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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo]
    #26903795 - 08/28/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Is it a criminal charge if you violate the curfew, or just a ticket or something? Not sure koods is right that violating the curfew invalidates a self defense claim. Definitely the case if you defend yourself in the course of committing a serious enough crime though.

In an informal sense though, I'd agree that breaking the curfew to attend a riot with a gun at 17 is asking for trouble in that it was a really stupid idea. And trouble certainly was the result. I don't think he was seeking out trouble in the way Rosenbaum seemed to be though. More just a naive kid in over his head.


Edited by psi (08/28/20 10:26 AM)


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OfflineFrank Rizzo
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: psi]
    #26903821 - 08/28/20 09:51 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I agree in the sense that when I carry I avoid even the slightest hint of confrontation and think the kid shouldn't have been there to begin with I wish his parents wouldn't have aloud it.  Hindsight is 20/20 and you have to deal with the reality of the situation you are in and he handled it with more acute situational awareness then typical police.

As for attending the riot, they have the kid clearly stating why he was there and it was the antithesis of riot. Now unless you're saying that whenever people riot you're not aloud to defend property because of a curfew your supposed to sit in your house like a good citizen and let whatever the government can't handle just happen then I guess he was looking for trouble but not very convincing to me.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo]
    #26903836 - 08/28/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Well yeah that's the idea of the curfew, none of them were allowed to be there at that time.

Personally I don't attend any riots for any reason, whether to support the main group behind it, oppose them, observe or play cop or whatever. It's worked out for me so far.


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: psi]
    #26903841 - 08/28/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You know it's a good story when the comment section is more entertaining than the story :popcorn:


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OfflineFrank Rizzo
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: psi]
    #26903845 - 08/28/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I agree definitely not looking forward to a night full of riot, however, I'd imagine if a riot showed up at my property that my right to defend that property and life doesn't evaporate away because of a curfew.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo] * 1
    #26903849 - 08/28/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Frank Rizzo said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Ignoring a curfew and going out with a gun isn’t looking for trouble ?




Open carry is not looking for trouble, being out after curfew isn't looking for trouble though illegal, self defense isn't looking for trouble. Ignoring curfew doesn't mean you can't defend yourself...</font>




He’s not supposed to be there. The reason there’s a curfew is to prevent exactly this kind of stuff from happening. You don’t drive 30 miles to defend yourself. You drive 30 miles looking for trouble, then turn around and say you were defending yourself. You can’t intentionally create a situation where you might have to defend yourself. He knew it was a volatile situation because he brought a gun. If he had not put himself in that station he wouldn’t have had to use his weapon. It’s pretty clear cut which is why he has been charged with the most serious crime on the books, first degree murder. Hopefully this will send a message to other yahoos.

One of the primary requirements to claim self defense is that you are not engaged in a potentially dangerous criminal act at the time. The criminal act is violating the curfew and his awareness of the danger is evident in the fact he brought a gun. Frankly, the rest of his milita could be charged with felony murder and they should.


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NotSheekle said
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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo]
    #26903850 - 08/28/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Just set the clock on your phone/watch a few hours behind that way you can feign ignorance :awehigh:


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo]
    #26903852 - 08/28/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Frank Rizzo said:
I agree definitely not looking forward to a night full of riot, however, I'd imagine if a riot showed up at my property that my right to defend that property and life doesn't evaporate away because of a curfew.




It would not. That is a legitimate defense. This kid was defending a gas station in a state he didn’t even reside in. That is not a legitimate reason to be there.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisiblemycosis
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: koods]
    #26903853 - 08/28/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It is hilarious how now all of a sudden people are obsessed with the criminality of violating curfew.

:laugh2:


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: mycosis]
    #26903864 - 08/28/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I have to wonder if there are any peaceful protests going on in Kenosha. If there are, I haven't seen any coverage of them.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo]
    #26903866 - 08/28/20 10:21 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Frank Rizzo said:
I agree definitely not looking forward to a night full of riot, however, I'd imagine if a riot showed up at my property that my right to defend that property and life doesn't evaporate away because of a curfew.




Different scenario than what occurred though. How exactly was he going to defend this other person's property anyway? Not a situation where he would have any legal excuse to shoot someone to stop them from damaging that property.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: koods]
    #26903868 - 08/28/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I’m sure this case will be front and center when legislatures or courts decide to recind open carry laws. Clearly based on comments from a lot of gun advocates, they don’t understand their rights well enough to be permitted to open carry without getting a permit and taking classes. The NRA should be out there telling people they can’t go looking for trouble with their guns and expect the law to not become less permissive.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: mycosis]
    #26903873 - 08/28/20 10:25 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mycosis said:
It is hilarious how now all of a sudden people are obsessed with the criminality of violating curfew.

:laugh2:




It’s hilarious how all of a sudden it doesn’t matter :elmo:

Theres a huge moral difference between ignoring curfew to protest and ignoring curfew to murder people .


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #26903876 - 08/28/20 10:25 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I have to wonder if there are any peaceful protests going on in Kenosha. If there are, I haven't seen any coverage of them.



Here is an article on a protest described as peaceful.

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/27/906642752/peaceful-protests-in-kenosha-wis-as-demonstrators-remember-shooting-victims


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OfflineFrank Rizzo
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: psi]
    #26903880 - 08/28/20 10:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yes I agree different but similar which is why i'm following this because I still think most of it applies in principle and how this ultimately plays out will give me an idea how valid that would be in scenario that I would see myself involved in.

Koodo's I'm sorry your not making valid counter points so I feel no need to address them as my words still stand on there own to your same points.  Psi appreciate the different but objective views...


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo]
    #26903890 - 08/28/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So he just minding his own business while ignoring the curfew and illegally carrying a gun he wasn’t allowed to own ?


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo] * 1
    #26903893 - 08/28/20 10:37 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

They aren’t objective. The law is very clear.

Giving people a false sense of when someone can defend themselves with lethal force is not helpful. This kid no doubt was influenced by people like you on message boards describing far more expansive rights than actually exist and he’s going to spend the rest of his life in prison for it.


Edited by koods (08/28/20 10:42 AM)


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: Frank Rizzo]
    #26903899 - 08/28/20 10:44 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The excuse he was defending property isnt valid. I cant shoot someone for
breaking into somebody elses property. Thats not how it works.

Curfew is bullshit and is only meant to limit rights. However, there were
multiple other laws broken by kyle that make his claim to self defense invalid as well.

Crossing state lines to participate in a riot (as a rioter or counter protester, doesnt matter),
owning and open carrying an ar15 while underage, etc.

Im from south texas and even in texas you cant just shoot someone on your property.
The invader has to have a clear exit and has to refuse to take that exit before
you have a legal right to shoot them for being on your property.

This is why texas has lots of "trespassers shot on sight" signs. The sign is giving
you fair warning and ample amounts of time to change course and walk away before being shot.


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26903906 - 08/28/20 10:51 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

you have to remember someone simply holding or possessing a gun to alot of people on this forum is threatening and "looking for trouble" I know its crazy but we have to respect thier individual opinion.


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Re: Yall watching the civil war start? [Re: mycosis]
    #26903922 - 08/28/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mycosis said:
It is hilarious how now all of a sudden people are obsessed with the criminality of violating curfew.

:laugh2:



I'm a strategist at heart. When I see a parameter I will always try to figure out a way around/through it lol


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