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OfflineVahn421
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Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? * 2
    #26902259 - 08/27/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'd rather have our own thread for this now that I have compiled all the evidence to make a case on behalf of Kyle. I wasn't sure before, but now I'm pretty convinced.

First, the most important video of the hour. As I said in the larger thread, THE FIRST SHOOTING was going to make all the difference. Well, now we have the footage. I'm going to post the best one cuz it shows two different angles in real time.



So to recap everything we know about what happened:

-Kyle is being chased by a guy who pretty clearly wants to cause bodily harm to him. (Why is he being chased in the first place is a good question.)

-He gets an object thrown at him by this guy chasing him that misses.

-One shot goes off at the 11 second mark. (It is likely someone else shot first and the first shot wasn't Kyle's. Kyle was still running and had his back turned when the first shot came out.)

-This guy chasing Kyle guy shouts, "fuck you!" and charges Kyle after the first shot goes off. Kyle then turns and shoots several times, this time hitting the aggressor, then backs off. (It's possible he heard the first shot and it scared him, as it didn't come from his gun.)

-Kyle runs back to confirm that he indeed shot someone and perhaps where they were shot and he then calls someone to inform them of the fact (not hiding his actions), and runs toward the police.

-He trips along the way and a mob descends on him. He fires his gun once again to protect his life from these people. One of the individuals who descended on him, the one that lost a chunk of his arm, was also holding a gun when he rushed Kyle.

-Kyle gets up and runs directly to the cops with his hands in the air.

I see no murderer here. I see a man in self-defense. All the footage reveals it.

(We can argue he is still a criminal for being underage and crossing the border with a firearm he should not have had, however.)

EDIT: I also admit I have a hard time having sympathy for morons like the first guy that got shot. Why the fuck are you chasing a boy with a gun in the first place? Do you have a death wish? (Probably.)

Best comment from the video: The gunshot at 0:11 does not sound like the AR15, it sounds identical to the handgun shots at 0:17 seconds, which means someone fired a handgun first.


My verdict relating to murder/homicide: Not Guilty.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/27/20 12:25 PM)


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902285 - 08/27/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So you don’t even want to hear the victims side of this before you make a judgment ?
  The cops said he attempted to flee to avoid prosecution .


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26902291 - 08/27/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What victim? I see none. EVERY person that got shot was rushing a boy with a semi automatic. (Idiots.)


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/27/20 12:38 PM)


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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26902294 - 08/27/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don't practice criminal law, but I'm pretty sure if you're actively committing a crime, such as open carrying a weapon while being under 18, in Wisconsin, that changes your ability to claim self defense.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: illuminati]
    #26902299 - 08/27/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Legally, you might be correct with that.


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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902308 - 08/27/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

My understanding is that since he was committing a crime, "stand your ground" no longer applies, meaning he would have had to try to retreat prior to shooting the first person.  It certainly looks like he's trying to get away, but I think a lot of this is going to come down to what was thrown at him and whether anyone could think he reasonably feared for his life. 


Considering he's a 17 year old baby-faced child, he probably was in fear for his life.  But again considering he's a 17 year old baby-faced child, he shouldn't have put himself in a situation where it was likely he would fear for his life.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: illuminati]
    #26902314 - 08/27/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

My understanding is that since he was committing a crime, "stand your ground" no longer applies, meaning he would have had to try to retreat prior to shooting the first person.




That would make sense to me, too... however a shot WAS fired at the 11 second mark that didn't come from his gun. Kyle hears the shot and turns around only to see this guy still rushing him and yelling "fuck you!"

At THAT point, I see no reason to NOT justify him shooting the guy, morally/ethically speaking.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/27/20 12:48 PM)


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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902319 - 08/27/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Know your target and beyond.  If you don't know that guy is the one who shot at you (and it sounds like the first guy shot didn't have a gun - please correct me if I'm wrong), don't shoot.  I'm probably misunderstanding, but it almost sounds like you're saying it'd be OK to shoot anyone if you heard gunshots that you thought were directed at you.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26902324 - 08/27/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
-One shot goes off at the 11 second mark. (It is likely someone else shot first and the first shot wasn't Kyle's. Kyle was still running and had his back turned when the first shot came out.)

- (It's possible he heard the first shot and it scared him, as it didn't come from his gun.)





But before some random comment told you that first shot was from a different gun (which you apparently uncritically believe):


Quote:

Vahn421 said:
-He (likely) fires a warning shot at the guy that keeps chasing him and it misses.







Basically, according to you, if Kyle took the first shot, it was a warning shot - if someone else took the first shot, it was an act of aggression. Clearly you are severely biased towards Kyle being justified in shooting.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: illuminati]
    #26902326 - 08/27/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

illuminati said:
Know your target and beyond.  If you don't know that guy is the one who shot at you (and it sounds like the first guy shot didn't have a gun - please correct me if I'm wrong), don't shoot.  I'm probably misunderstanding, but it almost sounds like you're saying it'd be OK to shoot anyone if you heard gunshots that you thought were directed at you.




You're likely right, I don't think it was the rushing aggressor that had the gun, but he was being aggressive. We can only imagine what would have happened to Kyle if this guy got a hold of him. In those situations, you are justified in firing.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902331 - 08/27/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So the guy just started chasing him for no reason ?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26902333 - 08/27/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
-One shot goes off at the 11 second mark. (It is likely someone else shot first and the first shot wasn't Kyle's. Kyle was still running and had his back turned when the first shot came out.)

- (It's possible he heard the first shot and it scared him, as it didn't come from his gun.)





But before some random comment told you that first shot was from a different gun (which you apparently uncritically believe):


Quote:

Vahn421 said:
-He (likely) fires a warning shot at the guy that keeps chasing him and it misses.







Basically, according to you, if Kyle took the first shot, it was a warning shot - if someone else took the first shot, it was an act of aggression. Clearly you are severely biased towards Kyle being justified in shooting.




No, it was simply because the first shot missed I assumed it was a warning shot. I doubt Kyle would have missed at that range, that's all.

I was giving the protesters side the benefit of the doubt by claiming Kyle was first to shoot. It took one person pointing out to me that the first shot sounded like a different gun, and another person pointing out Kyle's back was still turned for me to realize my self-concluded, "warning shot" theory was wrong. I was trying to make sense of the first shot best I could.


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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902334 - 08/27/20 12:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:

In those situations, you are justified in firing.




Again, this really depends.  If that guy had no weapons, no, Kyle is not justified at all.


Wisconsin Legislature:

Quote:


939.48  Self-defense and defense of others.
939.48(1)(1)  A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.




But since Kyle is a tiny child, he might have a case that someone could cause him great bodily harm.  But again, I'd have to argue, tiny children like Kyle shouldn't have been out there in the first place.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26902335 - 08/27/20 12:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
So the guy just started chasing him for no reason ?




That IS the question. All we know is no shots were fired prior and no one was hurt.. however it is clear who the aggressor is and who the person trying to escape aggression is, and in EVERY case like that, I ALWAYS have sympathy for the one trying to de-escalate initially.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902339 - 08/27/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Clearly you are severely biased towards Kyle being justified in shooting.




I've been arguing with some of my conservative friends for the past two days that Kyle may truly have fucked up, actually,  because they have all been quick to take his side without doing any research. I have no stake in the outcome of this. The new footage changed my mind.


Edited by Vahn421 (08/27/20 12:55 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26902521 - 08/27/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I want to know what happened BEFORE someone started chasing him, that's the key aspect to this situation.

Also, hearing a gun shot at a riot might not justify using lethal force on someone chasing you. Again, what happened before that video. We just don't know enough to make any solid judgment.


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OfflineHerbologist
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: qman]
    #26902531 - 08/27/20 02:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I've seen pics of the dude who had his bicep blown off and in each one he was holding a pistol.


Coincidentally cant seem to find those pictures anywhere now


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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Herbologist]
    #26902534 - 08/27/20 02:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Herbologist said:
I've seen pics of the dude who had his bicep blown off and in each one he was holding a pistol.


Coincidentally cant seem to find those pictures anywhere now




It's pretty graphic, so I imagine that's why it's not up everywhere.  NYT has reported that the guy who got shot in the arm was carrying a gun, so it's not some conspiracy to hide that fact.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26902600 - 08/27/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

My feeling is that everyone involved was stupid to put themselves in that situation, including Rittenhouse, but that Rittenhouse may be able to successfully argue self-defence.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902625 - 08/27/20 04:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

My understanding is that since he was committing a crime, "stand your ground" no longer applies, meaning he would have had to try to retreat prior to shooting the first person.




That would make sense to me, too... however a shot WAS fired at the 11 second mark that didn't come from his gun. Kyle hears the shot and turns around only to see this guy still rushing him and yelling "fuck you!"

At THAT point, I see no reason to NOT justify him shooting the guy, morally/ethically speaking.




Did you even watch the video you posted? The first few seconds shows Kyle literally running from outside of frame TOWARDS the victim at full speed with his gun in both his hands. I don’t even know if the other guy had a gun or someone else had a gun, but they are the ones who had the right to defend themselves against someone making such an aggressive move. If someone was running towards you with a gun, wouldn’t you feel the right to defend yourself including running towards the guy for whatever reason? If some maniac was running towards me with a rifle like that I might decide the best defense is to run towards him because at least I’d have a chance to keep him from aiming.

You’ve spent weeks defending the use of lethal and life altering force against both peaceful protesters and rioters engaged in property crimes. You are now desperately attempting to defend a man who killed two people and did this to another.



You have a completely fucked up sense of values.

As much as I hate religion, I’m absolutely certain you were a much better person when you were still a Mormon.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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Edited by koods (08/27/20 04:02 PM)


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