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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26923292 - 09/07/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Title says it all.

What are your thoughts on capitalism?




It’s a great idea in theory but it doesn’t work in real life due to human nature.




On the contrary, capitalism has been built around human nature.  It works because of human nature.  Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.  If you are not a risk taker, you can work for one and earn a salary.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26923631 - 09/07/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. The past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/07/20 07:16 PM)


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26923644 - 09/07/20 07:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 3
    #26923709 - 09/07/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So the rich/high industry get socialism and we get cutthroat capitalism?

If industry gets bailout money, each taxpayer/worker in industry should receive a dividend check or some other perk; what Milton referred to as a "negative income tax" or a version thereof.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/07/20 07:53 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26923828 - 09/07/20 09:03 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.




I believe this is what happened with Venezuela. One industry got too big to fail, got all the government contracts, got all the government assistance to soften the blows, and then the oil prices crashed.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26923855 - 09/07/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.




how do you feel about single payer healthcare?


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26923884 - 09/07/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I believe this is what happened with Venezuela. One industry got too big to fail, got all the government contracts, got all the government assistance to soften the blows, and then the oil prices crashed.




According to this article:
Quote:

Venezuela is currently suffering widespread gasoline shortages, with domestic production hamstrung by US sanctions prohibiting the import of vital diluents and spare parts needed to reactivate the country’s refining capacity.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26924214 - 09/08/20 07:28 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I believe the figure I recently read said they are currently producing 10% as much oil as previously.

My feelings on capitalism are you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It's a lot like feudalism in terms of social stratification. The best predictor of your outcome is the situation you were born into.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26924253 - 09/08/20 07:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Title says it all.

What are your thoughts on capitalism?




It’s a great idea in theory but it doesn’t work in real life due to human nature.




On the contrary, capitalism has been built around human nature.  It works because of human nature.  Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.  If you are not a risk taker, you can work for one and earn a salary.




Oh my sweet summer child.


--------------------


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26924258 - 09/08/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.




how do you feel about single payer healthcare?




Let me put it this way, I'm Canadian


--------------------


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26924304 - 09/08/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, but what about the medical billing industry?  Insurance companies?  They are dead weight but make up a large portion of the economy.  When the U.S. eventually moves to single payer, should these industries be bailed out?


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26924363 - 09/08/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Ok, but what about the medical billing industry?  Insurance companies?  They are dead weight but make up a large portion of the economy.  When the U.S. eventually moves to single payer, should these industries be bailed out?




They will crash and burn and adapt to the new reality.

Or...  Medical billing companies could become a billing company for another sector.

Insurance companies can insure something else.

Maybe the goverment can roll out a program to support the laid off employees for a while. Let's say something like unemployment insurance...


--------------------


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26924693 - 09/08/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I believe this is what happened with Venezuela. One industry got too big to fail, got all the government contracts, got all the government assistance to soften the blows, and then the oil prices crashed.




According to this article:
Quote:

Venezuela is currently suffering widespread gasoline shortages, with domestic production hamstrung by US sanctions prohibiting the import of vital diluents and spare parts needed to reactivate the country’s refining capacity.







Yeah, Venezuela started cannibalizing its own oil infrastructure pretty quickly due to the fact that the biggest oil players basically owned the government. At this point, it would take significant investment just to get their refineries operational again, because of all the copper that's been ripped out of the walls.

Similar things are happening in the US, with banks and oil companies cannibalizing the constituency that makes up their profit base, it's just that the US constituency has more money to squeeze out of them.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26924701 - 09/08/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

When you understand that capitalism is the global hegemon, from militaries to banks to industry to diplomacy to food, you can begin to see why a small country in South America couldn’t stand up to it on oil profits alone.

Saudi Arabia is a fucking monarchy dependent on oil, somehow never in danger of regular US backed coup attempts. Why? They aren’t threatening the status quo. You can literally do 9/11 and get the US to sell you weapons as long as you agree to not threaten capitalism.


--------------------


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26924705 - 09/08/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Venezuela used to be every single oil exec's go to example for why oil production/consumption is good.

When that went down the tubes, they became the communist scapegoat, because they no longer served a purpose in supporting oil dependency.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26924969 - 09/08/20 04:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
On the contrary, capitalism has been built around human nature.  It works because of human nature.  Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.




You're leaving out the fact that capitalism will also make you rich if you were born into a wealthy family and that it will make it extremely difficult to climb your way out of poverty if you were born into a poor family. I assume that by "take risks", you're suggesting opening your own business that appeals to a niche or presently unsatisfied market that isn't already being satisfied. If the risk pays off, then you will not only receive large sums of money, but will also be the only provider of that good or service (a monopoly) due to the fact that it's a niche or previously unsatisfied market. You will then be able to use your extra funds to shut down competition by offering the goods or service cheaper than other businesses who offer the same service or goods, thus securing the monopoly. Poor people (of which there are literally millions in the US) don't have any money with which they can start a business. Starting a business requires legal fees, usually requires renting or buying property from which to run the business, and costs money to acquire resources for your goods or services (or, at the very least, to pay laborers to acquire those resources for you). Since poor people can't start a business on their own, they need to take out a loan from a bank and pay it off with the money they will hopefully earn from their new business. Unfortunately, taking out a loan is extremely difficult because, if you are poor, you have no credit score, and if you have no credit score, the banks are not going to trust you enough to give you a loan. Capitalism doesn't reward people for taking risks. It punishes people for being poor and prevents them from having any economic autonomy whatsoever (including the ability to "take risks" as you're suggesting).

Quote:

Patlal said:
If you are not a risk taker poor, you can are forced to work for one a wealthy person who does absolutely no labor and earn a salary, or you will be evicted from the roof you live under and be left on the streets to starve and die.



There, fixed it for you.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Edited by Nonagon Infinity (09/08/20 04:40 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26924993 - 09/08/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.




I forgot to mention this more directly:

What is risk?

For example, did Bill Gates "take a risk" when he dropped out of Harvard and started Microsoft in his parent's garage? By all accounts, he was one of the best students in his class, and his parents were both wealthy professionals. If Microsoft didn't work out, he would have finished his degree at one of the best schools in the world near the top of his class.

Did Jeff Bezos "take a risk" starting Amazon? His family owned a 25,000 acre ranch. If Amazon failed, his father was an oil engineer, his grandfather was a regional director for the Atomic Energy Commission, and he was related to a somewhat famous country singer.

Now, compare those "risks" to some guy making, let's say, median wage (60k), with no debt (so, way above median), with, say, 10k savings (way above median). What are the relative "risks" in our hypothetical median income worker with above average savings and no debt quitting his job to start a business?


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26925002 - 09/08/20 05:03 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26925035 - 09/08/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Venezuela used to be every single oil exec's go to example for why oil production/consumption is good.

When that went down the tubes, they became the communist scapegoat, because they no longer served a purpose in supporting oil dependency.




That’s certainly a big part of it :thumbup:


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 4
    #26925038 - 09/08/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.




Why do you think the US media is so heavily invested in making sure those stories saturate the media landscape?

It’s because class mobility in this country is practically nonexistent. Most rich people inherit their wealth.


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