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Offlinecrabs
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Registered: 12/15/19
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Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! * 1
    #26909639 - 08/31/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hey there everyone...

With Fall/Winter approaching, and Bay Area mushroom hunting just around the corner, I've been thinking about the origins of Ps. Allenii, and the possibility of finding the mushroom in a non-urban environment.  I have heard various theories, but from my understanding the natural habitat is unknown, and assumed to me to be extremely rare in the wild.  But it's gotta be out there right?  I had a very brief conversation with Alan Rockefeller last year at a talk he gave, I've read the 2012 paper that he, Werner and Borovicka published, and am fascinated by the fact that there is very little known as to where these mushrooms can be found outside of the usual landscaped, disturbed woodchip areas.

When the conditions arrive, I am going to keep my eyes out when hunting gourmet mushrooms.  The biggest, prettiest flush of allenii that I have seen were under Monterey Cypress, albeit slightly out of its very small native range, and growing out of a mixture of chipped cypress and eucalyptus.  I will probably hunt around in the native cypress groves in Monterey at some point this season, however.  Maybe I'll get lucky...

I am by no means an expert on any of this, but am simply intrigued by the mystery.  I figured I'd start a thread, and if anyone has any insight, or cares to pursue the search as well, please share info and/or findings!


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Invisibledoctorghosty
is the name of me
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Registered: 09/02/10
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: crabs]
    #26910687 - 08/31/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Do it man!


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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Registered: 09/30/19
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: doctorghosty]
    #26915252 - 09/03/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I’ve wondered this often, it’s also unclear where Psilocybe cyanescens exists in the true wild (although I think there have been finds).
That’s cool you found allenii in Cypress duff. I feel like Alan would have found allenii in the wild if they were out there however I’ll be on the lookout too while in the forest hunting edibles this fall!


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"What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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OfflineShroomhunts
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #26915257 - 09/03/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Not from west coast but pretty sure the cyans were native to dune grass.


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You never kno


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: Shroomhunts]
    #26915599 - 09/03/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Take lots of notes/pictures to document it all, it's a good idea.


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Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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Offlineanand408
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: crabs]
    #26966659 - 10/02/20 09:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

First year hunting/new to the hobby. Will be out looking and documenting as well in the San Jose area


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InvisibleNothingsChanged
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Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 10,144
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: anand408]
    #26966766 - 10/02/20 11:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

My view: we all find native cyans(Northwest WA),alennii(NothCAL), But its one of them things? Rather find a cluster or a super patch? For this reason i hunt disturbed areas. Don't get me wrong. mushrooms no matter how many,  are cool.


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OfflineDoug295
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: crabs]
    #26989346 - 10/17/20 12:02 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

crabs said:
Hey there everyone...

With Fall/Winter approaching, and Bay Area mushroom hunting just around the corner, I've been thinking about the origins of Ps. Allenii, and the possibility of finding the mushroom in a non-urban environment.  I have heard various theories, but from my understanding the natural habitat is unknown, and assumed to me to be extremely rare in the wild.  But it's gotta be out there right?  I had a very brief conversation with Alan Rockefeller last year at a talk he gave, I've read the 2012 paper that he, Werner and Borovicka published, and am fascinated by the fact that there is very little known as to where these mushrooms can be found outside of the usual landscaped, disturbed woodchip areas.

When the conditions arrive, I am going to keep my eyes out when hunting gourmet mushrooms.  The biggest, prettiest flush of allenii that I have seen were under Monterey Cypress, albeit slightly out of its very small native range, and growing out of a mixture of chipped cypress and eucalyptus.  I will probably hunt around in the native cypress groves in Monterey at some point this season, however.  Maybe I'll get lucky...

I am by no means an expert on any of this, but am simply intrigued by the mystery.  I figured I'd start a thread, and if anyone has any insight, or cares to pursue the search as well, please share info and/or findings!




I'm pretty sure Ps. allenii is an invasive species introduced from Australia, where it goes by the name Ps. subaeruginosa. While you may find them in the wild here in California, it is extremely rare. Summers are too dry here in Cali for a species like this to thrive in wild habitats. Note the dominant dune grass species here on the North American west coast is also an invasive species from Australia.

I still think its awesome to try and find 'em in the wild though. Gest of luck, looking forward to your findings!

D


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InvisibleNothingsChanged
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: Doug295]
    #26989448 - 10/17/20 01:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

" Additional molecular studies published by Borovička and colleagues in 2015 identified P. azurescens, P. cyanescens, P. weraroa, P. cubensis, and P. serbica as closely related to P. allenii." Nothing mentioned of subs?


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InvisibleRumblestrip


Registered: 04/21/19
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: NothingsChanged] * 1
    #26989596 - 10/17/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomhunts said:
Not from west coast but pretty sure the cyans were native to dune grass.




It's azurescens that's associated with dune grass. They were first found in the sand dunes in Astoria Oregon.
Afaik azures, cyans, and allenii are very closely related to subaeruginosa. Subs are considered the parent species and the others are "scatterlings/progeny ", not sure of the correct term this early in the morning. My understanding is that potted plants or other organic material containing sub. mycelium was imported from Australia to the U.S. (and Europe) a hundred or more years ago. These scatterlings have started to or have become separate species. 
Azures are found in the wild in Oregon but apparently cyans and allenii  are almost exclusively found in association with human activity and not found in truly wild situations.
Most allenii, azures, and cyans have their distinct and fairly monotypic appearance whereas subs have many phenotypes, some of which look very similar to azures, cyans, and allenii.
Cultivated allenii and azurescens fruit are pretty consistent/monotypic. Cyans will have a bit more variety but the subs will often put up a variety of phenos from the same print.


Edited by Rumblestrip (10/17/20 08:09 AM)


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OfflineDoug295
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: Rumblestrip] * 4
    #26992173 - 10/19/20 12:10 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

NothingsChanged said:
" Additional molecular studies published by Borovička and colleagues in 2015 identified P. azurescens, P. cyanescens, P. weraroa, P. cubensis, and P. serbica as closely related to P. allenii." Nothing mentioned of subs?




Quote:

Rumblestrip said:
Quote:

Shroomhunts said:
Not from west coast but pretty sure the cyans were native to dune grass.




It's azurescens that's associated with dune grass. They were first found in the sand dunes in Astoria Oregon.
Afaik azures, cyans, and allenii are very closely related to subaeruginosa. Subs are considered the parent species and the others are "scatterlings/progeny ", not sure of the correct term this early in the morning. My understanding is that potted plants or other organic material containing sub. mycelium was imported from Australia to the U.S. (and Europe) a hundred or more years ago. These scatterlings have started to or have become separate species. 
Azures are found in the wild in Oregon but apparently cyans and allenii  are almost exclusively found in association with human activity and not found in truly wild situations.
Most allenii, azures, and cyans have their distinct and fairly monotypic appearance whereas subs have many phenotypes, some of which look very similar to azures, cyans, and allenii.
Cultivated allenii and azurescens fruit are pretty consistent/monotypic. Cyans will have a bit more variety but the subs will often put up a variety of phenos from the same print.




Yes, subaeruginosa, allenii, cyanescens, and azurescens are all very closely related. If you look at how the ITS sequences line up, they all cluster very closely around each other, with some examples suggesting some actual overlap. Here are a couple of screen shots showing the data (notes in red):





Regarding the NA PNW dune grass habitats, the dominant species is Ammophila arenaria, which was "introduced to the west coast of North America in l868 to stabilize dunes in the San Francisco area. The introduction came from Australia where it had been earlier introduced from Europe. Because of its ability to thrive under conditions of high wind and sand burial, the grass spread rapidly, both by natural means and through its steadily increasing use in sand stabilization projects" (https://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben183.html )

As Rumblestrip has stated and which I've stated before, regarding the monotypic nature of the NA species contrasted with the wide phenotype variation of Australian subaeruginosa. This is population genetics at work, what we call the Founder Effect, basically a genetic bottleneck resulting in reduced phenotypic variation among an introduced population. Here is a slide showing some examples of phenotype variations of subaeruginosa from Australia:



Such wide phenotype variation is normally considered strong evidence supporting a species being endemic to an area. Cleland's original 1934 description of subaeruginosa is framed within the context of it being indigenous to Australia, he found it in the wild, and subsequent references to his work draw that conclusion from it. You can see some of the phenos resembling our NA species. The following slides show further subaeruginosa phenotype examples, ones that resemble each of the NA species:







Further evidence that P.s. subaeruginosa is endemic to Australia is evidence that Australian Aboriginal groups used and/or had knowledge of psychoactive fungi:

"According to the Arunta of the Central Desert, falling stars contained an evil magic called Arungquilta. Mushrooms and toadstools were believed to be fallen stars endowed with this magic. As such, they were considered taboo and their consumption was forbidden (Spencer & Gillen, 1899, p. 566; 1904, p. 627; 1927, pp. 415–417). Although this taboo was not shared by other Aboriginal groups of the Central Desert (Kalotas, 1996, p. 1), it may have stemmed from bad experiences resulting from the consumption of poisonous or hallucinogenic mushrooms common to the area, such as Amanita phalloide, Paxillus involutus, or Psilocybe subaeruginosa. The association of mushrooms with fallen stars is not unique to the Arunta, but is found across the globe (see Beech, 1986).”(Meteors in Australian Aboriginal Dreamings. Duane W. Hamacher 1 and Ray P. Norris. WGN, the Journal of the IMO 38:3 (2010) 87. Ch
7 Meteors and Evil Magic)


Also, there is Aboriginal rock art suggesting fungi use. Regareding the Bradshaw rock art in the Kimberley region of Australia:

"Uniquely shared images between Bradshaw and Sandawe art, such as the ‘mushroom head’ symbol of psilocybin use, link the two cultures and indicate that they were shamanistic.” (Iconography in Bradshaw† rock art: breaking the circularity. Jack Pettigrew FRS. First published: 24 August 2011. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1444-0938.2011.00648.x )

Another interesting thing to consider is how the rainfall pattern between SE Australia differs from the Bay Area of California. I believe this helps to explain why the NA species have not become more naturalized, at least around the Bay Area of California. This chart shows how SE Australia gets a more evenly distributed rainfall pattern over the average year and doesn't have a seasonal drought over the summer live we do in Cali:



Anyways, sorry for the long post and maybe highjacking this thread, but I just wanted to share, I really think the case is compelling and sometimes those involved with discovering and describing species need to walk stuff back and re-classify, in the spirit of good Taxonomy and intellectual honesty. Maybe we can call it Ps. subaeruginosa ssp. allenii or something? After all it seems reasonable that they have evolved a bit over the past 100-150 years they've been in NA. But enough to be a unique species? I recon not but maybe I'm wrong.

D


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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Registered: 09/30/19
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: Doug295]
    #26992558 - 10/19/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Very interesting posts, thanks Doung295!
It’s cool how DNA sequencing has helped provide space for newer named species like alenii but I like this notion of going even further into history with it.

Has this type of naming happened in other fungus species?

On a side note sounds like you live in the Bay Area have you found any of these species in the SF sand dune grasses?


--------------------
"What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Allenii Project - Let's Find Them in the "Wild"! [Re: Doug295]
    #26992692 - 10/19/20 10:42 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

NothingsChanged said:
" Additional molecular studies published by Borovička and colleagues in 2015 identified P. azurescens, P. cyanescens, P. weraroa, P. cubensis, and P. serbica as closely related to P. allenii." Nothing mentioned of subs?





We sequenced a P. subaeruginosa that came in the mail from someone from Shroomery for that paper too. [url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/HE994449.1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/HE994449


Quote:

Doug295said:

I'm pretty sure Ps. allenii is an invasive species introduced from Australia, where it goes by the name Ps. subaeruginosa.




The sequences of P. subaeruginosa and P. allenii are different by a few nucleotides.  P. allenii did turn up in Australia recently, perhaps it's been there a long time or perhaps it's due to all the spore prints that have been mailed out recently.  Full genome sequencing can answer that question!

I found Psilocybe allenii in Humboldt County in the dune grass, but as you mentioned, that grass is invasive from Europe, leaving the natural habitat a mystery.  If it is from the USA, I'd guess that natural habitat is in Oregon or Washington, as it's close relative P. cyanescens occurs there too.


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