long time - i feel it's important to get to know Rue itself first from how people here talk about it.

Thinking of small/concentrated teas with citrus? Have to say the reports of the taste are not making me excited, but also i feel like an extraction isnt doing the plant justice, at least at first...




Could grind the seeds into a powder and encapsulate the powder, it's what i do.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: SnowGypsy]
    #26926621 - 09/09/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SnowGypsy said:
Thanks for the replies, I'd come across the tyramine thing being a myth, so it's nice to get confirmation about that from additional voices.

For those of you who have taken it daily, what kinds of doses? The past couple of times i've taken 5g once a week, ground it up the second time (should buy a coffee grinder since they're pretty stubborn to grind up).

Should probably look into a proper extraction process like non-polar / polar extraction. Or what would you say in terms of a most effective method for consumption?

I'd boiled them when unground, but then i read on zamnesia that some of it's lost in boiling so the ground time i just left in the fridge in some water for a couple of hours. Should probably leave it in for longer?

Probably should also boil for longer than i am... Haven't added citrus these past few times, the first time i tried it back in spring i did though. Any comments on how would be best, probably with something citric?




I use 3 to 4.5 grams of the seed, sometimes as low as 2.5 grams, but almost always 3 to 4.5 grams, usually 3 to 3.5 grams.

Coffee grinder is best for grinding the seeds into a powder.

The actual seed is better imo/ime than extracts, but extracts can be good too and are definitely effective, but misses out on some of the plant's aspects.


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Offlineigorcarajo
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock]
    #26927265 - 09/09/20 10:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What benefit(s) do you get from ingesting rue every day?


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: igorcarajo]
    #26927342 - 09/09/20 11:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I've read multiple times that l vasicine and vasicinone found in rue isn't so good for you. I don't know the context behind this though. I understood it was unpreferable to consume though.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Northerner]
    #26927380 - 09/10/20 12:20 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
I've read multiple times that l vasicine and vasicinone found in rue isn't so good for you. I don't know the context behind this though. I understood it was unpreferable to consume though.




It is good for you, has bronchodilator properties, helps cough up phlegm, breathe better, has vasorelaxant properties, probably has other benefits. Only thing that's not good about it is for pregnant women since they can cause abortion apparently.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: igorcarajo]
    #26927384 - 09/10/20 12:22 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

igorcarajo said:
What benefit(s) do you get from ingesting rue every day?




To name a few, pain relief, body relaxation, anti-depressant effects, more clearheaded, able to focus and concentrate better, gives me the ability to see mental imagery like thoughts and memories (when normally in my day to day i don't have that, i think i have some form of aphantasia), also makes me feel healthy and connected to Spirit, and i get taught things.


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OfflineSnowGypsy
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock]
    #26927561 - 09/10/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Sabnock, have you tried doses upwards of 5g? 10g?


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: SnowGypsy]
    #26928584 - 09/10/20 04:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SnowGypsy said:
Sabnock, have you tried doses upwards of 5g? 10g?




I have not, a few months ago i took 7 grams of roasted seed one night after having taken it daily for a few months, it went fine but was overall too much. Usually what i do is stick to 3 to 4.5 grams of seed daily or near daily and let the reverse tolerance build up, so that the Harmala content gets stronger and stronger each time so after a bit of taking it regularly the Harmala content gets as potent/strong as taking 5 to 10 grams or more, except that i don't have to take that much Rue and therefore don't get heavier amounts of the other stuff in Rue, so when i do that it gives me the heavier Harmala dosages but has a cleaner feel to it compared to taking that equivalent dosage of Rue. Another thing about the Harmala reverse tolerance is that after a bit of taking it regularly the side-effects will go away so no more nausea or vomiting, the bodyload cleans up and the motor function impairment is reduced which allows you to handle heavy heavy dosages of Harmala content a lot easier and things become way more manageable. I've personally never felt the need to take more than 4.5 grams of Rue because that dosage is already strong enough lol.


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OfflineMessiah of Savants
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock] * 1
    #27226168 - 02/25/21 03:48 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
I've read multiple times that l vasicine and vasicinone found in rue isn't so good for you. I don't know the context behind this though. I understood it was unpreferable to consume though.




It is good for you, has bronchodilator properties, helps cough up phlegm, breathe better, has vasorelaxant properties, probably has other benefits. Only thing that's not good about it is for pregnant women since they can cause abortion apparently.




I just had my second rue experience with 12g of shrooms and 2.7g rue (I usually dose very high, around 25g) after my first experience almost a decade ago. It was an amazing experience. I usually also re-dose the same amount of mushrooms after 2-3 hours. Obviously this is a lot of mushrooms and the main reason I wanted to try rue again. After the last experience of only having to use half the mushrooms and the trip being even more powerful in it's own unique way and lasting longer, I'm thinking of regularly using rue when I trip (and perhaps not doing a second dose anymore). This would be 1/2 - 3/4 less mushrooms!

My main concern is my girlfriend. I've read that syrian rue can stop menstruation as well as cause abortion and I worry this is not a good thing for my girlfriend to be doing long term. Are the menstruation effects a real thing? It seems the abortion claim may indeed be true, but what about menstruation? Do you have any knowledge on the subject? Have you or anyone else known any women that have used rue daily? Or even just weekly? Are their periods normal? We would only be using the rue once a week at most. She really loved the experience too but I am concerned.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Messiah of Savants]
    #27226234 - 02/25/21 04:40 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Iirc it's said that Rue can act as an emmenagogue, so it gets menstruation going. The abortive properties are unlikely to be an issue at commonly used dosages, from my understanding you have to go for a lot of Rue, like at least 20 to 50 grams or so, to cause an abortion, iirc, it's doubtful an abortion would occur from 2 to 4 grams or so of Rue, but regardless, it's best that a pregnant woman not consume Rue, but the emmenagogue thing is fine and probably healthy, just not during pregnancy, obviously, but even it's emmenagogue properties, i'm not sure at what dosage that would be a thing, especially since emmenagogue properties are i think what contributes to causing an abortion, so again, may not be any issue at commonly used dosages, imo.


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OfflineMessiah of Savants
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock]
    #27226820 - 02/25/21 11:41 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the reply!


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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock]
    #27227340 - 02/26/21 10:45 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting stuff, you seem to have immersed yourself quite deeply in this world. Given that, how would you recommend dosing to work reverse tolerance and make a psilohuasca experience more foolproof?  And by any chance would you ever add THH to the mix?


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27227764 - 02/26/21 02:48 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LeafRaker said:
Interesting stuff, you seem to have immersed yourself quite deeply in this world. Given that, how would you recommend dosing to work reverse tolerance and make a psilohuasca experience more foolproof?  And by any chance would you ever add THH to the mix?




As far as the reverse tolerance goes, what i did is i would take the same dosage of Rue until it felt too strong, then i'd lower the dosage a bit and keep taking that dosage until it got too strong, then lower the dosage again and continue on. Eventually you only end up needing a little bit of Rue for a full dose of Harmalas, and it's a good way to keep the dosage relatively the same, by lowering it a little as it gets too strong. It's not perfect, but it works.

As for Psilohuasca, what do you mean by more fullproof? I would say just don't take Psilocin more than once or twice a week as to avoid tolerance.

I haven't added THH in the mix with DMT or Psilocin, yet, but i really see no reason to, doesn't mean i won't ever try it because i likely will, but personally i've found Harmine/Harmaline (Rue) to be all i need, the times i've tried THH on it's own or in combination with the Rue it really didn't make much difference but idk what difference, if any, it'd make with the Psychedelic portion in the mix.


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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock]
    #27227916 - 02/26/21 04:28 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

By foolproof I mean making sure you're working with MAO inhibition and haven't mis-timed your MAO dose. I usually do MAOis as a one time thing, but I still think it's hard to get the timing right, it would be nice to add in some margin of error.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27228099 - 02/26/21 06:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LeafRaker said:
By foolproof I mean making sure you're working with MAO inhibition and haven't mis-timed your MAO dose. I usually do MAOis as a one time thing, but I still think it's hard to get the timing right, it would be nice to add in some margin of error.




Well i usually take DMT or Psilocin 30 minutes to an hour after consuming the MAO-A inhibitor, usually an hour apart, seems to work consistently ime.


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OfflineMessiah of Savants
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock] * 2
    #27232623 - 03/01/21 07:33 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I've only done rue with shrooms three times now, one of which was many years ago and not a great experience. I believe it was because I was taking caffeine pills and didn't realize the bad reaction the combo can have. I had a massive headache and thought my head was going to explode. It wasn't a good experience at all. Don't mix caffeine with rue as it will make the caffeine really strong.

The last two times these last two weekends have been at 2.7 and 3.6 grams rue respectively ground and capped 30-45 mins before taking half my regular dose of shrooms. It was amazing both times! I don't know that I'll ever want to trip again without rue unless some long term effects of rue are found. Sabnock has been taking it a long time and hasn't seen any adverse effects which is really good to hear.

It really makes me wonder why more people don't try it. I guess most people take small doses (< 3-4 grams) and don't really feel the need to get really out there even further. It adds a nice jolt of strength to the trip besides having to use only half the mushrooms. It truly is amazing and magic!

It was mostly posts by Sabnock about how much he loves it and how safe it really is. Food interactions don't really seem to be a thing like many have claimed in the past. That made me want to try it again after all these years. Thanks to you Sabnock! I'm now sold and a believer in the rue! 8]


Edited by Messiah of Savants (03/01/21 07:35 PM)


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Messiah of Savants] * 1
    #27232849 - 03/01/21 10:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Messiah of Savants said:
I've only done rue with shrooms three times now, one of which was many years ago and not a great experience. I believe it was because I was taking caffeine pills and didn't realize the bad reaction the combo can have. I had a massive headache and thought my head was going to explode. It wasn't a good experience at all. Don't mix caffeine with rue as it will make the caffeine really strong.

The last two times these last two weekends have been at 2.7 and 3.6 grams rue respectively ground and capped 30-45 mins before taking half my regular dose of shrooms. It was amazing both times! I don't know that I'll ever want to trip again without rue unless some long term effects of rue are found. Sabnock has been taking it a long time and hasn't seen any adverse effects which is really good to hear.

It really makes me wonder why more people don't try it. I guess most people take small doses (< 3-4 grams) and don't really feel the need to get really out there even further. It adds a nice jolt of strength to the trip besides having to use only half the mushrooms. It truly is amazing and magic!

It was mostly posts by Sabnock about how much he loves it and how safe it really is. Food interactions don't really seem to be a thing like many have claimed in the past. That made me want to try it again after all these years. Thanks to you Sabnock! I'm now sold and a believer in the rue! 8]




Hell yeah, that's the spirit! lol. Yeah Caffeine is metabolized by CYP1A2 and Harmalas inhibit that enzyme as well so it can end up potentiating the Caffeine. I personally like a little Caffeine in the mix sometimes but do need to go lower on Caffeine dosage and be mindful of how much you're consuming.

But i'm glad you like the Psilohuasca, it is indeed odd that more people haven't tried it or worked with it or talked about it. With as popular as Ayahuasca is, Psilohuasca definitely has untapped potential that as far as i know maybe a handful of people are exploring, like there's one guy in the Netherlands i think who uses the truffle/sclorotia with the Rue for Psilohuasca ceremonies, but not many people seem to have explored it especially in a more ceremonial context like Ayahuasca. The Rue/Harmalas definitely adds different layers and a nature/character of the experience and has more potential compared to what's offered by just mushrooms alone, imo.

One thing i really wanna get into at some point is combining mushrooms (or 4-ACO-DMT) with Mimosa or Acacia root with Rue and possibly Lemon Balm. Also wanna try mixing both Caapi and Rue at some point as well.

But yeah every now and then i see someone say that Rue is toxic or is toxic if taken long term, and i honestly don't know where people are getting that information, some of it could be people trying to hype up "traditional Ayahuasca"/Caapi and shitting on the Rue for being a "mere" analog and "not the real deal", but those who've pursued the Rue more in depth have all said it's a very powerful teacher on par with Caapi, and ime, they are very similar and offer a lot of the same things, just through a different lens/flavor. It seems that most times, people confuse/misunderstand/misinterpret Rue's Vasicine and Vasicinone content potentially causing abortion with Rue somehow being toxic, which those compounds aren't toxic, they just shouldn't be consumed by pregnant women. Another claim is that long term use of Rue can cause liver damage or something, but according to the studies i could find having to do with the liver, the dosages for any kind of liver damage was extremely high, like we're talking at least 6 grams of pure Harmaline iirc, nobody in their right mind would even take a whole gram of Harmaline, i mean geez 250 to 350mgs of Harmaline is enough to make most people suffer lol. And also iirc one of the studies mentioned that the liver changes reflecting some sort of damage were reversed when the Harmaline was no longer consumed, so the liver damage from those high dosages of Harmaline was reversible. But with all that said, in commonly used dosages, up to say 10 grams or so, Rue seems pretty safe physically, even when taken daily long term.

Aside from Rue's physical side-effects like the nausea/vomiting and feeling sick and dizziness and motion sickness and such, i've never gotten the impression that Rue was in any way toxic or harmful or bad, although i can see why people may be a bit concerned if they overdo it on the Rue and end up feeling poisoned lol. And when i've taken Limonene with Rue to knock out the sickness effects, it feels pretty clean to me for the most part, especially so when adding Lemon Balm into the mix with or without Limonene. Part of Rue's undesirable side-effects has to do with bodyload, which the Lemon Balm can clean up pretty well, and the purgative/sickness stuff which Limonene can clean up pretty well. But with that said, there's benefit to being able to purge and all sometimes, but for the most part i'd rather have a cleaner body feel than to have my guts distracting me from the experience, but i do feel like the purge has some benefits, just not something i want to experience/deal with unless i really need or feel the need to.


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Edited by Sabnock (03/01/21 10:24 PM)


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Messiah of Savants] * 2
    #27233238 - 03/02/21 07:24 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Messiah of Savants said:
I don't know that I'll ever want to trip again without rue..

It really makes me wonder why more people don't try it..

It adds a nice jolt of strength to the trip besides having to use only half the mushrooms. It truly is amazing and magic!

..




:seriousthumbsup:

Same here. :sun:
Sabnock inspired me to extract pure harmala alkaloids, it works like a charm (see link in my signature),
and my first psilohuasca experience convinced me to never eat shrooms without harmalas again. It almost feels like a waste without.
Done this combo several times already. 4g of cubes + 150mg or pure harmalas and I couldn't see straight, I was on an entirely new planet, made of patterns and mandalas in colors I couldn't even imagine.. :lol:

It adds so much more to the experience, it's so gentle, and it last as long as lsd. :thumbup:

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OfflineMessiah of Savants
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Pandemoon]
    #27239881 - 03/06/21 04:27 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Hey Sabnock, you ever get the shits from eating capsules of syrian rue??


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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Messiah of Savants]
    #27240516 - 03/06/21 01:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Messiah of Savants said:
Hey Sabnock, you ever get the shits from eating capsules of syrian rue??




Sometimes, it usually does make me have to poop but it's not always diarrhea. But it happens to me regardless if i use the seed powder itself or extracts, it's just a property of the Harmalas. It tends to go away with the build up of the reverse tolerance.


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OfflineMessiah of Savants
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: Sabnock]
    #27241085 - 03/06/21 09:34 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I assume you need to be doing rue almost every day to build the reverse tolerance? Once a week wouldn't be enough, right?

I've tried rue 3 times now. The first time with 2.7g and no diarrhea. The second time with 3.6g and very little diarrhea. The third time with 3.6g I had significant diarrhea. It's not until I start coming down, but it's still no fun at all. I wonder if eating a bit during the start of the come down may help or what else I could possibly do. I will probably go back down to 2.7g since that seems to be enough to potentiate and I didn't notice much difference from 3.6g. Is 1.6-1.8g (2 000 capsules) enough to fully potentiate a trip? I thought I remember mostly reading that you need at least 2-2.5g to fully potentiate.

Also I was just reading an older post where you state that the MAOI effects stop after 2 hours. I usually double dose 2-3 hours after the first mushroom tea, does this mean that the second does will not be potentiated at all? I would have to take more rue? That wouldn't be a problem, but if eating a lot of rue can lead to diarrhea, I really don't want to do that.

Thanks for all your help and input!


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OfflineTheEschatologist
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use *DELETED* [Re: Messiah of Savants]
    #27245875 - 03/09/21 11:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

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InvisibleLeafRaker
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Re: Any health risks associated with long-term Syrian Rue use [Re: TheEschatologist]
    #27246131 - 03/10/21 06:04 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Anyone want to share the biggest risks (at any scale of dose, frequency, or with a history of chronic use) of Rue?

I know some of you point to it's RIMA status as a sign that mixing it with tyramine isn't a worry, but I'm cautious about tyramine in general, since it triggers my migraines and generally advise others to be mindful of it as well. But since Rue has thousands of years of history across many cultures and I'd assume there's some wisdom or at least suggestion about how it could be problematic.


--------------------
Knowledge is finite, ignorance is infinite.


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