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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment
#26907094 - 08/30/20 04:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Obviously Johns Hopkins is a huge proponent of psilocybin and its effect on us. They have quite a few studies going and they all seem to have pretty good results.
But my question for you fine people is this: what do the patients do before and after their dose in order to feel the full effects?
I know that the smoking cessation studies have certain parameters that have to be met. I think the patient has to stop smoking entirely for like 2 weeks prior, keep a journal, etc.
But how do they do this with depression? Anyone thats ever done a high dose of psilocybin knows that whatever the fuck has been irking you for the last few days is going to come up. But how can i make this trip actually beneficial?
I really need to figure out how to love myself or I fear that I might not make it through this winter. A few years ago I left everything I had to sail on some dreams that never panned out. Now I'm stuck and alone in a frozen wasteland and every winter I've come close to pulling the trigger, and i really don't want to do that. Every time I've tripped aside from 2 times I was really trying to better myself but because of poor planning I have only ever had 30 seconds of genuine resolve and love for myself. 30 seconds just isn't enough though.
Are there mantras or something I can write down and get sick in my head to help translate that to a beautiful experience or something? Has anyone ever gone into a trip with the 1000% intention of living yourself at the end of it? Did it work? What can i do to help me? Do I need to start keeping a journal beforehand? Find a different therapist?
Any help anyone is able to provide would be greatly appreciated
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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InnerWisdom


Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,936
Loc: North EU
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E]
#26907125 - 08/30/20 05:51 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't know, but I am not sure if trying to force a certain kind of self-love or receival of love -experience is going to work. If that is what you mean... Shrooms open the door or several of them to your mind and yourself. Sometimes you can find something there to enjoy your life more.
I think the way you speak of what you seek is a kind of a trap or illusion or something. Like what do you actually want more in your life? Do you want to love/like yourself unconditionally or something? Why?
Personally I have found those feelings of love from the world towards me and vice versa, through difficult and stressful experiences during the comeup. I wrote a thread about this in June I think that taken on a high enough dose mushrooms after the come up seem to bring through an empathic and momentarily euphoric experience.
Edited by InnerWisdom (08/30/20 05:52 AM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E]
#26907161 - 08/30/20 06:56 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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In the most general sense, subjects go through a lot of preparation and basic therapy before dosing. So, there meeting with the guides on numerous occasions to talk about what to expect, what they may feel etc.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: badchad]
#26907196 - 08/30/20 07:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Alright, thanks guys
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E] 1
#26907740 - 08/30/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sometimes psychedelics just aren't the answer man. For the deepest of lows it comes back to creating validity in your life. The two keys are validation and health.
Validation is a purpose. An every day meaning, the thing you do that is important. You might be working a burger bar for minimum wage but if you come home and instead of looking at the stupid TV or social media create music, or write, or build toys, or trade stocks, or create anything you have found validity. A purpose, a reason, something you progress with tangibly because you enjoy it and you get better with experience. Personal progress and justification feeds the soul.
Health is self explanatory. Good food and exercise (even just daily and light) significantly change your perspective and general mental wellbeing.
Once you're out of the rut psychedelics can help enhance those tenants that you have built on, but if there's nothing there to enhance they just enhance the glaring holes in your life.
Sure I get how hard it can be to climb out. I've seen low years myself. Seeking the way will help you to find it though. Being open and receptive to new and positive things changes you for the better, while rejecting negative and contentious (so much of that around at the moment) protects you from slipping further into the cycle.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Northerner]
#26908251 - 08/30/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Northerner said: Sometimes psychedelics just aren't the answer man. For the deepest of lows it comes back to creating validity in your life. The two keys are validation and health.
Validation is a purpose. An every day meaning, the thing you do that is important. You might be working a burger bar for minimum wage but if you come home and instead of looking at the stupid TV or social media create music, or write, or build toys, or trade stocks, or create anything you have found validity. A purpose, a reason, something you progress with tangibly because you enjoy it and you get better with experience. Personal progress and justification feeds the soul.
Health is self explanatory. Good food and exercise (even just daily and light) significantly change your perspective and general mental wellbeing.
Once you're out of the rut psychedelics can help enhance those tenants that you have built on, but if there's nothing there to enhance they just enhance the glaring holes in your life.
Sure I get how hard it can be to climb out. I've seen low years myself. Seeking the way will help you to find it though. Being open and receptive to new and positive things changes you for the better, while rejecting negative and contentious (so much of that around at the moment) protects you from slipping further into the cycle.
I hear you man, but it's like I try so hard to have validation, in fact that's all I strive for most days because it's all that I got. I've tried so many things to give me validation and growing has been one of those things that sticks and actually brings me validation. But so many projects and hobbies I've picked up and abandoned.
Like I can't see things through because of doubt, which reinforces the laziness idea which leads to feelings of worthlessness and self loathing.
I wish I could say I don't get exercise but I'm in close to the best shape of my life right now.
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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InfiniteDreams


Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 1,224
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E]
#26908317 - 08/30/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Life is a journey, and some portions are more difficult than others. And those walking the same path (or portions thereof) will have different experiences.
You may be fraught with existential dilemmas that others aren't.
Psychedelics aren't a cure-all as you yourself have mentioned.
There is no magic answer either.
First, take care of yourself physically. You mentioned exercise, but make sure your diet, sleep, water intake, etc is in order. Many people live dehydrated and this has a massive effect on the mind and perception.
If you are in top shape physically then look towards the mind. You mentioned mantras, are you meditating? There are different approaches here, and I won't advocate for one over the other, but whichever one works for you is best.
If your physical and mental health are top notch, then spiritually you are lacking. This means religion for some. For others, it is existential. Define your purpose in life. If you don't feel a particular calling, then reflect on what you feel is important to the world and look for ways to be involved.
You exist. You have energy to provide. Although you have not yet connected, there are those out there who want you and what you offer to be apart of their journey.
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Karuna


Registered: 08/02/17
Posts: 60
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E]
#26908328 - 08/30/20 04:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's possible to replicate parts of the studies – the dosage, use a similar setting, even listen to the same playlist, but one of the most important parts is that the John Hopkins studies involve pre and post therapy sessions. If you're in a fragile state I think it's best to have similar support, while there isn't as many as there should be there are therapists out there who will work with psilocybin.
I'd suggest to start meditating as it can help to open the mind in similar ways without being as forceful. Also as Northener pointed out doing something mindful which you enjoy like playing music, art, sports etc can help to reveal some more beauty in your life. If you abandoned a hobby you can easily pick it up again, I played music on and off (mostly off) for years and once I started playing again regularly found it very therapeutic.
I wonder, when you experienced those few seconds of resolve, how far was that experience from you? As it's said beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Karuna]
#26908513 - 08/30/20 06:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I really have to start meditating everyday. This is going to be such a struggle but fuck I hate feeling like this
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: InfiniteDreams]
#26909109 - 08/31/20 05:42 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
InfiniteDreams said: You exist. You have energy to provide. Although you have not yet connected, there are those out there who want you and what you offer to be apart of their journey.
I wanted to wait until this morning to reply to this because it made me cry for 10 minutes immediately after finishing and all I could muster at the time was whatever I wrote last.
This isn't therapy, so im really trying to avoid unloading my problems onto people but fuck this hit me so hard. I have been so lonely for so long just trying to find a friend that I can get along with that isn't going to try to rob me of my family emotions or morals. I can't seem to find anyone and everyone I do find either doesn't understand me in the slightest or they're shady and ask me to buy them guns or wreck my home by trying to drug and rape me. Like I've just been trying to do what I'm told to do and have friends and its just not working. I know there are people like me out there I just don't know where they are and thats partly why the comment hit me so hard. Its like I know I have to stop trying but its fucking hard.
I'm sorry to go off a bit but fuck man I hurt a lot.
I did write in my journal today, so at least 1 day has a "goal accomplished" tick next to it
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
Edited by Wall.E (08/31/20 05:44 AM)
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Northerner
splelling chceker


Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 14,141
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E]
#26909115 - 08/31/20 05:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Could try joining common interest group/club. Whether it's karate or a book club or a bike club or even bingo. 
There will be people there who are committed to doing stuff they like, which happens to be something you also like. Instant common ground, less sketchy mofos. You'll have to keep showing up for a while before people open up to you, but they will if you are a real club member.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Northerner]
#26909286 - 08/31/20 08:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Good advice that I've already heeded this morning before reading your comment lol. I decided to actually join a zoom call for a meet up group. So we'll see how it goes
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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the strander
Explorer



Registered: 06/16/20
Posts: 138
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E]
#26909437 - 08/31/20 10:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Myc_Hunt said: This isn't therapy, so im really trying to avoid unloading my problems onto people but fuck this hit me so hard. I have been so lonely for so long just trying to find a friend that I can get along with that isn't going to try to rob me of my family emotions or morals. I can't seem to find anyone and everyone I do find either doesn't understand me in the slightest or they're shady and ask me to buy them guns or wreck my home by trying to drug and rape me. Like I've just been trying to do what I'm told to do and have friends and its just not working. I know there are people like me out there I just don't know where they are and thats partly why the comment hit me so hard. Its like I know I have to stop trying but its fucking hard.
I'm sorry to go off a bit but fuck man I hurt a lot.
I did write in my journal today, so at least 1 day has a "goal accomplished" tick next to it
I can relate to a lot of this myself. Some people make tons of friends and seem to find happiness easily; other people struggle with it every day.
I know when you're in it, these periods seem endless and it can feel like things will never get better. But, I can definitely tell you that they do get better. It sounds cliche but you just have to keep going and find small things to appreciate, like hobbies or ways to meet new potential friends as others have said.
I ended up going to psychotherapy when I felt lowest. Looking back it was mostly helpful because I had to explain my thoughts to someone else, a someone else who asked questions to understand if what I said didn't make sense. I realized that some of the thoughts about myself and my life that seemed so important and central (and negative) didn't really make sense. Made it easier to let them go.
You also mention that you have a lot of things you've picked up and abandoned. I find that having a bunch of little things you meant to do but keep putting off, or thought you would enjoy but gave up on early, makes me feel AWFUL. It's like I have this long list of small failures following me around.
Check a few things off that list and I bet you'll feel a little better. Do some chores around the house, pick up that hobby or instrument you set aside and maybe feel guilty about not putting the effort in that you originally intended... check more things off your to do list and forgive yourself for the things you didn't get to.
Once you're on the upswing, I do think psychedelics can help. For me, they have helped me see and experience the beauty in the world again, when I struggled to see it for so long. I'm not cured and I don't think there is a cure for depression that can banish it forever, but my experiences with mushrooms have given me confidence that I can be happy and that I can do it myself.
I started with small .2 and .5 gram trips and went walking around my neighborhood. Stayed small for a few weeks. Last weekend I cleaned my house, queued up the John's Hopkins playlist (it's on Spotify) and took 6 grams. I laid in bed with my noise canceling headphones and waited to see what would come. My only ask that I said internally, my preparation, was to understand more about my self. I had a great experience, and one of the things I realized mid trip was that you may not always get what you want, but you might get what you need.
So basically I don't think a trip at the bottom of your depression is a good idea. Do the little everyday things to get yourself on the upswing though, and try when you're in a better space. Don't ask for a cure, just ask for knowledge and understanding... keep it open and you'll be more likely to get what you need to keep going.
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Rat-a-Tat
Psychedelic Student



Registered: 07/11/17
Posts: 219
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Protocol for Johns Hopkins Depression Treatment [Re: Wall.E]
#26909593 - 08/31/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
This isn't therapy, so I'm really trying to avoid unloading my problems onto people but fuck this hit me so hard.
I'm not sure how old you are, but there is a growing chorus of young men who feel similar to you. In a world of increasingly electronic communication (as we are doing now), social media and less importance put on in-person interaction, it's easy to feel isolated and disconnect. Similarly, there is no longer a daily struggle for survival. For the most part, we all work a job and buy food at the supermarket - which leaves us modern humans with an excruciating amount of time thinking about our problems, since we are not forced to grow, hunt or scavenge our our food. Fulfillment can come in many different forms - passions, experience, relationships, etc. For me - my whole life changed when I met my wife. that was the catalyst for me beginning my journey of healing, self-forgiveness and self-love. I would be dead or in jail without her, but it took me 28 years of pretty painful years until I met her. But... You very very rarely ever "stumble" upon amazing people, new jobs, or an amazing opportunity. You have to put yourself in situations for those opportunities to come to you. Like some of the others have suggested - go get out there. Join groups, take up new sports or hobbies, go out on dates and just get around people. If you hate the place you live - find a way to get out. The phrase, "fight like your life depends on it," kind of applies in this situation since it sounds like you are contemplating suicide. Put together some goals. Have a lofty goal, and then break it down into smaller, more manageable steps. So for example: lofty goal - move from the frozen wasteland. Small goal #1 - save up $1,000 out of the $3,000 I need to move. Small goal #2 - find the city I'd like to live in, maybe close to someone I know.
The last thing that I would recommend are 3 things that I've learned in life, from other people and directly from the plant teachers (Ayahuasca, San Pedro & Mushrooms):
1) You are what you put into your body - Eat good, clean, whole foods. There are so many studies about the brain/gut connection. Putting junk in your system makes you feel junkie.
2) You are what you put in your brain - I'm not religious at fucking all, but for me personally - My thoughts are shaped by the media/books/input that I put in my brain. I do my best not to watch porn, because it doesn't make me feel good. I try not to watch too much violence, because it doesn't make me feel good. Input = Output. And fuck social media. It's fucking trash, and addictive and get off of it now...
3) Get out and exercise - this is the biggest one of the three. If you are depressed... You have to move. Whether it's weights, running or some kind of sport: I automatically am so much happier and able to think clearly when I'm getting enough movement.
I've been addicted to a lot of different things in my life, and I've been successful at kicking all of them. But - I've failed so many times at quitting. I'm forced to start again, but the biggest thing is try a different approach. You being depressed and no having any self-love will require the same tenacity. You need to try a lot of different things and fail at them. See what's working and see what's not and start again with a new approach. I apologize for the novel - I want you to know that even though we don't know each other at all: I'm pulling for you, and I know that things will get better. Don't ever do anything to hurt yourself - go put on your boots and fucking fight, and go make a great life for yourself! Much love - Cole
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