Home | Community | Message Board

Kratom Eye
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineCanadianSausage
Stranger
Registered: 07/20/20
Posts: 10
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26927852 - 09/10/20 08:51 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism takes away genuineness. When you can't trust what a person is saying. It makes the priority money, not helping the person. It causes one to be skeptic by anyone new approaching you. who are you? Why the fuck are you talking to me? Get the shit out of your mouth. When one learns the world this way, it's unhealthy. It shows natural distrust. It's built into the system. That's a a byproduct of capitalism. I don't want to live in the system that requires one to distrust fellow mankind.
Thus, one must be skeptical of everything that has an industry. Because it already has self interest.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26927964 - 09/10/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?



Do I need to give you an example of a more efficient economic system in order to criticize capitalism?


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26927992 - 09/10/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?



Do I need to give you an example of a more efficient economic system in order to criticize capitalism?




Offereing solutions rather than bitching about the problem is a much more productive thing to do.  Otherwise you're just wasting our time


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 21 days
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26928045 - 09/10/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Even if the solution were Communism, we're not going to be changing to that anytime soon, so we're still "wasting our time".


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,495
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26928053 - 09/10/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

And we already know that communism doesn't scale.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 4
    #26928072 - 09/10/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Offereing solutions rather than bitching about the problem is a much more productive thing to do.  Otherwise you're just wasting our time



Calling my criticism "bitching" is an obvious attempt to suppress (or, at least, dismiss) criticism. Criticism is not a waste of time. The first step towards solving a problem is identifying the problem, and I have identified multiple problems with capitalism in this thread, so I am contributing to a productive discussion.

Thus far, I have identified that capitalism is extremely unfair to poor people, that it leads to the exploitation of poor laborers, that it makes it extremely difficult to escape poverty, that it leads to the destruction of our climate for profit, and more. If your best response to these criticisms is "well, you can't come up with anything better," then you are "wasting our time" just as much as I am.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928158 - 09/10/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The US and other nations aren't even practicing 'capitalism' at this point in my opinion. How can I criticize a system which isn't even being implemented?  I can't, but I can point out all of the flaws of the existing crony capitalism at work today. I can also suggest the regulations of the current system to make it better for the bottom 80% of the population.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleYellow Pants
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc: Flag
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 1
    #26928198 - 09/10/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Worker co-ops.  How would worker co-ops not solve 95% of the problems?

Sprinkle in a higher premium on informed consumerism also.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928229 - 09/10/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Offereing solutions rather than bitching about the problem is a much more productive thing to do.  Otherwise you're just wasting our time



Calling my criticism "bitching" is an obvious attempt to suppress (or, at least, dismiss) criticism. Criticism is not a waste of time. The first step towards solving a problem is identifying the problem, and I have identified multiple problems with capitalism in this thread, so I am contributing to a productive discussion.

Thus far, I have identified that capitalism is extremely unfair to poor people, that it leads to the exploitation of poor laborers, that it makes it extremely difficult to escape poverty, that it leads to the destruction of our climate for profit, and more. If your best response to these criticisms is "well, you can't come up with anything better," then you are "wasting our time" just as much as I am.




We have already identified all the problems with capitalism decades ago.  You're just repeating them.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 21 days
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal]
    #26928269 - 09/10/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The problems have gotten far worse over the decades.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: qman] * 2
    #26928277 - 09/10/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The US and other nations aren't even practicing 'capitalism' at this point in my opinion. How can I criticize a system which isn't even being implemented?  I can't, but I can point out all of the flaws of the existing crony capitalism at work today. I can also suggest the regulations of the current system to make it better for the bottom 80% of the population.



I guess that's part of the problem with debating capitalism in the first place: people generally have different definitions of the term (the word "socialism" is even more fucked). Just so I know we're talking about the same thing, what's the difference between "capitalism" and "crony capitalism"?

On your note about regulation, I don't have a lot of hope in that regard. We are well past the point of regulating the current system. The current system is what got us to the position we are in today: civilians of poor nations ravaged by US weaponry, millions without access to affordable healthcare, a one-party democracy that favors the interests of wealthy campaign donors over policy, millions in poverty, students trapped with insurmountable debts for merely wanting to receive a decent education, a rapidly changing climate that will make large portions of Earth uninhabitable by humans, the subjugation of poorer nations by the US for cheap access to foreign goods, the hoarding of the majority of earth's wealth by an extreme minority of people, and more. These injustices are not examples of a global capitalist empire failing to do what it's supposed to do. These injustices are examples of a global capitalist empire behaving exactly as it's supposed to.

Our system is extremely oppressive and is extremely resistant to change, so we can't afford to wait for our current system to fix our problems. Exxon knew the impact their factories would have on the concentration of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere all the way back in the eighties, and so did the US government. Our system knew where we were headed and didn't do anything to stop it, and now we're at a point where New Orleans is almost underwater. Even the US electing a "left-leaning" candidate like Obama didn't address the bombing of civilians in the middle east (if anything, his administration perpetuated the violence started by the Bush administration). Those are just two examples, but I hope they show that it's too late for us to patiently play by the empire's rules. We need things to change now, or a lot of people are going to die unnecessary deaths, and I don't mean that in a hyperbolic sense at all. We can't just wait for another election and hope that we'll get the right senators, or the right president. Our current system does not have a reputation for electing politicians that solve our problems: it has a reputation for electing politicians that exacerbate them. We don't need reform. We need a revolution.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 4 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928287 - 09/10/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
There are noticable flaws; can you tell me a more efficient economic system?



Do I need to give you an example of a more efficient economic system in order to criticize capitalism?




Greetings and welcome to the poli forum! Greatness awaits you.

No you dont, and your criticisms have been noted; like Patial said we are awaiting examples.

We as citizens could fundamentally change the economy without any legislative hurdles, by simply managing wants. Yeah right, whose gonna do that? The  immense wants within America creates that market.


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/10/20 01:37 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26928293 - 09/10/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
We have already identified all the problems with capitalism decades ago.  You're just repeating them.



Capitalism is a continuously evolving economic system. We have more information (and by that, I mean hard data) about the results of capitalism right now than we did decades ago.

The moment we believe we understand everything there is to know about a system is the moment that system becomes status-quo. If I tell you that capitalism is oppressive and your response is "we already knew that it was oppressive, so there's nothing more to discuss here," then you are defending an oppressive system from criticism. Is this really the hill you want to die on?


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26928303 - 09/10/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
And we already know that communism doesn't scale.




I dunno man the Soviets went from an agrarian society to an industrial superpower in a few decades, same with China.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 21 days
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26928317 - 09/10/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know either.  Enlil once said something like communism can't work because capitalism does too much to prevent it from working.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928318 - 09/10/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
We have already identified all the problems with capitalism decades ago.  You're just repeating them.



Capitalism is a continuously evolving economic system. We have more information (and by that, I mean hard data) about the results of capitalism right now than we did decades ago.

The moment we believe we understand everything there is to know about a system is the moment that system becomes status-quo. If I tell you that capitalism is oppressive and your response is "we already knew that it was oppressive, so there's nothing more to discuss here," then you are defending an oppressive system from criticism. Is this really the hill you want to die on?




So you got solutions or not?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26928319 - 09/10/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the greeting. I sincerely appreciate it.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
We as citizens could fundamentally change the economy without any legislative hurdles, by simply managing wants. Yeah right, whose gonna do that? The  immense wants within America creates that market.



"Our wants" (assuming you mean consumer desires) are often completely manufactured by the ruling class. Wealthy company owners (the ruling class) will spend unspeakable amounts of money on psychologically manipulative marketing campaigns that are highly effective at persuading consumers to purchase things they don't need. In other words, "our wants" are really the wants of the ruling class. Your desire to buy a $1 burger from McDonald's is simply the means through which McDonald's executives satisfy their desires of you giving them money, and they have put a significant amount of effort into convincing you that buying a $1 burger from them is a really good idea.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 4 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26928323 - 09/10/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, it comes down to choice, there can be persuasive ads and so forth- but eating that nasty burger could be a need to someone else.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #26928324 - 09/10/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
So you got solutions or not?



In short, the solution I'd propose is revolution. I think the global capitalist empire we live in ought to be dismantled, and I believe that laborers all around the world should own the means of their production, which is an idea completely antithetical to capitalism.

However, I'd also like to point out that, even if I didn't have any solution to propose, this lack of a proposal does not somehow invalidate the criticisms I've put forward. So, in asking me whether I have solutions or not, are you now admitting that you agree with me? Are you now admitting that capitalism is an unjust system?


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Capitalism, where do you stand? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #26928342 - 09/10/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Yes, it comes down to choice, there can be persuasive ads and so forth- but eating that nasty burger could be a need to someone else.



Indeed, and eating a $1 burger is often a need for American citizens. This is because they live under an oppressive system in which the wealthy people who run the companies they work for (who do no labor as far as producing the goods they sell) are allowed to pay them such low wages that they can't afford any food other than a $1 burger.

I anticipate that some might respond to this point by claiming that workers ought to just choose a higher paying job, so I'll respond to that before it even comes up: laborers are not in a strong enough position to bargain for better wages. In a capitalist society, money is bargaining power, and poor people have no money, which means they have no power to bargain for better wages. Furthermore, jobs that pay a decent living (which would give poor people more power) are most often locked behind a college degree, which is not a financial possibility for someone who has no money and no credit score (i.e. for a poor person), so poverty is literally a trap. In a capitalist system, the wealthy are extremely interested in keeping poor people powerless, because they need poor laborers to produce the goods that their wealth is derived from.

The fact that some people need to buy a $1 burger to survive is not a point in favor of capitalism: if anything, this fact demonstrates precisely why capitalism is such an unjust economic system.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Edited by Nonagon Infinity (09/10/20 01:56 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* capitalism
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
BrAiN 16,025 149 02/24/05 11:50 AM
by newuser1492
* Capitalism or Communism? Which is better?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
HagbardCeline 6,437 95 06/27/03 12:28 AM
by downforpot
* Natural Capitalism Silversoul 1,105 11 04/07/05 08:53 AM
by Silversoul
* Is worldwide Capitalism impossible?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Phred 5,674 80 07/15/03 04:18 AM
by hongomon
* Why Does Capitalism Get Such A Bum Rap?
( 1 2 all )
JesusChrist 2,000 29 12/08/21 10:25 PM
by CreonAntigone
* Capitalism=Theft
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
silversoul7 10,486 153 11/10/05 01:04 AM
by Microcosmatrix
* Who Really Feels Capitalism Works?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
MisterKite 4,472 75 12/13/04 03:52 PM
by SoopaX
* Pure Capitalism
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Lallafa 10,764 76 12/25/01 11:30 PM
by Phred

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,907 topic views. 4 members, 1 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 15 queries.