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Offlinefuzzysig
user

Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 422
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Need info on shroom and mdma interaction with your brain chemicals
    #26922927 - 09/07/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I went to doctors they look at me with blank face.
My blood test is good.

the puzzle
After shroom trip and especially after mdma trip
I dont get a hangover but instead i feel complete balance emotionally and mentally
i can focus on myself instead of other people first.
Essentially my extreme empathy and lack of self care is gone(it is ruining my life)

so im trying to find out the chemical interactions that happen during and after mdma and shrooms
Mdma makes me feel completely at peace
Does it deplete other brain chemicals besides serotonin?

Anyone is good with chemistry please help with info


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Other


Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Need info on shroom and mdma interaction with your brain chemicals [Re: fuzzysig] * 1
    #26924886 - 09/08/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

*disclaimer: a lot of the neuroscienc-y stuff is put into lay persons terms to make it easier to understand - it is not scientifically accurate, but rather, an easy way to conceptualize the neurological underpinnings.

I'm not an expert on the neurochemical impact these drugs have, but as a student of psychedelics & psychology, I may be able to answer your question.

Both MDMA & psilocybin mushrooms often elicit what Abraham Maslow called a "plateau experience", which is essentially lasting effects in the days/weeks/months after the "peak experience", that is, the actual effects of these drugs.

Some explanations may be attributed to the fact that profound realizations, heightened emotional experiences, and experiences of transcendence (feeling connected to external world/universe) have a high potential to cause lasting impacts on our mood and personality. When the brain communicates in an atypical way, even for 6 hours, new neural pathways may be created that mimic some of the emotions and experiences encountered while tripping. This isn't to say we will feel like we are tripping again, but if we felt a profound sense of gratitude while using psychedelics, a less intense/more generalized gratitude may prevail in the following days due to this neural pathway being exercised (just like how a muscle gets stronger the more it is used). More research really needs to be done to confirm the reason behind psychedelics' plateau effects, but this is where current research seems to be at if you ask me.

In terms of the neuroscience of psilocybin and MDMA, the two act a bit differently. To start with psilocybin, it is metabolized into psilocin by your gut. Psilocin mimics serotonin and therefore "locks into" neurotransmitter sites. These specific sites (5HT2a primarily) are often responsible for transmitting signals that are related to the experience of visual integration, and communication across brain networks (such as the default mode network, which is implicated in your sense of identity). As such, psychedelics tend to connect many areas of the brain that didn't previously communicate, while shutting down areas responsible for the ego/self (AKA ego-death). Even without ego-death psychedelics tend to "blur" the ego/self. This results in the feelings of connectedness & transcendence & the downstream plateau effects mentioned previously.

On the other hand, MDMA has a slightly different mechanism. It does mimic serotonin, but more importantly, it "latches onto" serotonin that your brain has pre-made and stored away for future use. MDMA then carries it to the synaptic cleft (area between neurons where communication occurs), forcing the serotonin itself to attach to receptor sites, firing the neuron at rapid rates. This also occurs to oxytocin (the "love hormone"), dopamine, and epinephrine (what used to be called adrenaline). These are in much smaller amounts compared to serotonin though - The relationship between MDMA and serotonin is by far the most intense. However, the brain responds to this influx of neurochemicals by destroying them, which means your brain has to put in extra work to produce more and you will have much less for a period of time (AKA the comedown).

MDMA's neurotoxicity is somewhat related to this and this is why you should not overdo MDMA. The risk is very low in moderation but very high if reasonable consideration is not given. Your brain can only handle so much serotonin firing off before cell death occurs (as an innate protective mechanism against far worse consequences).

MDMA promotes a similar connectedness as psilocybin but in a bit of a different way. This is done because oxytocin promotes feelings of social cohesion, acceptance, and of course love. Although this feeling might subside after the effects wear off, when, in your case, you feel a lack of empathy to begin with, a single experience of feeling loved and accepted can bring a sense of lasting joy as it fulfills a need that wasn't previously met. Often our needs are like using the bathroom; although the feelings from MDMA wear off, we still experienced it and the build-up to need to "pee" or feel loved in this case has been reset. (Not that MDMA should ever be used as a replacement for these needs of course - this is called addiction lol - But without the addiction we still feel the lovely euphoria and whatnot).

An important difference between psilocin and MDMA is that psilocin doesn't use up the brain's serotonin deposits, as it simply mimics them. MDMA on the other hand uses them up which leads to the comedown. Although MDMA gives you a sense of peace & tranquility in subsequent days, I have heard from many that the more times you use it, the more likely you are to experience a comedown. I personally didn't experience a comedown until around my 10th time taking it. But, from my subjective experience many people experience this at some point which may undermine the plateau effects. This isn't to say MDMA isn't great for the experience itself, but the plateau effects may not be as significant. For PTSD it works great since the feelings of trust can help trauma victims open up to their experiences & therapist, but this is more about creating a space to be able to express oneself than experiencing plateau effects. For more simple feelings of peace it may not be as effective in the long-term in my opinion.

Lastly, if you are feeling a lack of empathy & self care there may be a deeper issue if it has been persisting for some time. If you have access to a therapist it wouldn't hurt to chat with them about it as they are professionals. Psilocybin works wonders for personal growth but if how you are feeling is ruining your life as you say, psilocybin or MDMA will not fix this on their own. I do believe psychedelics have a huge potential for self-growth but more importantly, an integrated framework needs to be applied between using psychedelics with the right intentions, and doing the therapeutic work outside of the psychedelic experience.


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


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OfflineGoodDoctor06
Dr. Psilonaught
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Registered: 12/12/19
Posts: 60
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Need info on shroom and mdma interaction with your brain chemicals [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #26966153 - 10/02/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Great response man!!

MindMed is one of my shroom stocks. They are doing a similar research.  Psilonaugts and toxicologist call it "candy flipping" (I think it's a musical song by the group LSD, but I am old now so I haven't heard of it until I went to a toxicology conference).

Check out the research.  MindMed is on the Canadian neo exchange MMED and otc MMEDF.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Need info on shroom and mdma interaction with your brain chemicals [Re: GoodDoctor06]
    #26966432 - 10/02/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I've been following MindMed for quite a bit now... They're doing some interesting stuff :thumbup:

I've more commonly heard of candy flipping as a referent for LSD + MDMA, but terms like this get thrown around and changed so much it could be used for psilocybin + MDMA as well.

Generally "hippie flipping" is what I've heard for psilocybin + MDMA too.

The terms are just psychedelic jargon so there's nobody policing the terms either way :shrug:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (10/02/20 06:08 PM)


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