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Offlinethe man
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stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits?
    #26913017 - 09/02/20 12:22 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

this is confusing as most test say exact opposite. although yes grains with mycellium will have higher polysaccarides from teh grains or high beta glucans from oats etc, not specific medical elements from fungus. where does he get this idea mycellium is better then fruits? or just easy way to make faster money? as was known to look for suppliments NOT from mycellium for that reason but his host defence are all myc and grains..

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OfflineShroomboofer
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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: the man]
    #26913040 - 09/02/20 01:05 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Where'd he say that?


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OfflineDigitalRhizae
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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: Shroomboofer] * 1
    #26913663 - 09/02/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It's been discussed somewhat in these two threads. Shortly put recent studies are showing that certain metabolites present in the mycelium but which are absent or lacking in the fruiting body have greater NGF effects. This is largely based on research done with lions mane.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26325783#26325783
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26895501


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Offlinethe man
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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26913732 - 09/02/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

he says it often in interviews since he started selling host defence.  I wonder who funded the studies as convension says fruit bodies are whats up as the majority of studies worldwide are the compounds found in greater concentration in the fruits. a couple studies showing a little something in mycellium is great and fruit and mycellium combined is probably best. how do they seperate whats coming from grain OR if grown on wood especially? if grown on aspen birch etc it has its own antioxidant properties and whats essentially concentrated along with other things in chaga.

also having tested suppliments of cheaper mycellium grade vs true fruitbodies its nothing even in same realm.

Thanks tho rhizae will have a look!

but there is also tonnes of BETA glucans in oats... so measurement in quality for mycelium using beta glucans or polysaccarides isnt super helpful.


Edited by the man (09/02/20 01:00 PM)


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Offlineseagu

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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: the man]
    #26913907 - 09/02/20 02:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know.. but I do remember someone on here on a previous thread not too long ago asked kinda the same thing and someone posted a bunch of technical data.. so a search on this site might turn up something.. I can't remember if I had commented on the thread or just read it.


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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: the man]
    #26914179 - 09/02/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the man said:
just easy way to make faster money?




pretty much that.  Like mentioned this was covered recently and I don't know where the thread is either but check around it's not old.

In short, "mycelium is better than fruits" is a blanket statement that may be true for one specific compound in some cases, but the inverse is true at other times for other compounds. 

A more accurate statement would be "mycelium has different amounts of various medicinal compounds than fruits"

Both are good.  Stamets just spins the data to make it sound better so he can make lots of money instead of using his knowledge to actually help people.


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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: Forrester]
    #26917358 - 09/04/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

From the studies I was reading what I understood was that beta glucans and polysaccharides are high weight molecular compounds and are difficult to cross the blood-brain barrier and be of benefit. The low weight molecular compounds which have been identified as hericones (fruiting bodies) and erinacines (mycelium) (of which there are 11 or more erinacines labeled from A-K, if i recall correctly), are more easily absorbed through ingestion. The erinacines (specifically A) are showing stronger NGF effects. Erinacines are also largely time dependent and can turn into other compounds as the culture ages, from what I understand. These studies are also based on submerged mycelium cultures. How they separate what is coming from the grain (soybean flour in those studies) is by qualifying a novel compound that exists only in the specific mushroom species via high performance liquid chromatography. So even if you are getting other beta glucans or polysaccharides from the substrate, the research was done based on those novel compounds.

Generally the funding for the research can be found at the bottom of the papers, I haven't bothered to take a look, however it might be a good idea.

The ability for mushrooms to absorb the medicinal aspects (or otherwise) from its substrate via biotransformation (if I recall the term properly) I feel is debatable. I've read a study where they grew mushrooms on artemisia species (wormwood if I recall correctly) and it didn't take on the effects of the wormwood. Of course this is only one study I've read on the topic so my knowledge is limited.

Absolutely forrester, sorry for the gross oversimplification of a relatively complex topic. I was typing that during lunch break and didn't have time to go into more detail. I also based that first post on the assumption that Paul Staemets was talking about lions mane mycelium and NGF.

It's interesting to note that different benefits can be obtained from one mushroom via different extracts or usage. For example antibacterial effects on H. pylori from lions mane via water extracts, if I recall correctly.


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Offlinethe man
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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26930091 - 09/11/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

unless its the specific medical compounds what is the point of testing other novel compiunds?

I am saying that host defence says beta glucans and if you extract grain or include the with mycelium. the mycellium does not need to absorb/incorporate the other compounds.

also I guess making assumption that 1 species myc may have some effectiveness does not make that true for all the varied families.

if mycellium has more potent compounds thats great however grinding up spawn may not have same activity per gram..

also knowing thousands of studies on the fruiting body compounds vs maybe a couple in this idea of more potent myc compounds and say it as a blanket statement also raises some eyebrows.

I suppose the other issue is charging TOP dollar for the cheaper production of myc extract or whole grain/myc mix. fruiting body extracts it makes sense they cost more and have the hundreds/thousands of years or use.

inlcuding both fruit and myc could justify the costs.

also do not have a paper however it has been said that chaga for example really takes alot(concentrates) of birch compounds. likely makes its own compounds aswell that may or may not be majority of what makes it so antioxidative.

blood brain barrier of course is important for many medical compounds. however something may be happening just within the gut, wether secondary compounds or sometype of reaction happening. ie keeping lower oxidative stress compounds staying in your gut which could be absorbed/stopped from being absorbed.. just a guess..


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Re: stamets says mycellium stronger meds then fruits? [Re: the man]
    #26930159 - 09/11/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Some very good points.  The Chaga example is a really good one, it's mycelium alone doesn't even compare to the fruiting bodies growing on Betula! 

I would be curious to see some side by side tests on other mushrooms cultivated on say HWFP vs. wild collected from their natural host trees.  I always prefer wild when possible but it would be interesting to see the differences when mycelium is allowed to acquire and concentrate/transform compounds from the trees it naturally grows on.


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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