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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 1
    #26938877 - 09/16/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.



I don't like that story at all. Julius Caesar was an integral actor in the creation of the Roman Empire, which was one of the most oppressive, violent governments in human history. Millions of people died by the hand of that empire, and I don't think that's worthy of praise.



It sounded to me like he was praising the concept of paying out of ones own pocket, not that he necessarily likes Julius Caesar.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26939176 - 09/16/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.



I don't like that story at all. Julius Caesar was an integral actor in the creation of the Roman Empire, which was one of the most oppressive, violent governments in human history. Millions of people died by the hand of that empire, and I don't think that's worthy of praise.



It sounded to me like he was praising the concept of paying out of ones own pocket, not that he necessarily likes Julius Caesar.  :shrug:



Paying an army out of one's own pocket is precisely the reason I'm criticizing Caesar, though (among other things). A privately funded military was an integral piece of the puzzle that led to the uprising of the Roman Empire. A privately funded military is not worthy of praise.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26939200 - 09/16/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Erik Prince disagrees.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26939336 - 09/16/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26939342 - 09/16/20 04:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

But I fought for my "country", in another country. Tell me, that I didnt get sold a bag of goods?


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26939407 - 09/16/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Paying an army out of one's own pocket is precisely the reason I'm criticizing Caesar, though (among other things).



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.



Both very good points.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #26939757 - 09/16/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.




It's still the ruling class funding their militarism, more or less. Middle class Americans as well. As republicans love to point out, the bottom 50% don;t pay taxes.

At least now, the middle and lower class have *some* say in what the militarism does, to a (small) extent.

The way I see it, the problem is the police themselves. A cop or a soldier is, fundamentally, a class traitor. It's a lower class job, with middle class wages, that mostly supports the power of the upper class. Actually, now that I put it into words, I think police are the absolute best example of class traitors. It's third place assholes buying themselves second place by screwing over other people in second or third place, and maintaining the people in first.

That's not a problem that would be solved by forcing upper classes to pay for their own militarization. Triggermen are cheap: just look at Trump's goon squads. Most of them are doing it for free, paying out of their own pocket for good feelings. However, turning the system into a military junta by having generals pay their soldiers only makes things worse for everyone else. Rome is a great example. Caesar paid his army out of his own pocket, which is why Caesar's army had no problem crossing the Rubicon and marching on Rome when he decided to seize power. They had no allegiance to the senate nor the people of Rome. If Caesar told them to put Rome to the torch instead of just seizing power, they would have killed their own friends, neighbors, and family members.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26939921 - 09/16/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.



I don't like that story at all. Julius Caesar was an integral actor in the creation of the Roman Empire, which was one of the most oppressive, violent governments in human history. Millions of people died by the hand of that empire, and I don't think that's worthy of praise.



It sounded to me like he was praising the concept of paying out of ones own pocket, not that he necessarily likes Julius Caesar.  :shrug:



Paying an army out of one's own pocket is precisely the reason I'm criticizing Caesar, though (among other things). A privately funded military was an integral piece of the puzzle that led to the uprising of the Roman Empire. A privately funded military is not worthy of praise.



As far as dictators go though he wasn't the worst.
He managed to pay his army, grant citizenship to many, remove 1/4 of societies debt and was popular with the poor.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #26939925 - 09/16/20 11:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26939994 - 09/17/20 01:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
As far as dictators go though he wasn't the worst.




Pretty low bar, IMO.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26939996 - 09/17/20 01:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.



I think the problem is the militarism itself, personally. I'm a pacifist, though.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door

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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26939998 - 09/17/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Erik Prince disagrees.



:laugh2: For sure.


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 2
    #26940250 - 09/17/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.



I think the problem is the militarism itself, personally. I'm a pacifist, though.




Of course, but having us not only fight for their wars but also fund it just adds insult to injury.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26942790 - 09/18/20 04:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Changing the way corporations avoid paying tax may help too.

The Australian arms of Ford, Mitsubishi, GM, Toyota, Santos, Shell, Chevron, Exon Mobil, Virgin, BlueScope, Vodaphone combined, paid $0.00 tax in 2019.
I paid more tax than RTPDS Aus Pty Ltd. It's a fictitious cooked up under performing? arm of Rio Tinto. Amazingly, they ended up with roughly the same taxable income as Rio Tinto Pty Ltd (11 billion) yet paid $4641 tax.
If an individual ran a business as badly as these greedy shits they'd be wound up. Instead big business tells government what to do.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26942813 - 09/18/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You've almost certainly paid more taxes than Jeff Bezos, if it makes you feel better.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26942825 - 09/18/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Changing the way corporations avoid paying tax may help too.



How about we don't charge businesses any tax at all?  Instead we raise taxes on the top income earners, and especially raise the capital gains tax (it used to be a lot higher than income tax until billionaires bribed Congressmen to make it lower).

Basically, money isn't taxed until someone in the company gets it personally, be it the boss, the worker, or the owner/shareholders.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/18/20 05:08 PM)

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26942836 - 09/18/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ha Kryptos, ummmm no.
That's not a bad idea Falcon seeing as the money is funneled to shareholders anyway.

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Offlinesweetsara
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Asante]
    #26942863 - 09/18/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Here, Here

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Offlinesweetsara
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26942868 - 09/18/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Here
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Capitalism is a modern re-branding of feudalism. Except instead of ruling by "divine right" passed down through generations, capitalists rule by "good business" passed down through generations.





This is a great point. Can I steal it, put a bow on it, and sell it as my own? You know,  like a good capatalist?

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Offlinesweetsara
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: sweetsara] * 1
    #26942875 - 09/18/20 05:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Is it possible to outlaw lobbying? What about propaganda produced by corporations?  These seem like actionable ideas. I see these as 2 MAJOR problems, in an ocean of others, but a good goal for voters.

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