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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Capitalism, where do you stand?
    #26921078 - 09/06/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Title says it all.

What are your thoughts on capitalism?


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26921107 - 09/06/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The most positive aspect is the innovation and production of available goods and services. Would a government be able to sell a $1 burger or put the latest tech in our hands? I dont think so. Could our politicans make the same decisions as the Fed? Majority of our representatives dont have the belly for it.

It would be interesting to think that some Ordoliberal theories could be implemented to provide more social welfare to people. It seems more palatable than laissez-faire capitalism and potentially be a fair compromise between the two.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26921120 - 09/06/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It is commonly said that, though it is a very imperfect socioeconomic system, it is the best one that has evolved historically. I think that's a very broad generalization and arguments could be made from both history and anthropology that bring it seriously into question.

It's a pretty unfair system for a lot of people, and those few who make billions are under no social or legal compulsion to give anything back at all -- to society, to taxation, to their own employees, etc. As Kurt Vonnegut said, wealthy people today are mandated to do less for the poor since those of Napoleonic times. It's fucked up.

I don't really have the inclination to get into the weeds in this post, but I will say this: Entrepreneurship seems to be the most valued trait in a person in contemporary America. That we would value the buying and selling of goods above all else illustrates a sad shallowness that I, for one, despise. But ultramaterialistic social systems tend to skew things like that.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlineqman
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 4
    #26921168 - 09/06/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism is an ideal, not an economic system. It's the label given to a human system to justify immoral behavior. When push comes to shove, the "capitalists" want nothing to do with the true components of free markets and they never have.

Capitalism is the excuse to piss on the working class and to justify the incredible economic imbalances that usually result from human greed. I really wish that we practiced "capitalism" because the outcome would be so much better for the vast majority of the population.

It's always been a heavily manipulated form of crony capitalism at work and it only gets worse as the imbalances get even more exaggerated. It's "capitalism" for the peasants and it's "pro-business policies" for The Elite. In other words, no socialism for the working class, but there's plenty for the "capitalists".


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 3
    #26921246 - 09/06/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism is a modern re-branding of feudalism. Except instead of ruling by "divine right" passed down through generations, capitalists rule by "good business" passed down through generations.



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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26921250 - 09/06/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Would a government be able to sell a $1 burger




I haven't seen a 1$ burger in...over half a decade. The dollar menu is a $1.29 menu now, and occasionally a $3 menu.


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26921273 - 09/06/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I rarely eat fast food, but they are still a dollar in MI, OH.



--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/06/20 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 5
    #26921876 - 09/06/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism is ran by complete retards who run the world into the ground with it.

Loud and Clear: If every human in the world has a decent standard of living, not only is this good for innovation, but all producers would have a bigger market too.

If less and less people in the world can take part in the free exchange of goods and services, you are doing something VERY wrong as a capitalist system.

Capitalism as it is practiced now, in the absence of guillotines, will result in there being one company, THE COMPANY, that sells all products in the market and the only one who can afford any of them is its CEO.

We destroy the environment faster and faster so fewer and fewer can have bigger and bigger piles of money.

Its a death machine.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Asante]
    #26922418 - 09/07/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism is just the name given to the system where people produce goods or perform services that others are willing to pay or trade for.  A primitive barter system where you grow chickens and collect the eggs which you then trade for something you want but can’t produce, let’s say goat cheese, is capitalism.  Even communist countries like China practice capitalism while they rail against it.

The alternative to trading or buying goods and services is to use force to take them away from the people who produced them.  It’s “robbery” if you take their goods, and “slavery” if you take their services.

Pretty sure most of us are against theft and slavery.

What people are really complaining about when they say they hate capitalism is NOT capitalism, it’s the Federal Reserve System, which prints money and gives it to the big banks of the world in a corporate cronyism fashion that is almost fascistic.  The Federal Reserve steals a percentage of the value of the dollars in your pocket and gives it to the politically connected so they can enrich themselves, while leaving you paying more for everything you value and want to have, but cannot produce on your own.

That’s the system people hate.  No one gets upset at a poor farmer who manages to trade 10 eggs for some goat cheese instead of a full dozen eggs, despite that being capitalism.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Ep1429]
    #26922827 - 09/07/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ep1429 said:
Capitalism is just the name given to the system where people produce goods or perform services that others are willing to pay or trade for.



That's also called communism.  Or pretty much any system.

Quote:

Ep1429 said:
A primitive barter system where you grow chickens and collect the eggs which you then trade for something you want but can’t produce, let’s say goat cheese, is capitalism.  Even communist countries like China practice capitalism while they rail against it.



So what's a modern system called, where factory farms hire workers for slave wages to do all that for them?

Quote:

Ep1429 said:
The alternative to trading or buying goods and services is to use force to take them away from the people who produced them.  It’s “robbery” if you take their goods, and “slavery” if you take their services.

Pretty sure most of us are against theft and slavery.



What system does that?

Quote:

Ep1429 said:
What people are really complaining about when they say they hate capitalism is NOT capitalism, it’s the Federal Reserve System, which prints money and gives it to the big banks of the world in a corporate cronyism fashion that is almost fascistic.  The Federal Reserve steals a percentage of the value of the dollars in your pocket and gives it to the politically connected so they can enrich themselves, while leaving you paying more for everything you value and want to have, but cannot produce on your own.

That’s the system people hate.



All modern economies use central banks.  They loan money to banks to loan to business and consumers, money which has to get paid back.  Not scary at all if you understand it.  We've had countless discussions about the Federal Reserve here, disproving a lot of the misconceptions.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26922833 - 09/07/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Title says it all.

What are your thoughts on capitalism?




I love capitalism and I reap its benefits everyday.

Everything I need is at it's lowest price and everybody involved in it's production got paid.


--------------------


Edited by Patlal (09/07/20 11:15 AM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26922839 - 09/07/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If a different system offered you more benefits would you love it more than capitalism?


--------------------


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26922845 - 09/07/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
If a different system offered you more benefits would you love it more than capitalism?




Of course.

Better is better.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26922877 - 09/07/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

How about we all divide our money evenly lol? That's probably the ideal world for the radical left :lol:. The only problem with Capitalism is that there's people with super high IQs that know how to bend it to their will. I think we should have like a 500 million dollar limit. People like Jeff bezos shouldn't exist and I honestly think someone needs to terminate the guy because he's never going to stop. They're saying he's going to be a trillionaire within the next 7 or 8 year's. He literally has a seat in our pentagon and is controlling things and not paying taxes. Bill gates is on cnn taking about forced vaccination and trying to tell us what to do although he sells software! These mega billionaires are controlling everything behind the scenes. You can literally control just about anything with enough money.

I think we should destroy these mega billionaires and start a 500 million limit. If every country on the planet decided to do that the world would be a better place. It'll never happen though...


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Shenmue]
    #26922891 - 09/07/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What do you think a "super-high IQ" is?  Just toss out a number.
Additionally, do you believe that Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates have "super high IQs"?
If so, on what are you basing that assessment?

Thanks


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26922997 - 09/07/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Bezos, I'm not sure, but Bill Gates has an IQ around 162, based on his SATs.

IQ is a standardized test, and IQ scores have a pretty clear correlation with SATs, GREs, ACTs, and other standardized tests. The correlation gets fuzzy near the edges, of course, and Bill Gates had, IIRC, 1590 on his SAT. This puts his IQ at 162+.

https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/oldSATIQ.aspx

EDIT: This is also kind of a dumb question, because IQ is only one small piece of the puzzle. There are plenty of very high IQ individuals that are working several minimum wage jobs just trying to keep afloat. Bezos was born into a wealthy family. Bill Gates was born into a wealthy family, to a smaller scale (Gates had high paid lawyers as parents, Bezos' family owned a 40,000 acre ranch).

I also think it's interesting that Gates is being lumped in with Bezos, because Gates is actively running multiple philanthropic schemes, while Bezos is, as far as I can tell, building a Smaug pile. And, of course, Gates is being demonized by people like shenmue for trying to help society with his money.


Edited by Kryptos (09/07/20 01:06 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Shenmue] * 4
    #26923013 - 09/07/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shenmue said:
How about we all divide our money evenly lol? That's probably the ideal world for the radical left :lol:.



No.  It's not.

Quote:

Shenmue said:
I think we should destroy these mega billionaires and start a 500 million limit. If every country on the planet decided to do that the world would be a better place.



I'm not even that extreme.  I'd just like to see their taxes go up above what the rest of us pay.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26923034 - 09/07/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Shenmue said:
How about we all divide our money evenly lol? That's probably the ideal world for the radical left :lol:.



No.  It's not.

Quote:

Shenmue said:
I think we should destroy these mega billionaires and start a 500 million limit. If every country on the planet decided to do that the world would be a better place.



I'm not even that extreme.  I'd just like to see their taxes go up above what the rest of us pay.






Something needs to be done. How can a man that pays no taxes be sitting in our pentagon? How can marijuana be illegal when 70% of the country wants it legalized? It's the super rich people controlling everything. I honestly think the president and politicians have very little power. I've never seen a president do what they promised. These politicians are only there for show and I don't believe their controlling anything important. Instead of rioting over blm why aren't we protesting for the real problems? If a couple million of us did riots over marijuana and mushrooms they would probably be legal within  week's. Why the fuck aren't we doing that? We're literally allowing them to control us. If I had a voice and an audience like joe rogan I would start riots over the war on drugs with millions of people. These celebrities like to talk big game but they do nothing..


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Shenmue]
    #26923157 - 09/07/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I can agree with that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #26923165 - 09/07/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Title says it all.

What are your thoughts on capitalism?




It’s a great idea in theory but it doesn’t work in real life due to human nature. Every society that’s tried it has failed.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26923292 - 09/07/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Title says it all.

What are your thoughts on capitalism?




It’s a great idea in theory but it doesn’t work in real life due to human nature.




On the contrary, capitalism has been built around human nature.  It works because of human nature.  Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.  If you are not a risk taker, you can work for one and earn a salary.


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26923631 - 09/07/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. The past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/07/20 07:16 PM)


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26923644 - 09/07/20 07:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 3
    #26923709 - 09/07/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

So the rich/high industry get socialism and we get cutthroat capitalism?

If industry gets bailout money, each taxpayer/worker in industry should receive a dividend check or some other perk; what Milton referred to as a "negative income tax" or a version thereof.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/07/20 07:53 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26923828 - 09/07/20 09:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.




I believe this is what happened with Venezuela. One industry got too big to fail, got all the government contracts, got all the government assistance to soften the blows, and then the oil prices crashed.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26923855 - 09/07/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.




how do you feel about single payer healthcare?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26923884 - 09/07/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I believe this is what happened with Venezuela. One industry got too big to fail, got all the government contracts, got all the government assistance to soften the blows, and then the oil prices crashed.




According to this article:
Quote:

Venezuela is currently suffering widespread gasoline shortages, with domestic production hamstrung by US sanctions prohibiting the import of vital diluents and spare parts needed to reactivate the country’s refining capacity.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26924214 - 09/08/20 07:28 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I believe the figure I recently read said they are currently producing 10% as much oil as previously.

My feelings on capitalism are you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It's a lot like feudalism in terms of social stratification. The best predictor of your outcome is the situation you were born into.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26924253 - 09/08/20 07:57 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Title says it all.

What are your thoughts on capitalism?




It’s a great idea in theory but it doesn’t work in real life due to human nature.




On the contrary, capitalism has been built around human nature.  It works because of human nature.  Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.  If you are not a risk taker, you can work for one and earn a salary.




Oh my sweet summer child.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26924258 - 09/08/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
But it doesn't end there. If one has no revenue or cash/credit in the bank, you will be out of business....thats a tenet of capitalism. Yet the past bailouts.... are the antithesis of a "free market" yet are now an intricate part of the fractional reserve banking system.

Next time I go belly up financially, I am going to "raise my own debt ceiling" and/or get a bailout from the treasury/tax payer. :cookiemonster:




If your industry that is worth a large percxentage of the economy is going belly up, then the governement should soften the blow.  In any other case, if you should go bankrupt because of a statistic,  you might just be meant to fail.




how do you feel about single payer healthcare?




Let me put it this way, I'm Canadian


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26924304 - 09/08/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, but what about the medical billing industry?  Insurance companies?  They are dead weight but make up a large portion of the economy.  When the U.S. eventually moves to single payer, should these industries be bailed out?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26924363 - 09/08/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Ok, but what about the medical billing industry?  Insurance companies?  They are dead weight but make up a large portion of the economy.  When the U.S. eventually moves to single payer, should these industries be bailed out?




They will crash and burn and adapt to the new reality.

Or...  Medical billing companies could become a billing company for another sector.

Insurance companies can insure something else.

Maybe the goverment can roll out a program to support the laid off employees for a while. Let's say something like unemployment insurance...


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26924693 - 09/08/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I believe this is what happened with Venezuela. One industry got too big to fail, got all the government contracts, got all the government assistance to soften the blows, and then the oil prices crashed.




According to this article:
Quote:

Venezuela is currently suffering widespread gasoline shortages, with domestic production hamstrung by US sanctions prohibiting the import of vital diluents and spare parts needed to reactivate the country’s refining capacity.







Yeah, Venezuela started cannibalizing its own oil infrastructure pretty quickly due to the fact that the biggest oil players basically owned the government. At this point, it would take significant investment just to get their refineries operational again, because of all the copper that's been ripped out of the walls.

Similar things are happening in the US, with banks and oil companies cannibalizing the constituency that makes up their profit base, it's just that the US constituency has more money to squeeze out of them.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26924701 - 09/08/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

When you understand that capitalism is the global hegemon, from militaries to banks to industry to diplomacy to food, you can begin to see why a small country in South America couldn’t stand up to it on oil profits alone.

Saudi Arabia is a fucking monarchy dependent on oil, somehow never in danger of regular US backed coup attempts. Why? They aren’t threatening the status quo. You can literally do 9/11 and get the US to sell you weapons as long as you agree to not threaten capitalism.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26924705 - 09/08/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Venezuela used to be every single oil exec's go to example for why oil production/consumption is good.

When that went down the tubes, they became the communist scapegoat, because they no longer served a purpose in supporting oil dependency.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26924969 - 09/08/20 04:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
On the contrary, capitalism has been built around human nature.  It works because of human nature.  Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.




You're leaving out the fact that capitalism will also make you rich if you were born into a wealthy family and that it will make it extremely difficult to climb your way out of poverty if you were born into a poor family. I assume that by "take risks", you're suggesting opening your own business that appeals to a niche or presently unsatisfied market that isn't already being satisfied. If the risk pays off, then you will not only receive large sums of money, but will also be the only provider of that good or service (a monopoly) due to the fact that it's a niche or previously unsatisfied market. You will then be able to use your extra funds to shut down competition by offering the goods or service cheaper than other businesses who offer the same service or goods, thus securing the monopoly. Poor people (of which there are literally millions in the US) don't have any money with which they can start a business. Starting a business requires legal fees, usually requires renting or buying property from which to run the business, and costs money to acquire resources for your goods or services (or, at the very least, to pay laborers to acquire those resources for you). Since poor people can't start a business on their own, they need to take out a loan from a bank and pay it off with the money they will hopefully earn from their new business. Unfortunately, taking out a loan is extremely difficult because, if you are poor, you have no credit score, and if you have no credit score, the banks are not going to trust you enough to give you a loan. Capitalism doesn't reward people for taking risks. It punishes people for being poor and prevents them from having any economic autonomy whatsoever (including the ability to "take risks" as you're suggesting).

Quote:

Patlal said:
If you are not a risk taker poor, you can are forced to work for one a wealthy person who does absolutely no labor and earn a salary, or you will be evicted from the roof you live under and be left on the streets to starve and die.



There, fixed it for you.


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Edited by Nonagon Infinity (09/08/20 04:40 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26924993 - 09/08/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Capitalism will make you rich if you are willing to take risks and navigate the market to the top.




I forgot to mention this more directly:

What is risk?

For example, did Bill Gates "take a risk" when he dropped out of Harvard and started Microsoft in his parent's garage? By all accounts, he was one of the best students in his class, and his parents were both wealthy professionals. If Microsoft didn't work out, he would have finished his degree at one of the best schools in the world near the top of his class.

Did Jeff Bezos "take a risk" starting Amazon? His family owned a 25,000 acre ranch. If Amazon failed, his father was an oil engineer, his grandfather was a regional director for the Atomic Energy Commission, and he was related to a somewhat famous country singer.

Now, compare those "risks" to some guy making, let's say, median wage (60k), with no debt (so, way above median), with, say, 10k savings (way above median). What are the relative "risks" in our hypothetical median income worker with above average savings and no debt quitting his job to start a business?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26925002 - 09/08/20 05:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26925035 - 09/08/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Venezuela used to be every single oil exec's go to example for why oil production/consumption is good.

When that went down the tubes, they became the communist scapegoat, because they no longer served a purpose in supporting oil dependency.




That’s certainly a big part of it :thumbup:


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 4
    #26925038 - 09/08/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.




Why do you think the US media is so heavily invested in making sure those stories saturate the media landscape?

It’s because class mobility in this country is practically nonexistent. Most rich people inherit their wealth.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26925050 - 09/08/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.




The best one's are at least 50 years old at this point. The one's today are few and far between, capitalists aren't big fans of competition.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26925095 - 09/08/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.



For every "rags to riches" story, there are thousands of "rags to rags" stories. The amount of people who are born into poverty and live their entire lives without ever escaping poverty vastly outnumber the people who are born into poverty and become wealthy.

The fact that a minority of people are able to escape poverty does not justify a system that systematically traps millions of people in poverty.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26925117 - 09/08/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.




Why do you think the US media...




Not everything is about the US.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.



For every "rags to riches" story, there are thousands of "rags to rags" stories. The amount of people who are born into poverty and live their entire lives without ever escaping poverty vastly outnumber the people who are born into poverty and become wealthy.

The fact that a minority of people are able to escape poverty does not justify a system that systematically traps millions of people in poverty.




Everybody can't all be successful. Life isn't fair and genetics either.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.




It’s because class mobility in this country is practically nonexistent.




Again, not everything is about the US.  Most modern countries help the poor go from rags to riches.  It's great for the economy.  Why the US doesn't do it, I couldn't tell you.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26925214 - 09/08/20 07:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The US doesn't do it because we don't do commie things like "basic healthcare" and "basic social safety nets".

Tying healthcare to your job, and removing every social net possible is how you make taking risks extremely costly, and nobody wants to deal with competition.

The flip side is, tying your retirement to the stock market means that rich people don't have to risk their own money when they invest, because there is a large pool of nobodies that buffer their losses with investments in their retirement.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26925266 - 09/08/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The US doesn't do it because we don't do commie things like "basic healthcare" and "basic social safety nets".

Tying healthcare to your job, and removing every social net possible is how you make taking risks extremely costly, and nobody wants to deal with competition.

The flip side is, tying your retirement to the stock market means that rich people don't have to risk their own money when they invest, because there is a large pool of nobodies that buffer their losses with investments in their retirement.




Undercut all the rich people and make them pay for incentives to the poor.  That is what gives the poor a chance in Canada to make it to mid class.  It works wonders too.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26925273 - 09/08/20 08:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Is that capitalism?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26925302 - 09/08/20 08:39 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Everybody can't all be successful. Life isn't fair and genetics either.




You're creating a false dichotomy, Patlal, which is a logical fallacy. The rejection of capitalism does not somehow imply a system in which everyone is successful. There are shades of grey between modern capitalism and "everyone is rich".

Besides, I didn't criticize capitalism for not allowing everyone to be successful. I criticized capitalism for being extremely oppressive to poor people. There may be economic systems which, while still allowing for variance in wealth (i.e., some are wealthy, some are not), are not as oppressive towards poor people.

I'd also like to point out that treating social hierarchies (whether economic or genetic) as somehow sacred, essential, or just as a "law of nature" is a fascist belief. Fascists are obsessed with hierarchy.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 3
    #26925880 - 09/09/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.




Why do you think the US media...




Not everything is about the US.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.



For every "rags to riches" story, there are thousands of "rags to rags" stories. The amount of people who are born into poverty and live their entire lives without ever escaping poverty vastly outnumber the people who are born into poverty and become wealthy.

The fact that a minority of people are able to escape poverty does not justify a system that systematically traps millions of people in poverty.




Everybody can't all be successful. Life isn't fair and genetics either.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
And yet there are countless rags to riches out there.




It’s because class mobility in this country is practically nonexistent.




Again, not everything is about the US.  Most modern countries help the poor go from rags to riches.  It's great for the economy.  Why the US doesn't do it, I couldn't tell you.





The degree to which other nations have better class mobility is directly because of how LESS capitalist they are relative to America.

If capitalism was the best way to go from rags to riches then Indonesia or Singapore would have the largest middle class in the world. But they don’t.

The labor movement and socialism are why capitalism has been smoothed out to allow some modicum of social democracy, alleviating the burdens of poverty.

Praising capitalism for the standard of living that’s been a direct result of stifling capitalism is like congratulating police for killing less people because city council made them wear body cameras.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26925951 - 09/09/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Dont know much about India's government...are they capialist?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/07/12/report-india-lifted-271-million-people-out-of-poverty-in-a-decade-infographic/amp/

The United Nations Development Programme has released its 2019 Multidimensional Poverty Index which highlights the number of people around the world experiencing poverty at regional, national and subnational levels. The term “multidimensional poverty” goes a step further than simply focusing on a lack of finances. It encompasses other factors such as poor health or malnutrition, lack of clean water or electricity, poor quality of work and limited education access in order to provide a broader picture of poverty’s true reality. The index found that across 101 countries, 1.3 billion – 23% – are multidimensionally poor with half that number aged under 18.

Despite those grim figures, some countries are successfully tackling multidimensional poverty and India is the most notable example. The report found that over 640 million people across India were in multidimensional poverty in 2005/2006 and that fell steeply to slightly more than 365.55 million by 2016/2017 – an impressive reduction of 271 million. Neighboring Bangladesh also made strides in reducing its poverty numbers with a reduction of 19 million between 2004 and 2014.


In recent years, India has embarked on several ambitious programs aimed at improving living standard such as improving electricity access and extending sanitation coverage. According to the World Bank, 70% of the population had electricity access in 2007 and that increased to 93% by 2017. Before Prime Minister Narendra Modi came to power, just under 40% of the Indian population had access to a household toilet. He vowed to change that and billions of dollars were invested in improving sanitation under the Swachh Bharat Abhiyan (“Clean India”) campaign which started in October 2014. Today, India’s Ministry of Drinking Water and Sanitation states that basic sanitation coverage across the country has increased to 99.45% as of July 2019.


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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #26926420 - 09/09/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Let's put it this way:

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
In recent years, India has embarked on several ambitious programs aimed at improving living standard such as improving electricity access and extending sanitation coverage. According to the World Bank, 70% of the population had electricity access in 2007 and that increased to 93% by 2017. Before Prime Minister Narendra Modi came to power, just under 40% of the Indian population had access to a household toilet. He vowed to change that and billions of dollars were invested in improving sanitation under the Swachh Bharat Abhiyan (“Clean India”) campaign which started in October 2014. Today, India’s Ministry of Drinking Water and Sanitation states that basic sanitation coverage across the country has increased to 99.45% as of July 2019.




This entire paragraph is an example of explicitly not capitalism. Capitalism didn't solve those problems, the government stepping in and funding infrastructure did. Not exactly "free enterprise".

Interestingly, this is also why rural US has electricity and phone service. The government stepped in and funded it in the 1960s. Often through additional taxes which show up on your electric and phone bill. Like the USF (Universal Service Fees) tax that's at the bottom of your phone bill!


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26926863 - 09/09/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Another service not strictly related to capitalism that I like is running water. Socialized water.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26926867 - 09/09/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Another service not strictly related to capitalism that I like is running water. Socialized water.




Fucking Commie.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 5
    #26927064 - 09/09/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26927085 - 09/09/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

How many jobs did Clean India create? % of government contracts awarded to how many corporations in India? There are no similarities?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/09/20 08:11 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26927093 - 09/09/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever poli term (welfare state), my point was .
more about the 200 million out of poverty. Impressive.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26927123 - 09/09/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

From my limited research, it appears that the majority of the project was done by government giving people money to build their own sanitation networks, as well as people being employed directly by the government. A minority of the funds was used for corporate initiatives.

Reminds me of the tuberculosis quarantine houses during the Great Depression. Used to be, the US government would hire young men that were out of work, provide them with materials, and pay them a decent wage to throw up quarantine shacks in people's yards when a case was found that could not be isolated from the rest of the family.

Nowadays, the US government is more like "good luck, don't forget funerals are expensive lol".


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26927152 - 09/09/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Seems like thats the line of thinking our governemnt desperately needs now. We dont have a similar stat in the ballpark.

When I die, I want to be chummed and dumped in the ocean.....so cost of woodchipper.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26927161 - 09/09/20 08:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26927247 - 09/09/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Would a government be able to sell a $1 burger or put the latest tech in our hands? I dont think so.




Would there be less factory farming, less water wasted on raising unnecessary amounts of livestock, and less damage to the environment from the methane produced by cows if we didn't believe that $1 burgers were such a great deal? Absolutely.

Would there be less exploitation of child workers overseas, greater abundance of copper, and less exploitation of underpaid foreign workers who do physical labor for about 18 hours per day in factories where they literally have nets to prevent workers from committing suicide if we didn't believe that having the latest iPhone was a necessity? Absolutely.

Indeed, capitalism provides us with $1 burgers and the latest technology at an affordable price, but at what cost?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26927655 - 09/10/20 05:50 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26927852 - 09/10/20 08:51 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism takes away genuineness. When you can't trust what a person is saying. It makes the priority money, not helping the person. It causes one to be skeptic by anyone new approaching you. who are you? Why the fuck are you talking to me? Get the shit out of your mouth. When one learns the world this way, it's unhealthy. It shows natural distrust. It's built into the system. That's a a byproduct of capitalism. I don't want to live in the system that requires one to distrust fellow mankind.
Thus, one must be skeptical of everything that has an industry. Because it already has self interest.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26927964 - 09/10/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?



Do I need to give you an example of a more efficient economic system in order to criticize capitalism?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26927992 - 09/10/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?



Do I need to give you an example of a more efficient economic system in order to criticize capitalism?




Offereing solutions rather than bitching about the problem is a much more productive thing to do.  Otherwise you're just wasting our time


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26928045 - 09/10/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Even if the solution were Communism, we're not going to be changing to that anytime soon, so we're still "wasting our time".


--------------------
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26928053 - 09/10/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

And we already know that communism doesn't scale.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 4
    #26928072 - 09/10/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Offereing solutions rather than bitching about the problem is a much more productive thing to do.  Otherwise you're just wasting our time



Calling my criticism "bitching" is an obvious attempt to suppress (or, at least, dismiss) criticism. Criticism is not a waste of time. The first step towards solving a problem is identifying the problem, and I have identified multiple problems with capitalism in this thread, so I am contributing to a productive discussion.

Thus far, I have identified that capitalism is extremely unfair to poor people, that it leads to the exploitation of poor laborers, that it makes it extremely difficult to escape poverty, that it leads to the destruction of our climate for profit, and more. If your best response to these criticisms is "well, you can't come up with anything better," then you are "wasting our time" just as much as I am.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928158 - 09/10/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The US and other nations aren't even practicing 'capitalism' at this point in my opinion. How can I criticize a system which isn't even being implemented?  I can't, but I can point out all of the flaws of the existing crony capitalism at work today. I can also suggest the regulations of the current system to make it better for the bottom 80% of the population.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 1
    #26928198 - 09/10/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Worker co-ops.  How would worker co-ops not solve 95% of the problems?

Sprinkle in a higher premium on informed consumerism also.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928229 - 09/10/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Offereing solutions rather than bitching about the problem is a much more productive thing to do.  Otherwise you're just wasting our time



Calling my criticism "bitching" is an obvious attempt to suppress (or, at least, dismiss) criticism. Criticism is not a waste of time. The first step towards solving a problem is identifying the problem, and I have identified multiple problems with capitalism in this thread, so I am contributing to a productive discussion.

Thus far, I have identified that capitalism is extremely unfair to poor people, that it leads to the exploitation of poor laborers, that it makes it extremely difficult to escape poverty, that it leads to the destruction of our climate for profit, and more. If your best response to these criticisms is "well, you can't come up with anything better," then you are "wasting our time" just as much as I am.




We have already identified all the problems with capitalism decades ago.  You're just repeating them.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26928269 - 09/10/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The problems have gotten far worse over the decades.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 2
    #26928277 - 09/10/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The US and other nations aren't even practicing 'capitalism' at this point in my opinion. How can I criticize a system which isn't even being implemented?  I can't, but I can point out all of the flaws of the existing crony capitalism at work today. I can also suggest the regulations of the current system to make it better for the bottom 80% of the population.



I guess that's part of the problem with debating capitalism in the first place: people generally have different definitions of the term (the word "socialism" is even more fucked). Just so I know we're talking about the same thing, what's the difference between "capitalism" and "crony capitalism"?

On your note about regulation, I don't have a lot of hope in that regard. We are well past the point of regulating the current system. The current system is what got us to the position we are in today: civilians of poor nations ravaged by US weaponry, millions without access to affordable healthcare, a one-party democracy that favors the interests of wealthy campaign donors over policy, millions in poverty, students trapped with insurmountable debts for merely wanting to receive a decent education, a rapidly changing climate that will make large portions of Earth uninhabitable by humans, the subjugation of poorer nations by the US for cheap access to foreign goods, the hoarding of the majority of earth's wealth by an extreme minority of people, and more. These injustices are not examples of a global capitalist empire failing to do what it's supposed to do. These injustices are examples of a global capitalist empire behaving exactly as it's supposed to.

Our system is extremely oppressive and is extremely resistant to change, so we can't afford to wait for our current system to fix our problems. Exxon knew the impact their factories would have on the concentration of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere all the way back in the eighties, and so did the US government. Our system knew where we were headed and didn't do anything to stop it, and now we're at a point where New Orleans is almost underwater. Even the US electing a "left-leaning" candidate like Obama didn't address the bombing of civilians in the middle east (if anything, his administration perpetuated the violence started by the Bush administration). Those are just two examples, but I hope they show that it's too late for us to patiently play by the empire's rules. We need things to change now, or a lot of people are going to die unnecessary deaths, and I don't mean that in a hyperbolic sense at all. We can't just wait for another election and hope that we'll get the right senators, or the right president. Our current system does not have a reputation for electing politicians that solve our problems: it has a reputation for electing politicians that exacerbate them. We don't need reform. We need a revolution.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928287 - 09/10/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?



Do I need to give you an example of a more efficient economic system in order to criticize capitalism?




Greetings and welcome to the poli forum! Greatness awaits you.

No you dont, and your criticisms have been noted; like Patial said we are awaiting examples.

We as citizens could fundamentally change the economy without any legislative hurdles, by simply managing wants. Yeah right, whose gonna do that? The  immense wants within America creates that market.


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/10/20 01:37 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26928293 - 09/10/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
We have already identified all the problems with capitalism decades ago.  You're just repeating them.



Capitalism is a continuously evolving economic system. We have more information (and by that, I mean hard data) about the results of capitalism right now than we did decades ago.

The moment we believe we understand everything there is to know about a system is the moment that system becomes status-quo. If I tell you that capitalism is oppressive and your response is "we already knew that it was oppressive, so there's nothing more to discuss here," then you are defending an oppressive system from criticism. Is this really the hill you want to die on?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26928303 - 09/10/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
And we already know that communism doesn't scale.




I dunno man the Soviets went from an agrarian society to an industrial superpower in a few decades, same with China.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26928317 - 09/10/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know either.  Enlil once said something like communism can't work because capitalism does too much to prevent it from working.


--------------------
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928318 - 09/10/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
We have already identified all the problems with capitalism decades ago.  You're just repeating them.



Capitalism is a continuously evolving economic system. We have more information (and by that, I mean hard data) about the results of capitalism right now than we did decades ago.

The moment we believe we understand everything there is to know about a system is the moment that system becomes status-quo. If I tell you that capitalism is oppressive and your response is "we already knew that it was oppressive, so there's nothing more to discuss here," then you are defending an oppressive system from criticism. Is this really the hill you want to die on?




So you got solutions or not?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26928319 - 09/10/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the greeting. I sincerely appreciate it.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
We as citizens could fundamentally change the economy without any legislative hurdles, by simply managing wants. Yeah right, whose gonna do that? The  immense wants within America creates that market.



"Our wants" (assuming you mean consumer desires) are often completely manufactured by the ruling class. Wealthy company owners (the ruling class) will spend unspeakable amounts of money on psychologically manipulative marketing campaigns that are highly effective at persuading consumers to purchase things they don't need. In other words, "our wants" are really the wants of the ruling class. Your desire to buy a $1 burger from McDonald's is simply the means through which McDonald's executives satisfy their desires of you giving them money, and they have put a significant amount of effort into convincing you that buying a $1 burger from them is a really good idea.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928323 - 09/10/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, it comes down to choice, there can be persuasive ads and so forth- but eating that nasty burger could be a need to someone else.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26928324 - 09/10/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
So you got solutions or not?



In short, the solution I'd propose is revolution. I think the global capitalist empire we live in ought to be dismantled, and I believe that laborers all around the world should own the means of their production, which is an idea completely antithetical to capitalism.

However, I'd also like to point out that, even if I didn't have any solution to propose, this lack of a proposal does not somehow invalidate the criticisms I've put forward. So, in asking me whether I have solutions or not, are you now admitting that you agree with me? Are you now admitting that capitalism is an unjust system?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #26928342 - 09/10/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Yes, it comes down to choice, there can be persuasive ads and so forth- but eating that nasty burger could be a need to someone else.



Indeed, and eating a $1 burger is often a need for American citizens. This is because they live under an oppressive system in which the wealthy people who run the companies they work for (who do no labor as far as producing the goods they sell) are allowed to pay them such low wages that they can't afford any food other than a $1 burger.

I anticipate that some might respond to this point by claiming that workers ought to just choose a higher paying job, so I'll respond to that before it even comes up: laborers are not in a strong enough position to bargain for better wages. In a capitalist society, money is bargaining power, and poor people have no money, which means they have no power to bargain for better wages. Furthermore, jobs that pay a decent living (which would give poor people more power) are most often locked behind a college degree, which is not a financial possibility for someone who has no money and no credit score (i.e. for a poor person), so poverty is literally a trap. In a capitalist system, the wealthy are extremely interested in keeping poor people powerless, because they need poor laborers to produce the goods that their wealth is derived from.

The fact that some people need to buy a $1 burger to survive is not a point in favor of capitalism: if anything, this fact demonstrates precisely why capitalism is such an unjust economic system.


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Edited by Nonagon Infinity (09/10/20 01:56 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928351 - 09/10/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
So you got solutions or not?



In short, the solution I'd propose is revolution. I think the global capitalist empire we live in ought to be dismantled, and I believe that laborers all around the world should own the means of their production, which is an idea completely antithetical to capitalism.

However, I'd also like to point out that, even if I didn't have any solution to propose, this lack of a proposal does not somehow invalidate the criticisms I've put forward. So, in asking me whether I have solutions or not, are you now admitting that you agree with me? Are you now admitting that capitalism is an unjust system?




I've already said that we've known the problems of capitalism for decades. I've agreed with that long ago.  Criticism towards capitalism has become a gigantic echo chamber.  Everybody repeats the same arguments without proposing anything to solve the problems.

1: Admitting there is problem => Done
2: Identifying the problems => Done
3: Discussing the problems => Done
4: Offering solutions => ........Still waiting.....

All everybody has been doing is reliving step 3 like an endless groundhog day on a time loop


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Edited by Patlal (09/10/20 01:59 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26928357 - 09/10/20 02:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
All everybody has been doing is reliving step 3 like an endless groundhog day on a time loop



Yet, when I offer a solution: a worker's revolution in which the laborers of the world acquire the means of their own production, you mysteriously ignore it...


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928380 - 09/10/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think a worker controlled economy has any momentum at all.  It would need to gain traction and a livelihood before "revolution" could effectively occur.  Christ how long did Bernie spew about socialized healthcare and that hardly caught on.  Maybe there isn't enough demand for it.  Maybe there would be for a worker controlled economy.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 1
    #26928397 - 09/10/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Soviet Union solved the problems of capitalism pretty well. Of course, this was not okay with capitalists, who proceeded to create the entire US military-industrial complex to fight against it.

That's one of the biggest problems with a non-capitalist society in the modern world. Capitalists will dump money into ensuring you fail. Then, you're either paraded around as an example of why your system is inferior, or if you successfully crack down on the capitalists, you're paraded around as an example of why your system is oppressive.

What we need is a rebellion against Supply-side Jesus.

Now, the problem with that is that if you stop spending and start saving money, capitalists simply raise your rent/medical bills to prevent you from doing so. If you don't buy their burger, they'll simply charge you the difference in the stuff that you still buy.

I've toyed with the idea of a worker's co-op, basically a small economy contained within a self-sufficient building or city block, but if you look into the history of those, they tend to get invaded by the police.

At this point, I think the best solution is guillotines.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928419 - 09/10/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

But communism, that is Soviet Union communism, is oppressive.  Its governmental takeover of the economy.  As in government officials own and manage workplaces.  A worker co-op is direct democracy within a working organization.  There could still be markets within a co-op economy.  No markets within Soviet Union communism.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26928421 - 09/10/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

1. Labor unions in all industries.
2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations.
5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs.
6. Free college and cancel student debt.
7. Public employment for the unemployed.
8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.

All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26928422 - 09/10/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I don't think a worker controlled economy has any momentum at all.  It would need to gain traction and a livelihood before "revolution" could effectively occur.  Christ how long did Bernie spew about socialized healthcare and that hardly caught on.  Maybe there isn't enough demand for it.  Maybe there would be for a worker controlled economy.



I think you're downplaying how popular Bernie's policies actually are. First of all, the policies he's proposed for the US are actual policy in other countries. So, they are popular enough in other regions of the world to become actual policy (though maybe not in the US). Saying that socialized healthcare "hardly caught on" isn't accurate. A significant portion of the US population supported Sanders during the primary elections - he even received the majority of votes in several states. The problem isn't that his policies were unpopular. The problem was that he was branded as an extremist by the ruling class (such slander came from both Democrats and Republicans, both of which are parties that are interested in preserving capitalism). The only reason his policies looked extreme was because the policies he proposed stood in opposition to the status quo (even though, as I've mentioned, they're not really extreme in a global context, since other successful nations on Earth have adopted the same sorts of policies Sanders proposed). Another factor that made it difficult for Sanders to earn the nomination was that he was up against Joe Biden who, along with appearing more reasonable (mostly due to the fact that he didn't challenge the status-quo capitalist empire that rules us), had the celebrity factor of being Obama's VP.

I think the reason policies like the ones Sanders was proposing aren't enacted in the US is precisely because we don't live in a worker controlled economy. We live in an economy controlled by absurdly wealthy capitalists. In a system where capital is power, a wealthy business owner can use his capital to suppress a candidate who proposes policies that might dismantle the current system.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 1
    #26928441 - 09/10/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
1. Labor unions in all industries.
2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations.
5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs.
6. Free college and cancel student debt.
7. Public employment for the unemployed.
8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.




Now you're talking my language (not sure that I agree with number 4, but that's a different debate). These policies all stand in direct opposition to our oppressive capitalist system, which is precisely why capitalists have engaged in a massive propaganda campaign to create a fear of these policies. Most of the time, the criticism I see of policies like these comes down to "but that's socialism". If your biggest criticism of the above policies is simply that they aren't capitalism, then you've pretty much shown your hand.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928444 - 09/10/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I don't think a worker controlled economy has any momentum at all.  It would need to gain traction and a livelihood before "revolution" could effectively occur.  Christ how long did Bernie spew about socialized healthcare and that hardly caught on.  Maybe there isn't enough demand for it.  Maybe there would be for a worker controlled economy.



I think you're downplaying how popular Bernie's policies actually are. First of all, the policies he's proposed for the US are actual policy in other countries. So, they are popular enough in other regions of the world to become actual policy (though maybe not in the US). Saying that socialized healthcare "hardly caught on" isn't accurate. A significant portion of the US population supported Sanders during the primary elections - he even received the majority of votes in several states. The problem isn't that his policies were unpopular. The problem was that he was branded as an extremist by the ruling class (such slander came from both Democrats and Republicans, both of which are parties that are interested in preserving capitalism). The only reason his policies looked extreme was because the policies he proposed stood in opposition to the status quo (even though, as I've mentioned, they're not really extreme in a global context, since other successful nations on Earth have adopted the same sorts of policies Sanders proposed). Another factor that made it difficult for Sanders to earn the nomination was that he was up against Joe Biden who, along with appearing more reasonable (mostly due to the fact that he didn't challenge the status-quo capitalist empire that rules us), had the celebrity factor of being Obama's VP.

I think the reason policies like the ones Sanders was proposing aren't enacted in the US is precisely because we don't live in a worker controlled economy. We live in an economy controlled by absurdly wealthy capitalists. In a system where capital is power, a wealthy business owner can use his capital to suppress a candidate who proposes policies that might dismantle the current system.





A predominantly worker controlled economy is the far greater achievement than a socialist paradise where the peasantry beg and beg The Elite until agreeable yet temporary measures are enacted.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman]
    #26928447 - 09/10/20 02:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
1. Labor unions in all industries.
2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations.
5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs.
6. Free college and cancel student debt.
7. Public employment for the unemployed.
8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.

All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.




Cut those two and I'd agree. Economic protectionism breeds complacency and inefficiency. Removing immigration only promotes the same. There is absolutely no need for a first world country to have a portion of its population engaged in primary economic activities, which are inherently less valuable, and only serve to create an underclass in a society by stifling the growth of specific individuals to make them good shit-tier laborers.

Nobody should want to be a farmer or a coal miner or a day laborer. Not to say those aren't valuable industries, but they're the kind of industry that should be fixed through innovation. Which limiting immigration also limits.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman]
    #26928452 - 09/10/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
1. Labor unions in all industries.
2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations.
5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs.
6. Free college and cancel student debt.
7. Public employment for the unemployed.
8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.

All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.




Now were talking solutions!

Well, more like social programs that changes nothing about capitalism but it's a great start.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26928465 - 09/10/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What is the end game of the socialist paradise ?  Keep the Elite at bay ?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26928475 - 09/10/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

qman said:
1. Labor unions in all industries.
2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations.
5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs.
6. Free college and cancel student debt.
7. Public employment for the unemployed.
8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.

All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.




Now were talking solutions!

Well, more like social programs that changes nothing about capitalism but it's a great start.



1. Labor unions are antithetical to capitalism, which is why wealthy capitalists engage in aggressive anti-union propaganda.
2. Medicare for all is a social program, and is also antithetical to capitalism. The capitalist solution to healthcare is to privatize it and to trust the market to regulate itself.
5. Taxing wealthy people to fund social programs is also antithetical to capitalism. Social programs are when a government provides care (this might mean healthcare, food banks, universal basic income, education, etc.) for its citizens. A capitalist would prefer that private businesses provide healthcare, food, and basic income to citizens.
6. Free college doesn't really mean it's free. It means that college is paid for by the government, which is antithetical to capitalism. Capitalists prefer that colleges are run like private businesses, whose wealthy owners collect profits from students.
7. Public employment is also antithetical to capitalism. Capitalists prefer for private businesses to have a monopoly on the employment market.
8. Capitalists believe that the government should use taxpayer money to support private businesses. Therefore, preventing bailouts for Wall Street and private industries is completely antithetical to capitalism.

Almost all of the policies qman suggested here are antithetical to capitalism, so the claim that they "change nothing about capitalism" doesn't hold any water. They directly challenge capitalism.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26928485 - 09/10/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the end game of the socialist paradise ?  Keep the Elite at bay ?




Keep more of the value you produce, instead of giving it to your boss and landlord. In other words, when productivity increases, your life should improve. Either through increased free time or increased number of toys.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928492 - 09/10/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the end game of the socialist paradise ?  Keep the Elite at bay ?




Keep more of the value you produce, instead of giving it to your boss and landlord. In other words, when productivity increases, your life should improve. Either through increased free time or increased number of toys.





So keep The Elite at bay.  Ok then.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26928494 - 09/10/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't know either.  Enlil once said something like communism can't work because capitalism does too much to prevent it from working.




“We live under capitalism, it’s power seems inescapable. But so too did the divine right of kings.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26928505 - 09/10/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So keep The Elite at bay.  Ok then.



I'd say keeping the elite at bay is a good thing.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 1
    #26928512 - 09/10/20 03:17 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It's not really keeping the elite at bay, it's keeping the predatory tendencies of the elite in check. Nothing wrong with being one of elite. The problems start when you use your power to oppress those weaker than you.

There's nothing wrong with using your brain and money to make life better for other people. The problem is when you inherit a bunch of money and maintain it by making life worse for people.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928521 - 09/10/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
1. Labor unions in all industries.
2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations.
5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs.
6. Free college and cancel student debt.
7. Public employment for the unemployed.
8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.

All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.




Cut those two and I'd agree. Economic protectionism breeds complacency and inefficiency. Removing immigration only promotes the same. There is absolutely no need for a first world country to have a portion of its population engaged in primary economic activities, which are inherently less valuable, and only serve to create an underclass in a society by stifling the growth of specific individuals to make them good shit-tier laborers.

Nobody should want to be a farmer or a coal miner or a day laborer. Not to say those aren't valuable industries, but they're the kind of industry that should be fixed through innovation. Which limiting immigration also limits.




I don't think manufacturing cars, high tech products, medications and many other items is below a first world worker. What can't China produce today?

I also don't think a US worker producing cloths, furniture or food is below a first world worker. What type of work do you think uneducated/unskilled US workers are equipped to do that's so important?

There was a time in the US when low-skilled labor had very strong real wages, there's no reason why that can't happen again. That was also a time when immigration was very limited and put more value on that labor.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 2
    #26928546 - 09/10/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Capitalism, where do you stand?




Bottom of the pyramid.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26928565 - 09/10/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.

Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.


--------------------
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 2
    #26928566 - 09/10/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
1. Labor unions in all industries.
2. Medicare For All
3. Economic tariffs from all imports
4. Halt all legal/illegal immigration and start deportations.
5. Hike taxes on wealthy to fund social programs.
6. Free college and cancel student debt.
7. Public employment for the unemployed.
8. Halt bailouts for Wall Street and private industries.

All of those policies would reverse the massive and historic wealth inequality currently in the US today. People should have no issue with bringing the distribution back to the 1950-60's, which is considered the best economic years in US history.




Cut those two and I'd agree. Economic protectionism breeds complacency and inefficiency. Removing immigration only promotes the same. There is absolutely no need for a first world country to have a portion of its population engaged in primary economic activities, which are inherently less valuable, and only serve to create an underclass in a society by stifling the growth of specific individuals to make them good shit-tier laborers.

Nobody should want to be a farmer or a coal miner or a day laborer. Not to say those aren't valuable industries, but they're the kind of industry that should be fixed through innovation. Which limiting immigration also limits.




I don't think manufacturing cars, high tech products, medications and many other items is below a first world worker. What can't China produce today?

I also don't think a US worker producing cloths, furniture or food is below a first world worker. What type of work do you think uneducated/unskilled US workers are equipped to do that's so important?

There was a time in the US when low-skilled labor had very strong real wages, there's no reason why that can't happen again. That was also a time when immigration was very limited and put more value on that labor.




Honestly, I don't think there should be such a thing as an "uneducated/unskilled US worker". I fundamentally believe that statement to be oxymoronic, and a symptom of capitalism. I recognize that everybody has their own strengths, and that not everyone can, for example, do steady state calculations in their head. I realize that. However, the point of education is, more or less, exposing someone to a large variety of opportunity, so that they can find their strength, and works towards that.

That's the value of a college education. That's the value of college as an institution. It's not the degree and the classes, but the sheer access to the foremost experts in virtually any field. If you really like medieval art history, you're going to be hard pressed to find someone that can teach you in real, day to day, life. But you can easily go to the art and history departments of the local university. Now you may think that medieval art history is a bullshit waste of time, but even if the only thing it accomplishes is making the kind of person that likes to see crudely drawn battles that lack any sort of perspective happy, there is value in that. In the sense that there is an inherent value to someone being happy.

This is also what actual diversity is. Lots of people think that "diversity" means a certain percentage of black people or asians. No, that's diversity to someone that doesn't understand the concept. Diversity is when you bring together groups of people that have vastly different life experiences and approach problems from a variety of ways. It adds opinions that can further understanding of the problem. It's more tools in the toolbox. Diversity is the antithesis of "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".

The statistic that continually pisses me off to no end, the one that truly causes a cold rage in my heart, is the fact that most people don't like their job. To an extent, I understand why that is. It comes down to two things: bills and lack of education. Now, assuming we implement your points (1) (6) (7) and (8), we solve both of those issues. The guy that loves nothing more than to write shitty poetry no longer has to spend a third of their life at the job factory. Maybe, given some basic social safety nets and access to people that write good poetry, Mr. Shit-poet can use his time to practice until his poetry isn't quite so shitty. Or maybe not. Maybe it stays shitty, and all that it does is make the guy writing it happy. Works for mopey teens. He doesn't need much: roof, food, pen, paper. That's 30k a year, if we're being very generous with the roof and food parts. That's a fairly small amount of money to make someone very happy. It's also an example of successful education, because someone figured out what they love. I would not consider someone that knows what they love and their purpose in life to be "uneducated".

"Uneducated" and "unskilled" is someone who is kind of drifting through life, anywhere the wind blows doesn't really matter. They don't have a goal, apart from clocking in 40 at the job factory to live another day. Or they do what their parents/pastor/authority figure told them to do, not because they want to do it, but because that's what they were told.

Personally, I shit on primary economics because I cannot think of anything more boring in life. The flip side is, someone who really likes to dig coal, or farm, or build cars, can do that by choice. People that don't want to should not be expected to do that because the market demands it. Even more so, people that do it for fun should not be relied upon to do it as efficiently as possible, so support a society. There are people that like building mining/farming rigs that can do the work cheaper, faster, and better.

Tariffs and immigration limits serve only to create artificial market demand, while limiting the diversity of opinions that can solve the problems that face society. That's how you end up with someone that's a coal miner only because daddy was a coal miner and grandpappy was a coal miner before that.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26928569 - 09/10/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.

Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.




This is true for any dominant economic system that seeks to aggressively propagate itself.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928581 - 09/10/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
It's not really keeping the elite at bay, it's keeping the predatory tendencies of the elite in check. Nothing wrong with being one of elite. The problems start when you use your power to oppress those weaker than you.

There's nothing wrong with using your brain and money to make life better for other people. The problem is when you inherit a bunch of money and maintain it by making life worse for people.





In LOTR Saurmon's ring was not destroyed but it stuck around along with his dormant evil.  Similarly, socialism and it's benefits to the exploited working class can keep evil at bay.  Yet the only satisfying conclusion is to destroy the ring altogether.  Banish The Elite for all eternity.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26928614 - 09/10/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

There is an interesting Russian book called The Last Ringbearer. It has never been released in English, to my knowledge, due to copyright issues, but it retells the story of LOTR from the perspective of Mordor.

The perspective is not one of evil, but one of a land that is throwing off the chains of magical oppression (by the elves) in an effort to industrialize as a constitutional monarchy.

The problem with "Banish the Elite for all eternity" is that now you must devise a method to seek out and kill all people that are "elite", and then continue to destroy anyone that becomes "elite" (whatever that means).


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928642 - 09/10/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

That sounds pretty fucking awesome.  Get a fresh perspective in there. 

The Elite must be the ones who exploit the working class.  They are the owning class then.  The ones the workers work for.  Isn't this what people mean when they say Capitalism sucks, The capitalist being the man with the coin who enslaves a bunch of workers to do his or her bidding.  The anti christ to a worker co-op.

Is this not the case?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26928667 - 09/10/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
That sounds pretty fucking awesome.  Get a fresh perspective in there. 

The Elite must be the ones who exploit the working class.  They are the owning class then.  The ones the workers work for.  Isn't this what people mean when they say Capitalism sucks, The capitalist being the man with the coin who enslaves a bunch of workers to do his or her bidding.  The anti christ to a worker co-op.

Is this not the case?



I don't believe that wealthy people have an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers, but I will say that our capitalist system doesn't do anything to stop wealthy people from doing so (in fact, it rewards such behavior with more capital, more power, more wealth). There's nothing evil about being wealthy, but people with absurd amounts of wealth working within a system that allows wealth to be used to exploit and oppress is an unfair combination.

Phrased as a question: Wealthy people don't have an inherent drive to exploit and oppress poor people, but if you were a wealthy person living within our current system, why wouldn't you behave that way? The problem isn't wealth: the problem is our system itself, which rewards wealthy people for using their wealth to subjugate others.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928674 - 09/10/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
There is an interesting Russian book called The Last Ringbearer. It has never been released in English, to my knowledge, due to copyright issues, but it retells the story of LOTR from the perspective of Mordor.




I can't speak about the quality of this translation, but I did find one here. This book sounds super interesting, and I'll try to give it a read (if the translation is any good).


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928687 - 09/10/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I don't believe that wealthy people have an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers, but I will say that our capitalist system doesn't do anything to stop wealthy people from doing so (in fact, it rewards such behavior with more capital, more power, more wealth). There's nothing evil about being wealthy, but people with absurd amounts of wealth working within a system that allows wealth to be used to exploit and oppress is an unfair combination.

Phrased as a question: Wealthy people don't have an inherent drive to exploit and oppress poor people, but if you were a wealthy person living within our current system, why wouldn't you behave that way? The problem isn't wealth: the problem is our system itself, which rewards wealthy people for using their wealth to subjugate others.





How is there not an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers when the system rewards such behavior with more capital, power, and wealth.  I mean that just makes no sense to me bro. 

If you want to put a little duct tape on the problem then go right ahead obviously.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26928697 - 09/10/20 05:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think this is the best thread I've made.  This discussion is an example of what I was trying to do with my UC forum back in the day.  Kudos to you all


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26928754 - 09/10/20 06:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Great post, I agree with much of it but want to point out that agriculture is not an uneducated/low skill field anymore, if it ever was.  Indeed, the world is sorely in need of an agricultural paradigm shift which won't be brought about without educated minds putting serious thought into the issue


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 3
    #26928788 - 09/10/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I wish there was an easier way to tell someone that “socialism” doesn’t have to mean unreasonably high taxes but instead that their taxes can actually go towards things that benefit them


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26928798 - 09/10/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
How is there not an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers when the system rewards such behavior with more capital, power, and wealth.  I mean that just makes no sense to me bro.



Exploitation and oppression isn't inherent in societies that have wealthy people. Exploitation and oppression is inherent in capitalist societies that have wealthy people.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26928818 - 09/10/20 06:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Here is my view of capitalism...

First and foremost, capitalism works.  It has grown the global economy into a powerhouse.  Most people have a job, most people earn a salary, some succeed, a few makes it big.  Capitalism gives entrepreneurs to give it a shot.  Even if it fails, you can try again.  It also lifted hundreds of million of people out of poverty.

It is a flawed system.  You can put band aids on it whenever you need too but you'll never heal the wound.  Constant governmental supervision is needed to absorb the cost of it.  Which, in theory makes it an even better system because you can compensate for it's shortcomings.

The better you address the negative impacts of capitalism with socialism, the healthier you will grow your country up to a point.  If you try too hard, you will hurt the country because lifting the safety net too high will prevent some of getting very rich which will reduce tax revue, which will make to safety net unaffordable.

Capitalsim and socialism is a balancing act.  A very moody balancing act.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 2
    #26928826 - 09/10/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism is inherently predatory and antithetical to meritocracy despite much propaganda to the contrary.  The system bakes in cumulative advantage via inherited capital.  It is hard for people in general to imagine a society not centered around exploitation and rent-seeking behavior because almost everyone alive has been born and raised in nothing but.  This, combined with the myth of capitalism's advantage in innovation makes it seem as though anything better is pie in the sky, magical thinking.  People think this even though they can see with their own eyes the number of humans who do charitable work or giving despite meager resources of their own.  Capitalism is fantastic at harnessing the power of human greed but humans aren't only greedy.  People are motivated by other impulses as well and we do ourselves a disservice by elevating greed above all others.  Any replacement for capitalism will have to account for and make use of greed as well but must harness the kinder behavioral traits for which humans are also known.  Alternatively, we can just continue to elevate psychopaths to the top echelons of society to lord over us until they escape to Mars or whatever the end game plan is. 

Sorry if that sounds unintelligible.  I typed it on my phone sort of stream of consciousness style and I'm not gonna go back through and edit.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26928831 - 09/10/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism is pretty great. Communism will be better.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26928851 - 09/10/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Great post, I agree with much of it but want to point out that agriculture is not an uneducated/low skill field anymore, if it ever was.  Indeed, the world is sorely in need of an agricultural paradigm shift which won't be brought about without educated minds putting serious thought into the issue




Agriculture is pretty low skill. Agricultural science and agricultural engineering are high skill. Of course, Someone that works in agricultural science or agricultural engineering spends their days wearing a fancy button up under a lab coat in a nice air-conditioned building in the city. Not exactly what you would imagine as "farm life".

Last time I was job hunting, I actually applied for an AgSci position in Canada, developing a hardier form of rapeseed. They didn't take me, because I don't have much of a background in BioChem or genetics. I did get to tour their facilities though, t'was a very nice lab.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26928912 - 09/10/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.

Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.




Ignoring the clear flaws in a “might makes right” argument, you realize capitalism has only been around a few hundred years, right? If the dominant system was always dominant we’d still be hunter gatherers and killing rival groups for their women and food.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26929032 - 09/10/20 09:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Eh, we still kill rival groups for their women and food.

We just added oil to the list.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #26929070 - 09/10/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Capitalism is inherently predatory and antithetical to meritocracy despite much propaganda to the contrary.  The system bakes in cumulative advantage via inherited capital.




Completely agree. Capitalism doesn't reward business owners who produce the highest quality goods, it rewards business owners who undercut smaller businesses by offering a greater volume of (often lower quality) goods at a lesser price. One of the biggest threats to a small coffee shop owner's business is a Starbucks opening down the street, and that has nothing to do with the quality of coffee that Starbucks produces. Capitalists claim that the end-goal of capitalism is the production of the highest quality goods for everyone, but the real end-goal of capitalism is achieving a monopoly, which is the exact opposite of competition. You can't have a meritocracy if you're the only one competing.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
It is hard for people in general to imagine a society not centered around exploitation and rent-seeking behavior because almost everyone alive has been born and raised in nothing but.  This, combined with the myth of capitalism's advantage in innovation makes it seem as though anything better is pie in the sky, magical thinking.  People think this even though they can see with their own eyes the number of humans who do charitable work or giving despite meager resources of their own.




Capitalism seems so natural that people often conflate it with human nature, and those who benefit from capitalism the most are highly interested in keeping it that way. When something is just seen as "human nature" or as "just the way the world is", it fades into the background and becomes more difficult to criticize.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Capitalism is fantastic at harnessing the power of human greed but humans aren't only greedy.  People are motivated by other impulses as well and we do ourselves a disservice by elevating greed above all others.  Any replacement for capitalism will have to account for and make use of greed as well but must harness the kinder behavioral traits for which humans are also known.  Alternatively, we can just continue to elevate psychopaths to the top echelons of society to lord over us until they escape to Mars or whatever the end game plan is.




If you google my username, you'll find that I'm a huge fan of King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. Their song "Mars for the Rich" echoes exactly the sentiment you are describing here, and the music fucking slams:


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26929484 - 09/11/20 07:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.

Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.




Ignoring the clear flaws in a “might makes right” argument, you realize capitalism has only been around a few hundred years, right? If the dominant system was always dominant we’d still be hunter gatherers and killing rival groups for their women and food.




So capitalism is not as dangerous as people make it out to be? Other economic systems have a chance at over taking it?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26929486 - 09/11/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Eh, we still kill rival groups for their women and food.

We just added oil to the list.




Wars are always fought for economic purposes. The US are not the only ones that do this(although we seem to have perfected it); humanity itself can be brutal.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26929519 - 09/11/20 08:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't know either.  Enlil once said something like communism can't work because capitalism does too much to prevent it from working.



That's the problem.  Human greed will not allow a large-scale communist society to exist.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26929525 - 09/11/20 08:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
It has always been postulated that in a real world scenario capitalism will triumph by destroying other economies of a differnt makeup.

Is this another reason why we are "stuck with it", based on its dominance? Maybe the best way would be to tweak capitalism itself. Incorporate aspects of Nordic model, UBI,living wage, etc.




Ignoring the clear flaws in a “might makes right” argument, you realize capitalism has only been around a few hundred years, right? If the dominant system was always dominant we’d still be hunter gatherers and killing rival groups for their women and food.




So capitalism is not as dangerous as people make it out to be? Other economic systems have a chance at over taking it?




A gun has a chance of a misfire, does that mean you're okay with someone pointing a gun at you and pulling the trigger?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26929550 - 09/11/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

No.
So capitalism can be overcome by other economic systems? Or will they just dump money in, like you suggested?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26929566 - 09/11/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Economic systems don't overcome one another.  They are put in place by people. 
At one time the people with influence supported feudalism so feudalism was the system.  Had nothing to do with some other system being better or worse for people in general.  Mercantilism didn't overtake feudalism.  It was invented to more effectively serve the folks in charge just like it's replacement, Capitalism


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26930008 - 09/11/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

A differnt word than "overcome"....superior or insert any other word.... what was the USA doing in the 80s to topple the USSR? Economic systems do influence one another. Of course, human are behind most economic systems. The sanactions of the US vs. Venezuela shows this.

It has been stated here numerous times that capitalism prevents other economic systems from thier  potential. My questions still remains if this is true or not.

Edit: Reread your post Bal, are you saying tbe only thing that makes capitalism so dominant is the people supporting it? Isnt it true that no matter the human support behind an economic philosophy , if that economic philosophy is meek or erroneous,  it will fail? The mode of capitalism itself, makes it dominant.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/11/20 02:03 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26930194 - 09/11/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Your own post answers your question.

Nothing happens in a vacuum.

What was the US doing to topple the USSR in the 80s? Arms race. The entire Cold War was an economic dick measuring contest to see who could outspend the other guy. Of course, the playing field was not fair. Hitler advanced to within 40km of Moscow during WWII, which means Hitler's troops destroyed the majority of the USSR's industrial infrastructure. Everything that wasn't packed up on a train and shipped to the Urals was lost to the Nazis.

The US had the distinct pleasure of being completely untouched during WWII. The infrastructure remained. Fewer people died in the war. Outside of a few instances, like then the US ignored the Brits during the Second Happy Time, the US came out on top in every way possible.

Here's another example: Right now, people in the US are worried about the rise of China. It's always about the "rise", though. China pours more concrete every three years than the US poured in the entire 20th century. US bridges are falling apart, China is building new ones. As of 2018, China has surpassed the US in terms of scientific output. They've been ahead in Civil and Mechanical engineering for over a decade, but now they've surpassed us overall. The only real scientific edge the US has right now is biomedical engineering, but with Covid, that seems less like a certainty and more like wishful thinking.

The Chinese Navy right now has more ships than the US. Chinese missiles are spreading across the world.

The US is ahead of China by exactly one metric: Apple is worth more than Huawei and Amazon is worth more than Alibaba. How much of that value is due to the US pumping government money into those companies?

China surpassed the US a long time ago, it's just that we still haven't realized it. The only advantage that the US has over China, right now, is that the US government can extract more cash out of US citizens than China can extract from Chinese citizens. We can outspend them. Same way we outspent the USSR.

That's how capitalism survives. It is willing to self-cannibalize to outspend the competition.

The first few million playstations and iPhones are (semi-)famously sold at a loss. After that, the economy of scale kicks in. Why are they sold at a loss? Because Sony and Apple have the cash reserves to take the hit. If they didn't take the hit, then a competitor with a better product would take their market share.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26930245 - 09/11/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Although not as touched, we were definitely touched in Pearl Harbor. Your other points regarding infrastructure seem correct.

Lets say there is a boat race with the goal of passing the finish line one nautical mile down the water.

BOAT 1 has 100 people cheering/supporting a win, but with one oar.

BOAT 2 has 50 people supporting/cheering a win but with a 460 marine engine.

Who has more people? Who will likely win?
.....and are the Chinese becoming more dominant because of capitalism?


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/11/20 03:36 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26930267 - 09/11/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The Chinese are becoming more dominant for the same reason the US became more dominant, and Britain before that.

The Chinese are working on their infrastructure, and expanding their influence worldwide. They have developed a solid base to work from, because they don't feel the need to set records and show off by being the "greatest".

The US is doing the exact opposite. Our infrastructure is crumbling, our influence is crumbling, and we're focused on milking the population to make sure Apple and Amazon are the most expensive companies in the world for as long as possible.

To use your boat analogy, the US is a boat with 100 cheerleaders, burning oars for warmth. China is busy figuring out how to build an engine.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 2
    #26931091 - 09/12/20 01:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
That sounds pretty fucking awesome.  Get a fresh perspective in there. 

The Elite must be the ones who exploit the working class.  They are the owning class then.  The ones the workers work for.  Isn't this what people mean when they say Capitalism sucks, The capitalist being the man with the coin who enslaves a bunch of workers to do his or her bidding.  The anti christ to a worker co-op.

Is this not the case?



I don't believe that wealthy people have an inherent tendency to exploit and oppress workers, but I will say that our capitalist system doesn't do anything to stop wealthy people from doing so (in fact, it rewards such behavior with more capital, more power, more wealth). There's nothing evil about being wealthy, but people with absurd amounts of wealth working within a system that allows wealth to be used to exploit and oppress is an unfair combination.

Phrased as a question: Wealthy people don't have an inherent drive to exploit and oppress poor people, but if you were a wealthy person living within our current system, why wouldn't you behave that way? The problem isn't wealth: the problem is our system itself, which rewards wealthy people for using their wealth to subjugate others.




I have to disagree with you here (but I'll admit I'm confused by the distinction you're making in those two paragraphs). There is nothin wrong with capitalists making profit off of workers, but after 4 solid decades of increasing inequality, I think it's safe to say that the only capitalists who aren't exploiting workers are the ones who aren't any good at it.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26931492 - 09/12/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

"There is nothing wrong with capitalists making profits off workers"

Wage slavery does not enter into the immoral ?  I don't think it does either.  However like you said due to current situation it is distasteful.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26932028 - 09/12/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
"There is nothing wrong with capitalists making profits off workers"

Wage slavery does not enter into the immoral ?  I don't think it does either.  However like you said due to current situation it is distasteful.




The level of exploitation has become disgusting and immoral. I remember the often quoted facts from the early 80's that at major Japanese corporations, the CEOs made eight times as much as the janitors. That is an acceptable level of capitalist exploitation and inequality. More than that would be acceptable, but not the levels we are at. Economists describe our system as a "tournament model", which is winner take all.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26932077 - 09/12/20 04:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

In a worker co-op perhaps this would be a discussion.  "How much should x make compared to y?".  Everybody would vote.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26932375 - 09/12/20 07:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Here is my view of capitalism...

First and foremost, capitalism works.  It has grown the global economy into a powerhouse.  Most people have a job, most people earn a salary, some succeed, a few makes it big.  Capitalism gives entrepreneurs to give it a shot.  Even if it fails, you can try again.  It also lifted hundreds of million of people out of poverty.

It is a flawed system.  You can put band aids on it whenever you need too but you'll never heal the wound.  Constant governmental supervision is needed to absorb the cost of it.  Which, in theory makes it an even better system because you can compensate for it's shortcomings.

The better you address the negative impacts of capitalism with socialism, the healthier you will grow your country up to a point.  If you try too hard, you will hurt the country because lifting the safety net too high will prevent some of getting very rich which will reduce tax revue, which will make to safety net unaffordable.

Capitalsim and socialism is a balancing act.  A very moody balancing act.




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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26932593 - 09/12/20 09:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Meh, there is no perfect system.  Trust in God and live yoir life the way you want.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: meltdowner]
    #26932595 - 09/12/20 10:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

God is a fictional character.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Enlil]
    #26932874 - 09/13/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism?... slaps the bonnet - it works, suits humans, and drives innovation onwards on the hamster wheel to nowhere :thumbup:
Cons- requires constant government tinkering moving the goal posts/rules, which are usually moved too late, or the wrong way, or not enough, or too much.
Suits criminals, narcissists, psychopaths, dictators and people without conscience best.
Not recommended for utopian society.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Enlil]
    #26932886 - 09/13/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
God is a fictional character.





We're plausibly a fictional universe taking place on the edge of the schwarzschild radius of a 4 dimensional black hole though.

So, all bets are off :smile:

https://www.nature.com/news/did-a-hyper-black-hole-spawn-the-universe-1.13743


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26933273 - 09/13/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Meh, there is no perfect system.  Trust in God and live yoir life the way you want.




There’s no perfect system just trust in the perfect being :cookiemonster:


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #26933388 - 09/13/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
There is nothin wrong with capitalists making profit off of workers




I think that is the problem, though. Workers aren't the ones seeing the benefits of their own labor. If I, as a worker, increase my productivity, I don't see increased profits, my employer does. That's not just.

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I think it's safe to say that the only capitalists who aren't exploiting workers are the ones who aren't any good at it.



Then I think we actually are in agreement here. My whole point is that we can't just point our fingers at rich people and say that they're the problem. The problem isn't just that people are wealthy. The problem is that our system rewards people who exploit poorer people with wealth.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: meltdowner]
    #26933398 - 09/13/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Meh, there is no perfect system.




This is not an argument in favor of capitalism, and it does absolutely nothing to respond to the specific criticisms posed against capitalism.

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Trust in God and live yoir life the way you want.



As an atheist, I find this suggestion completely unhelpful.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26933528 - 09/13/20 02:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I think that is the problem, though. Workers aren't the ones seeing the benefits of their own labor. If I, as a worker, increase my productivity, I don't see increased profits, my employer does. That's not just.





Depends who you work for. I share what I make with my employee/s. In this instance capitalism works just fine.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #26934356 - 09/13/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Depends who you work for. I share what I make with my employee/s. In this instance capitalism works just fine.



I don't think a system that depends on the goodness of people like you to prevent millions of poor people from being exploited is worthy of praise.


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 3
    #26934387 - 09/13/20 11:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The fact that Walmart gets a tax break every time the cashier manages to guilt me into donating to blind paraplegic orphans is a pretty good example of how our current system is broken. Then on top of that there’s a pretty good chance that the ceo of said charity makes more than myself and the next 9 households down the road combined

I just want some goddamn poptarts  :cryforme:


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 1
    #26935245 - 09/14/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Depends who you work for. I share what I make with my employee/s. In this instance capitalism works just fine.



I don't think a system that depends on the goodness of people like you to prevent millions of poor people from being exploited is worthy of praise.




My point is that capitalism works fine, it's greed that's the problem. Fix the greed problem you won't have a problem with capitalism.
Won't matter what system it's replaced with if people are still greedy shits.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #26935269 - 09/14/20 02:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know why a person like Jeff Bezos cant be offered a tax rate of say 40% with the option of paying 35% as long as he puts 4% back in his workers pocket... something like that.
Do the same with any corporation.
The greedy still get their share plus 1% and the workers get more which gives the government back their share.
How's that sound?


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26935281 - 09/14/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
My point is that capitalism works fine, it's greed that's the problem. Fix the greed problem you won't have a problem with capitalism.
Won't matter what system it's replaced with if people are still greedy shits.




I guess my point of view is that fixing "the greed problem" is a lot less tractable than enacting policies that put limitations on greedy people. I don't think it's impossible for us to live in a world without greed, but I think it's a lot more practical to focus on building a better system: one that doesn't reward greed as much as capitalism does.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26935383 - 09/14/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Depends who you work for. I share what I make with my employee/s. In this instance capitalism works just fine.



I don't think a system that depends on the goodness of people like you to prevent millions of poor people from being exploited is worthy of praise.




My point is that capitalism works fine, it's greed that's the problem. Fix the greed problem you won't have a problem with capitalism.
Won't matter what system it's replaced with if people are still greedy shits.




I would say that 'capitalism' that's very heavily regulated can work for both investors and workers. Today, the regulations are put into place by the very wealthy to benefit the very wealthy. How do we reverse the regulations into the opposite direction to save 'capitalism' from complete destruction?  People have to demand change in one fashion or another, otherwise the wealth inequality will get even worse in the years ahead.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #26935420 - 09/14/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I don't know why a person like Jeff Bezos cant be offered a tax rate of say 40% with the option of paying 35% as long as he puts 4% back in his workers pocket... something like that.
Do the same with any corporation.
The greedy still get their share plus 1% and the workers get more which gives the government back their share.
How's that sound?



I like it!

What are the odds of it being implemented though?  My guess would be 0.0001%.  :frown:


--------------------
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26935463 - 09/14/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As is the case with most corporate incentives to do good, the profit made by ignoring the law far outweighs the penalty they end up paying (if they’re even caught).


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26935508 - 09/14/20 04:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Depends who you work for. I share what I make with my employee/s. In this instance capitalism works just fine.



I don't think a system that depends on the goodness of people like you to prevent millions of poor people from being exploited is worthy of praise.




My point is that capitalism works fine, it's greed that's the problem. Fix the greed problem you won't have a problem with capitalism.
Won't matter what system it's replaced with if people are still greedy shits.




I would say that 'capitalism' that's very heavily regulated can work for both investors and workers. Today, the regulations are put into place by the very wealthy to benefit the very wealthy. How do we reverse the regulations into the opposite direction to save 'capitalism' from complete destruction?  People have to demand change in one fashion or another, otherwise the wealth inequality will get even worse in the years ahead.




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
As is the case with most corporate incentives to do good, the profit made by ignoring the law far outweighs the penalty they end up paying (if they’re even caught).




90% top tax rate to discourage taking a high end salary (and encourage reinvestment--i.e., paying people, as employees are the most valuable asset of any company), and fines that are not set but scale to income, like speeding tickets in some European countries. Instead of "oh, you broke a law? 10M, please, from that billion you just made illegally" I'd love to see "oh, you broke a law? Pay us double what you made".


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26935559 - 09/14/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:whathesaid:

Now we just gotta get the rich people who own congress to buy into it.  :grin:


--------------------
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26935972 - 09/14/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

meltdowner said:
Meh, there is no perfect system.




This is not an argument in favor of capitalism, and it does absolutely nothing to respond to the specific criticisms posed against capitalism.

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Trust in God and live yoir life the way you want.



As an atheist, I find this suggestion completely unhelpful.



I was an atheist to for half my life.  You start to not care idlf God is real or not.  Cant prove it either way so it's a silly argument to have.  So you choose to believ in something beautiful because you can.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: meltdowner] * 2
    #26936061 - 09/14/20 10:22 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
I was an atheist to for half my life.  You start to not care idlf God is real or not.  Cant prove it either way so it's a silly argument to have.  So you choose to believ in something beautiful because you can.



The universe is beautiful and I believe in that. It's often terrible, but beautiful.

Look, man, I'm not trying to convince you to change your beliefs about God. All I'm saying is that appealing to God isn't a very good argument in favor of capitalism because it isn't going to convince an atheist.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26938307 - 09/16/20 01:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I don't know why a person like Jeff Bezos cant be offered a tax rate of say 40% with the option of paying 35% as long as he puts 4% back in his workers pocket... something like that.
Do the same with any corporation.
The greedy still get their share plus 1% and the workers get more which gives the government back their share.
How's that sound?



I like it!

What are the odds of it being implemented though?  My guess would be 0.0001%.  :frown:




For sure it hasn't got a hope of happening.
But it wouldn't take much if government got serious. Perhaps if franked dividends also passed on a % to the workers of a corporation as well as tax to the government before investors got their return... job done!

I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 1
    #26938310 - 09/16/20 01:58 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
People have to demand change in one fashion or another, otherwise the wealth inequality will get even worse in the years ahead.




:awesomenod: :super:


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26938316 - 09/16/20 02:07 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.



I don't like that story at all. Julius Caesar was an integral actor in the creation of the Roman Empire, which was one of the most oppressive, violent governments in human history. Millions of people died by the hand of that empire, and I don't think that's worthy of praise.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26938539 - 09/16/20 08:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
As is the case with most corporate incentives to do good, the profit made by ignoring the law far outweighs the penalty they end up paying (if they’re even caught).




Usually outweighed by thousands of times.


--------------------
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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26938681 - 09/16/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.




That's how you create a Junta.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 1
    #26938877 - 09/16/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.



I don't like that story at all. Julius Caesar was an integral actor in the creation of the Roman Empire, which was one of the most oppressive, violent governments in human history. Millions of people died by the hand of that empire, and I don't think that's worthy of praise.



It sounded to me like he was praising the concept of paying out of ones own pocket, not that he necessarily likes Julius Caesar.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26939176 - 09/16/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.



I don't like that story at all. Julius Caesar was an integral actor in the creation of the Roman Empire, which was one of the most oppressive, violent governments in human history. Millions of people died by the hand of that empire, and I don't think that's worthy of praise.



It sounded to me like he was praising the concept of paying out of ones own pocket, not that he necessarily likes Julius Caesar.  :shrug:



Paying an army out of one's own pocket is precisely the reason I'm criticizing Caesar, though (among other things). A privately funded military was an integral piece of the puzzle that led to the uprising of the Roman Empire. A privately funded military is not worthy of praise.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26939200 - 09/16/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Erik Prince disagrees.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26939336 - 09/16/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26939342 - 09/16/20 04:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

But I fought for my "country", in another country. Tell me, that I didnt get sold a bag of goods?


--------------------
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26939407 - 09/16/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Paying an army out of one's own pocket is precisely the reason I'm criticizing Caesar, though (among other things).



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.



Both very good points.


--------------------
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #26939757 - 09/16/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.




It's still the ruling class funding their militarism, more or less. Middle class Americans as well. As republicans love to point out, the bottom 50% don;t pay taxes.

At least now, the middle and lower class have *some* say in what the militarism does, to a (small) extent.

The way I see it, the problem is the police themselves. A cop or a soldier is, fundamentally, a class traitor. It's a lower class job, with middle class wages, that mostly supports the power of the upper class. Actually, now that I put it into words, I think police are the absolute best example of class traitors. It's third place assholes buying themselves second place by screwing over other people in second or third place, and maintaining the people in first.

That's not a problem that would be solved by forcing upper classes to pay for their own militarization. Triggermen are cheap: just look at Trump's goon squads. Most of them are doing it for free, paying out of their own pocket for good feelings. However, turning the system into a military junta by having generals pay their soldiers only makes things worse for everyone else. Rome is a great example. Caesar paid his army out of his own pocket, which is why Caesar's army had no problem crossing the Rubicon and marching on Rome when he decided to seize power. They had no allegiance to the senate nor the people of Rome. If Caesar told them to put Rome to the torch instead of just seizing power, they would have killed their own friends, neighbors, and family members.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26939921 - 09/16/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I like the story of Julius Caesar paying his army out of his own pocket. It can be done.



I don't like that story at all. Julius Caesar was an integral actor in the creation of the Roman Empire, which was one of the most oppressive, violent governments in human history. Millions of people died by the hand of that empire, and I don't think that's worthy of praise.



It sounded to me like he was praising the concept of paying out of ones own pocket, not that he necessarily likes Julius Caesar.  :shrug:



Paying an army out of one's own pocket is precisely the reason I'm criticizing Caesar, though (among other things). A privately funded military was an integral piece of the puzzle that led to the uprising of the Roman Empire. A privately funded military is not worthy of praise.



As far as dictators go though he wasn't the worst.
He managed to pay his army, grant citizenship to many, remove 1/4 of societies debt and was popular with the poor.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #26939925 - 09/16/20 11:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26939994 - 09/17/20 01:13 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
As far as dictators go though he wasn't the worst.




Pretty low bar, IMO.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26939996 - 09/17/20 01:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.



I think the problem is the militarism itself, personally. I'm a pacifist, though.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26939998 - 09/17/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Erik Prince disagrees.



:laugh2: For sure.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 2
    #26940250 - 09/17/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Seems to me the ruling class funding their own militarism is preferable to what we have now: the working class funding the ruling class’s militarism.



I think the problem is the militarism itself, personally. I'm a pacifist, though.




Of course, but having us not only fight for their wars but also fund it just adds insult to injury.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26942790 - 09/18/20 04:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Changing the way corporations avoid paying tax may help too.

The Australian arms of Ford, Mitsubishi, GM, Toyota, Santos, Shell, Chevron, Exon Mobil, Virgin, BlueScope, Vodaphone combined, paid $0.00 tax in 2019.
I paid more tax than RTPDS Aus Pty Ltd. It's a fictitious cooked up under performing? arm of Rio Tinto. Amazingly, they ended up with roughly the same taxable income as Rio Tinto Pty Ltd (11 billion) yet paid $4641 tax.
If an individual ran a business as badly as these greedy shits they'd be wound up. Instead big business tells government what to do.



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26942813 - 09/18/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You've almost certainly paid more taxes than Jeff Bezos, if it makes you feel better.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26942825 - 09/18/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Changing the way corporations avoid paying tax may help too.



How about we don't charge businesses any tax at all?  Instead we raise taxes on the top income earners, and especially raise the capital gains tax (it used to be a lot higher than income tax until billionaires bribed Congressmen to make it lower).

Basically, money isn't taxed until someone in the company gets it personally, be it the boss, the worker, or the owner/shareholders.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/18/20 05:08 PM)


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26942836 - 09/18/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Ha Kryptos, ummmm no.
That's not a bad idea Falcon seeing as the money is funneled to shareholders anyway.


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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Asante]
    #26942863 - 09/18/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Here, Here


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Offlinesweetsara
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26942868 - 09/18/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Here
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Capitalism is a modern re-branding of feudalism. Except instead of ruling by "divine right" passed down through generations, capitalists rule by "good business" passed down through generations.





This is a great point. Can I steal it, put a bow on it, and sell it as my own? You know,  like a good capatalist?


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Offlinesweetsara
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: sweetsara] * 1
    #26942875 - 09/18/20 05:39 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Is it possible to outlaw lobbying? What about propaganda produced by corporations?  These seem like actionable ideas. I see these as 2 MAJOR problems, in an ocean of others, but a good goal for voters.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman]
    #26947826 - 09/21/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Capitalism is an ideal, not an economic system. It's the label given to a human system to justify immoral behavior. When push comes to shove, the "capitalists" want nothing to do with the true components of free markets and they never have.

Capitalism is the excuse to piss on the working class and to justify the incredible economic imbalances that usually result from human greed. I really wish that we practiced "capitalism" because the outcome would be so much better for the vast majority of the population.

It's always been a heavily manipulated form of crony capitalism at work and it only gets worse as the imbalances get even more exaggerated. It's "capitalism" for the peasants and it's "pro-business policies" for The Elite. In other words, no socialism for the working class, but there's plenty for the "capitalists".



Nailed it!:thumbup::heart::thumbup:


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26947869 - 09/21/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Yes, it comes down to choice, there can be persuasive ads and so forth- but eating that nasty burger could be a need to someone else.



Indeed, and eating a $1 burger is often a need for American citizens. This is because they live under an oppressive system in which the wealthy people who run the companies they work for (who do no labor as far as producing the goods they sell) are allowed to pay them such low wages that they can't afford any food other than a $1 burger.

I anticipate that some might respond to this point by claiming that workers ought to just choose a higher paying job, so I'll respond to that before it even comes up: laborers are not in a strong enough position to bargain for better wages. In a capitalist society, money is bargaining power, and poor people have no money, which means they have no power to bargain for better wages. Furthermore, jobs that pay a decent living (which would give poor people more power) are most often locked behind a college degree, which is not a financial possibility for someone who has no money and no credit score (i.e. for a poor person), so poverty is literally a trap. In a capitalist system, the wealthy are extremely interested in keeping poor people powerless, because they need poor laborers to produce the goods that their wealth is derived from.

The fact that some people need to buy a $1 burger to survive is not a point in favor of capitalism: if anything, this fact demonstrates precisely why capitalism is such an unjust economic system.



Yes! Agreed! Nailed it!


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26947872 - 09/21/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Here's a fucking solution. Tax the FUCK out of the people who make more money to make things even and tax the poorer people less. Also free healthcare and college funded by multi billionaire companies.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26947916 - 09/21/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26948015 - 09/21/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:




Woah, that was a lot to take in haha


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Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26948055 - 09/21/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think it was relevant to the thread.:grin::heart:


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