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trubblesome
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: trubblesome]
#26908691 - 08/30/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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unless we're using the same words but different understandings. seems like that happens a lot around here
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3SIXTY5
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: trubblesome]
#26908706 - 08/30/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It seems to be a fairly general consensus amongst people on this forum at least. I've heard this same thing many times from other TC's. I'm sure I can find a few more people talking about it if you want.
In my experience, anything I've ever grown from clone --> agar --> grains without transferring until it's no longer sectoring, there's still definitely many different physical expressions of fruit bodies, which I assume are seperate sets of genetics, just like with a multi spore substrate there's different physical expressions of fruit bodies.
The way I understood it was like this, if you grow out a substrate and it produces mushrooms of varying sizes, shades of color, and time from pins to mature mushrooms then it's definitely not a single set of genetics.
Edited by 3SIXTY5 (08/30/20 08:08 PM)
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trubblesome
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: 3SIXTY5]
#26909110 - 08/31/20 05:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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phenotypic expression isn't a stand in for actual genotype difference and genetic analysis though, especially when we're talking about things like pinning and size and shade of cap, which can all be influenced by various environmental factors, even within the same tub and especially between grows. the only thing referencing scientific articles I can find says that fruiting bodies that are genetic mosaics as RR is describing are rare. see: Are mushrooms genetic individuals or genetic mosaics?
"Within the typical mushroom life cycle, spores and the primary mycelium they give rise to, are haploid in their genetic makeup, meaning that the nucleus present in each cell contains only a single copy of each chromosome (think sperm and eggs here, folks). Depending on their genetic compatibility, when hyphae of the same species encounter one another in the environment, they will fuse and give rise to a new secondary mycelium. The hyphal cells of this secondary mycelium each contain two un-fused, haploid nuclei—one from each strain (again, think eggs and sperm). This condition of two haploid nuclei per cell is termed “dikaryotic.” Mushrooms and other higher fungi are unique in that this dikaryotic phase is believed to persist for an extended portion of the life cycle. In most other organisms, compatible haploid nuclei (usually in the form of gametes) fuse soon after they encounter each other.
When environmental conditions are suitable, the secondary mycelium will form primordia that soon develop into mushrooms.
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The question remains, however, how widespread is genetic mosaicism within the fungi? So far the presence of an extra-basidial diploidization-haploidization event has only been documented in two species of Armillaria."
if there is a new understanding of how fruit bodies form I'd love to see the study.
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A.k.a
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: trubblesome]
#26909161 - 08/31/20 06:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is the same clone but one is from the tissue plate and one was t3 or t4. Huge difference from a few transfers narrowing genetics.
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LAGM2020     
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3SIXTY5
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: trubblesome]
#26909196 - 08/31/20 07:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not going to argue the scientific reasoning behind why this happens, because I'm not qualified to argue for or against the research done by actual mycologists, like you said earlier maybe we're using the same terminology in different ways.
It could be that they're identical when we're talking about the actual genetic composition of each fruit body that comes from a clone, although I highly doubt that because I've had albinos and regular colored mushrooms grown from the same substrate made from cloned tissue T4 dish.
All I know is that when you take a clone, clean the culture and grow it out, it acts more like a MS substrate than a "true isolate" produced by MS --> AGAR with multiple transfers, without hitting grains until only one single set of genetics are showing in the dish.
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3SIXTY5
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: A.k.a]
#26909199 - 08/31/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: This is the same clone but one is from the tissue plate and one was t3 or t4. Huge difference from a few transfers narrowing genetics.
Is the pic on the left after transfers and the pic on the right before?
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A.k.a
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: 3SIXTY5]
#26909219 - 08/31/20 07:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The one on the right was the early plate. The thick stem fruit at the bottom left is almost identical to the one I took the tissue from. A few transfers later and it’s changed to packed with fairly uniform mushrooms instead of the ms look it had before.
Also they were grown at the same time side by side.
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LAGM2020     
Edited by A.k.a (08/31/20 07:28 AM)
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trubblesome
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: A.k.a]
#26909241 - 08/31/20 07:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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right, without actual genetic analysis there's no way to tell by phenotypic expression alone - pic on the right has fewer mushrooms using the substrate for one
maybe I'm mistaken though and hyphal knots are less one on one missionary fucking than they are family orgies.
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3SIXTY5
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Re: Clone --> Isolate, senescence? [Re: trubblesome]
#26909317 - 08/31/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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UPDATE
It definitely wasn't senescence after all lol, 3 of the 10 substrates I made are already 100% colonized, it's only been 6 days since spawning. 7 out of 10 were completely wrecked by a bacterial contamination, and I'm not sure why, at first I thought it was lack of GE, but I don't think it could be because 3 are completely finished.
Maybe I spawned them with the substrate being too warm still and that plus a lack of GE created an ideal environment for bacteria, idk, all I know is that 7 out of 10 didn't grow at all and 3 out of 10 are completely colonized in 6 days lol.
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