Home | Community | Message Board


Crestline Sales - MycoPath
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleRunDMT
H?L? GH??
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 16,166
Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg.
    #2690227 - 05/17/04 06:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Arab linguists have said the man posing as the Jordanian Zaraqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.

Zaraqawi was missing one leg and had been outfitted with an artificial leg that did not fit or function properly. He was unable to walk or stand normally with his ill-fitting limb. No man in the group showed evidence of such an infirmity.

Numerous indigenous sources have said Zaraqawi was killed by a US helicopter attack months ago when he was unable to move quickly enough to escape the targeted house. While others managed to exit the house in time to survive, he died in the collapsed building.

As any surgeon will testify, the alleged beheading was a fake. A beheading would result in a tremendous amount of spurting blood. There would have been blood everywhere had an actual beheading taken place. When the executioner holds up Berg's head immediately following what is represented as an actual decapitation of a living person, there is no significant blood flow from the neck or blood splatters showing anywhere on the executioner. Furthermore, the cut was simply too neat to have been done crudely and with such amazing speed by a man wielding a knife. Anybody who has ever carved a turkey knows there is something wrong with the supposed beheading. The suspended head looks more like Berg had been neatly beheaded by a guillotine.

The orange jumpsuit was standard US military issue to men in custody. It is unlikely Berg would have continuing wearing a US custodial uniform if he had been released by the military as they claim. The fact he was still wearing the suit is both anomalous and suggestive. One is forced to speculate as to whether there was an immediate transfer of Berg from the US military to unknown persons, thusly preventing Berg from discarding his US prison garb.

Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards. If they were Feyadeen or mujahadeen, they probably have been living underground since the first days of the occupation. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been shown on news stories as they have marched and demonstrated. One would be hard pressed to point out a single fat man among these thousands.

Some men had what can only be described as pasty-white hands. Once again, one would be hard pressed to find Arab men with pasty-white hands.

The lack of spurting blood suggests Berg was already dead at the time of the alleged decapitation. It is possible Berg's dead body was displayed with his head already partially or totally severed. In any case, he almost certainly was killed before the staged beheading. If so, it suggests the captors had no stomach for an actual beheading of a living person, and they opted to fulfill their assignment quietly and with the least amount of gore.

The scream that is heard has been interpreted as a woman's scream by many viewers. Videotape cognoscenti have further said the scream was amateurishly added to the tape.

The U.S. government translation of one statement made on the film is: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" This is a falsification. The actual statement urged fellow insurgents to get off their hind ends and do something. One assumes the translator being used by the US military is a native speaker of Arabic, so this cannot be explained as an innocent flub. This suggests the US government wanted to inject an alleged al- Qaeda group into the murder of Nick Berg.

Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?

Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a "Gilal." This actually is an Israeli-made weapon that improves on the famous AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents almost universally use AK-47s.

The man in the videotape who is purported to be Zarqawi is wearing a gold ring. This is absolutely proscribed by Islamic law.

The US military has stated that Berg was never in US custody and that he had been in custody of the Iraqi police. The Iraqi police adamantly deny he was ever in their custody. On April 1, an e-mail from Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq, was sent to the family of Nick Berg. It stated that Ms. Payne had located Nick, and he was currently in custody of the US military. We have to conclude that either the email was bogus or the US military has been lying.

The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.

Nick Berg was a telecommunications contractor who went into Iraq to "help". But he and his family were not unknown to US authorities.

On March 7, 2004, an 'enemies' list of anti-war groups and individuals was posted on the Free Republic.

Among those listed was this entry: "Michael S. Berg, Teacher, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, Inc." That's Nick Berg's father, Michael who acts as business manager for his son in their family radio communications firm, Prometheus Methods Tower Service.

Just days after "Michael Berg" and "Prometheus Methods Tower Service" had come up on that Iraq war 'enemies' list, his son Nick Berg returned to Iraq under the business name of Prometheus Methods Tower Service.

Nick was detained, first by Iraqi police, then for 13 days by the United States military in Iraq. He was in US custody and admittedly questioned by the FBI 3 separate times. They would not release him ? nor press charges ? nor let him speak to an attorney.

He was a "terrorist sympathizer" and detained in a US orange jumpsuit (like those in Guantanamo) and put in a cell with Syrians and Iraqis.



Yet they now claim Nick Berg was NEVER in US custody. Oh really?

To back its claims that Berg was in U.S. custody, the family gave The Associated Press copies of e-mails from Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq.

"I have confirmed that your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military in Mosul. He is safe. He was picked up approximately one week ago. We will try to obtain additional information regarding his detention and a contact person you can communicate with directly,'' Payne wrote to Berg's father, Michael, on April 1. Payne repeated that Berg was "being detained by the U.S. military'' in an e-mail the same day to Berg's mother, Suzanne.

Frustrated by their inability to find out about their son's whereabouts, The Berg's filed a lawsuit in federal court in Philadelphia on April 5 asserting that their son was being held by the American military in violation of his civil rights.

"His parents contacted our office, the F.B.I., the State Department," said Representative Jim Gerlach, a Republican from Upper Uwchlan Township in Pennsylvania.

Representative Gerlach met with the Berg family on Tuesday. "They got very insufficient information,'' he said. "They felt that they were not getting full answers."

Nick Berg's father, Michael Berg was publicly furious, "I think a lot of people are fed up with the lack of civil rights this thing has caused," he said. "I don't think this administration is committed to democracy."

The Berg's filed a lawsuit in federal court in Philadelphia on April 5. A day later, Nick Berg was released. He contacted his parents and told them that he was coming home. The following day he checked out of his hotel in Baghdad, and disappeared.

At the height of the US torture scandal, Nick Berg's body was "discovered" on Saturday May 8, having reportedly been decapitated the same day by muslim radicals ? specifically Al Queda.

And, almost miraculously, a video appears worldwide showing "Al Queda" in possession of Mr. Berg (somehow still wearing his orange jumpsuit) at which time he is supposedly beheaded by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi ? whom Americans claim is Al Queda's lead man in Iraq. Not only does Al Queda record the video, but Zarqawi's name and "signature" appear on it.

Convenient? Oh, and how.

Yet there are many problems with this explanation.

Long ago, when trying to tie Al Queda with Iraq, Colin Powell claimed that Zarqawi was fitted with a prosthetic leg in a Baghdad hospital (which, at the time, was touted as being a major indication of a connection between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein).

Yet the killer in the video walks and moves around with both legs just fine. Zarqawi could not be the killer. So why would all the killers wear hoods to hide their identity, and then sign the video with their own name and call themselves Al Queda?

It never happened. As reported both by the London Telegraph and CNN (CNN Transcript) :

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, now one final thought here. You did a very careful translation of your own, of the statement. And in it, you see no reference to al Qaeda. And yet the official U.S. government translation does. Explain how that happened.

NASR: Oh, I find it very interesting, because out of the blue, there is a mention of al Qaeda on the U.S. government translation. It says: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" Any speaker of the Arabic language is going to notice a difference between the word al Qaeda, which means "the base," and al qaed, which means "the one sitting, doing nothing."

My translation says: "Is there any excuse for the one who sits down and does nothing?" Basically they're telling people, you have no excuse for not doing anything, for not acting and defending Islam and so forth. Whereas the U.S. government translation adds al Qaeda to the statement, which is not on the statement.

But it gets much, much worse.

The Berg video is a montage of two separate videos taken from two cameras. This is apparent from the time in the lower right-hand corner, which changes as the angle of the shot changes.



Notice on the right that Berg's head has been cut off at 13:47:49 (1:47) ? yet on the picture on the left, at 2:44 ? nearly an hour later ? he is sitting with his head intact!

In the video shown all over the world, the man in the middle (wearing all black) is the one who beheads Mr. Berg, but immediately when the head is held up, suddenly it changes to the man in the white mask.

Additionally, the audio is 7 seconds off from the video.

So what, you say?

So let's see, an American who is considered an enemy of the US war suddenly is taken prisoner in Iraq, which the US denies, until his family produces e-mails from the US office in Iraq and sues and then he is miraculously released ? though supposedly he wasn't in custody. Can the government ever tell the truth?

Then he disappears ? and resurfaces only as the US is in dire need of an incident to try to put to rest the coverage of their torture in Iraq.

Suddenly, a US enemy-of-the-state ends up in Al Queda's hands ? and not just their hands ? but the leaderships ? who signs a video saying he killed him ? though the guy who supposedly kills him has a prosthetic leg and the guy in the video clearly doesn't.

Then it's released all over the world that Al Queda did not claim to do this and that the US intentionally doctored the transcripts.

Why would a guy in US custody for weeks, after being released for a day and getting ready to go home, not take off the damned orange prison jumpsuit?

Why do the hooded "Al Queda" guys appear so white? Muslims say the accents are not middle eastern at all.


Does this guy look like an Arab?

Go back up and look at the "group of 5" arab Terrorists. Does their look and body language and white

Skin say arab or US military dressed in terrorist garb?

The only plausible alternative is a covert, black operation orchestrated as part of the seedier arm of US foreign policy --which generally only come to light when candid

photographs, for example, reach the public domain.

NBC news (Andrea Mitchell) reported on May 6 that special operations forces, including both Delta Force and Navy SEALs, were also involved in abusing prisoners in Iraq.

In order to cover themselves, the government has released information that Nick Berg was investigated during the 09/11 investigation for having ties to Zacharias Moussaoui. Supposedly, Moussaoui was using Berg's email address. Is it possible Nick is a member of the new formed Jewish Al Qaida?

http://www.rense.com/general52/anom.htm
http://www.rense.com/general52/psyy.htm


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: RunDMT]
    #2690407 - 05/17/04 09:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Uh-oh, now you did it. I would've brought this stuff up last week, but I decided not to because someone would've made a tinfoil hat remark and the thread would've quickly degraded into a flamewar toward "conspiracy theorists".

It was interesting, though, that on the 13th Al-Jazeera was already reporting about discussions on the internet which listed all the strange anomalies of the video.

I think the most glaringly obvious things wrong with the video is the lack of blood (which means that the body was already dead), the dubbed-in woman's scream that is supposed to be Nick's, and the timestamp differences and cuts (if it was done with just one camera).

I have no doubt that Nick Berg is dead and that it is him in the video, but I don't think it was Islamic extremists doing the beheading. I'm guessing it was mercenaries paid to do it for whatever reason.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: RunDMT]
    #2690538 - 05/17/04 11:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

rense.com ain't exactly the best source for information, and some of their claims\allusions in that article are asinine, but berg's death and the video tape supposedly depicting it are suspicious if you ask me.

i would like to know...

where, when, and by whom he was arrested.
where, when, and by whom he was detained.
where, when, and by whom he was released.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRunDMT
H?L? GH??
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 16,166
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: ]
    #2690563 - 05/17/04 11:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
Uh-oh, now you did it. I would've brought this stuff up last week, but I decided not to because someone would've made a tinfoil hat remark and the thread would've quickly degraded into a flamewar toward "conspiracy theorists".





Which is why it was such fun thing to post. :grin:

I'm not sure what to make of it myself, really.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,286
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 23 days, 3 hours
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: RunDMT]
    #2690757 - 05/17/04 12:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I tend to think that if it was American or Israeli special forces doing the killing in the video, they wouldnt have been so sloppy....

I guarantee that if they wanted to, the intelligence forces of either country could make a false video indistinguishable from reality.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRunDMT
H?L? GH??
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 16,166
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #2690763 - 05/17/04 12:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes. That's what I'm thinking too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinebaraka
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 10,707
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 hours, 42 minutes
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: RunDMT]
    #2691106 - 05/17/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah i thought there was not enough blood and since the camera stops and comes back i always figured they just slit his throat. let him die all teh way then chopped his head off cleanly with somthing bigger and be able to do it in one swipe.


--------------------
This is the only time I really feel alive.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: RunDMT]
    #2691107 - 05/17/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

a poor video certainly, but rense.com reaches for some pretty outlandish conclusions IMO.

some of their points:

Arab linguists have said the man posing as the Jordanian Zaraqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.

what "arab linguists"? what "others"? who?

perhaps it is not zaraqawi. i definitely don't think that it is. i'm not aware that anyone is insisting that it's him. that's just what the tape says.

someone may be claiming to be zaraqawi but isn't.

As any surgeon will testify, the alleged beheading was a fake.

he was certainly beheaded, but it may have been done after he was already killed, with the screaming dubbed in and a cut in the video. an autopsy could have determined this, but i don't think one was performed.

someone may have tried to depict themself as cutting off berg's head while he was alive, but really did it after he was dead.

The orange jumpsuit was standard US military issue to men in custody. It is unlikely Berg would have continuing wearing a US custodial uniform if he had been released by the military as they claim. The fact he was still wearing the suit is both anomalous and suggestive. One is forced to speculate as to whether there was an immediate transfer of Berg from the US military to unknown persons, thusly preventing Berg from discarding his US prison garb.

or maybe they dressed him in an orange jumpsuit as worn by detainees at abu gharaib as a symbolic gesture. the killing was supposedly in retaliation for the treatment of detainees there, was it not?

i would suggest that if anyone actually thinks that if shadowy US intelligence operatives were behind orchestrating this whole thing, they wouldn't have been smart enough to get the guy out of his US-issue prison uniform, they need to rethink things a little.

Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards.

actually only 2 of them look a little heavy, and that really doesn't mean anything.


Some men had what can only be described as pasty-white hands.


1. there are arabs with lighter-colored skin.

2. given the quality of the film, the true color of their skin may be misrepresented, or perhaps they may even be wearing gloves.

3. maybe the men are not arabs at all, but fundamentalist muslims from some other part of the world, such as the baltic area, central asia, or even indonesia, where there are many muslims with light colored skin.

more silly speculation.

The scream that is heard has been interpreted as a woman's scream by many viewers. Videotape cognoscenti have further said the scream was amateurishly added to the tape.

which would seem to indicate poorly trained and equipped islamic militants, not a secret US intelligence group.

what "Videotape cognoscenti"?

"Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" This is a falsification. The actual statement urged fellow insurgents to get off their hind ends and do something. One assumes the translator being used by the US military is a native speaker of Arabic, so this cannot be explained as an innocent flub. This suggests the US government wanted to inject an alleged al- Qaeda group into the murder of Nick Berg.

actually it can. if the author of this article would look a little deeper, he would find that the arabic term for "one who sits on his hands" or "one who does nothing" is "al qaed", which is pretty damn close to "al qaeda".

presumably the speaker actually said, "al qaed", not "al qaeda" and the sentence should have been translated as, "Is there any excuse for the one who sits down and does nothing?".

i think it was probably an honest mistake.

Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?

what iraqis?

again... maybe the men were not iraqis. there are islamic fundamentalists all over the world.

Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a "Gilal."

what firearms experts?

that is "galil", not "gilal".

given the poor quality of the film, it might be difficult to tell the difference between a galil and an AK-47 (or one of its many variants). more speculation. the galil has been produced by israel for 30 years and there are plenty of of them in terrorist hands.

galil:


AK-47


The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.

a source for this information, and perhaps a picture comparing the two, might elevate this statement above the category of "suspected bullshit".

On March 7, 2004, an 'enemies' list of anti-war groups and individuals was posted on the Free Republic.

Among those listed was this entry: "Michael S. Berg, Teacher, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, Inc." That's Nick Berg's father, Michael who acts as business manager for his son in their family radio communications firm, Prometheus Methods Tower Service.


ah... so since his dad was listed as being anti-war on an internet bulletin board, he was arrested and beheaded by US forces in iraq? :smirk:

Notice on the right that Berg's head has been cut off at 13:47:49 (1:47) ? yet on the picture on the left, at 2:44 ? nearly an hour later ? he is sitting with his head intact!

13:47:49 is 1:47 in the afternoon. 2:44:49 is 2:44 in the morning, earlier that day. "nearly an hour later" would have been 14:44:49, not 2:44:49. jeeze.

In the video shown all over the world, the man in the middle (wearing all black) is the one who beheads Mr. Berg, but immediately when the head is held up, suddenly it changes to the man in the white mask.

which implicates US involvement how?

the video is poor quality with incredibly poor editting (they probably should have called michael moore). there are some inconsistencies in the film. zaraqawi was almost certainly not there. from what i understand, berg was probably dead already when he is depicted being decapitated in the film. however, to conclude that all of these 'anomalies' are actually evidence, and that the US was actually behind this (what is the author trying to suggest?) is really reaching. though it raises some interesting points, the article makes a couple obvious mistakes, calls on anonymous 'authorities' again and again, attempts to pull evidence out of thin air, and generally reeks of bullshit.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRunDMT
H?L? GH??
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 16,166
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: ]
    #2691268 - 05/17/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And a 5 shroomer for you.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: ]
    #2692253 - 05/17/04 06:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

MM-- excellent rebuttal. Rense.com is very sensationalist, more sensationalist than any mainstream "news" source. I don't trust that site because they have been known to ignore evidence in favor of conspiracy in the past.

However, there are still some things about the Nick Berg video though that don't sit well with me.

Concerning the timestamp differences, here is a post from another forum analysing those:

Quote:


Ok, the video starts and we have a shot of Nick Berg side on. The time starts at 13:26:24 and carries through a few seconds to 13:26:27.

After this it cuts to a complete straight on shot of Nick, seemingly a continuation of the last portion but the time is 2:18:33. That's cut number 1.

This portion carries through until 2:18:43 and then we cut to the main portion of the footage with the terrorists behind Nick. Here the footage time begins at 2:40:32. That's cut number 2.

This is the lengthy part of the footage and it continues until 2:44:42 when he is thrown on the floor and the knife is pulled.

Then we cut to a close up of Nick on the floor and the time begins at 13:45:37. That's cut number 3.

Now this lasts for a few moments as Nick struggles on the floor and the camera man decides to go for an extreme close up which means you can't see anything for a few seconds as the camera shakes like hell. The camera then starts to zoom out but cuts at a strange time at 13:45:52.

It cuts to what looks like the exact same camera and shot but a few moments later at 13:45:59. That's cut number 4.

This shot plays out as they start cutting his throat and lasts until 13:46:33.

It then cuts to what must be a few brief seconds later at 13:47:46 where they lift his head towards the camera. That's cut number 5 and the footage ends after about another thirty seconds.

Do you not see my problem here? In order for it to be done this way it could only have been done really two ways:

First would be that it's one camera. If that is the case then the changes in time are really weird regardless of edits for time or not. To go from 13:00 approx hours to 2:00 hours approx and back again to 13:00 approx would mean that not only were bits filmed many hours apart, they are also out of order.

This doesn't make sense except for the last bit were it's just jumping forward in time by the space of a few seconds, but one has to ask why there are cuts here? It's hardly to save time, not that much passes. It's also conveniently before and after the cutting, but I'm not getting into that. I'm assuming the footage is genuine for now.

Because of these weird jumps in time as well as the sometimes unusual cuts, it was most likely done with 2 cameras.

This would explain the apparent major jumps in time near the beginning because maybe both cameras were set to different times.

However this is what bothers me. If it was as you say one of the terrorists who was an "amateur videographer" filming it for his fellow terrorists, why have they used such a professional set up? They have decided to use a two camera angle set up which means that they've edited it afterwards.

Of course they could do this editing on a computer, they wouldn't need a professional editing system but how would a terrorist thug think of using these techniques? It isn't the usual stop and start on your camera when something interesting isn't going on, they've actually done it afterwards for pacing.

This would have to be people with media experience and know what they're doing. Now, if they're professionals and they know what they're doing by deciding to get multiple angles and use editing techniques, why use such poor quality video camera? It just doesn't make sense to me, you might as well go all out.

One thing is for sure though, the last few shots were definitely the same camera. They've shaved out time between him going to ground, him struggling on the floor as the camera zooms in and out; shaky and unfocused, then between the actual cuttings and finally to them lifting up his head.

What is the need for these cuts? It is definitely the same camera and there is no need to cut for pacing as we're talking a matter of seconds here, there is absolutely no point.





That speaks for itself, I really can't add to what was said there.

Concerning the mistranslation of "al qaed", there was an interview on CNN last week with Octavia Nasr, who is CNN Senior Editor for Arab Affairs, which addressed this. the relevant parts are bolded:

Quote:


Aired on CNN May 12, 2004 - 12:59 ET

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0405/12/lol.02.html

O'BRIEN: Responses throughout the Middle East are reflected, of course, in Arab TV coverage. Our senior editor of Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr, who watches Arab the Arab television assiduously, is here to give us a little sense of what's being said and perhaps more important in this story, what is being shown and not shown. The big question is, of course, on this tape, just horrific tape, which is available on the Web, obviously. Are places like Al-Arabiya, Al Jazeera, are they showing it in its entirety?

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: No. Arab viewers of the big networks, as well as the local TV stations did not see the actual execution. They did see at the beginning of this tape, just like we saw here on CNN and most Western networks, you saw the beginning of the tape right before the beheading. They reported on it, and as a side story. It certainly isn't playing as a big story or as the story.

O'BRIEN: That's very interesting. When we hearken back to Danny Pearl, "The Wall Street Journal" reporter who was killed in Pakistan in 2002, the entirety of that, which included a beheading, was shown on these outlets. What happened? What changed?

NASR: What changed is the learning. And also the reaction to showing gruesome pictures and atrocities and the reaction from viewers and authorities alike. Also, it has been a few years since then. Back then, there was no Al-Arabiya. Al-Arabiya is brand new. It started a few weeks before the war last year.

Again, it's a learning process. It seems that the networks are responding to their viewers. Remember, Al Jazeera is seen all over the world, the Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia, all over the world. And viewers there are not accepting of these images as people in the Arab world are.

O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you this. You've had a chance to really listen to this tape and get a sense who might be responsible, just by deciphering, say, accents. And certainly, there in the Arab world, they're very attuned to that. And given the fact of who this may or may not be, does that have some effect on how it is being played?

NASR: Yes, and if you listen to these voices that we're hearing on Arab networks, Iraqis are condemning this execution. And they're saying these are foreigners. These are not Iraqis. They do not represent us and so forth.

Now, of course, the original claim was that Zarqawi is the actual man who performed this execution. Our experts listened to the accent, as you said, and they determined the accent is not Jordanian...

O'BRIEN: He is a Jordanian who is working supposedly, allegedly, at the behest of al Qaeda in Iraq. So go ahead.

NASR: Right, he is very close to bin Laden, and works, you're right, as an agent of al Qaeda in Iraq. Now, the accent is not Jordanian so that takes the Jordanian element out of the story immediately.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, now one final thought here. You did a very careful translation of your own, of the statement. And in it, you see no reference to al Qaeda. And yet the official U.S. government translation does. Explain how that happened.

NASR: Oh, I find it very interesting, because out of the blue, there is a mention of al Qaeda on the U.S. government translation. It says: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" Any speaker of the Arabic language is going to notice a difference between the word al Qaeda, which means "the base," and al qaed, which means "the one sitting, doing nothing."

My translation says: "Is there any excuse for the one who sits down and does nothing?" Basically they're telling people, you have no excuse for not doing anything, for not acting and defending Islam and so forth. Whereas the U.S. government translation has this factual error, I'm sure it's an honest mistake, but basically it sort of adds al Qaeda to the statement, which is not on the statement.

O'BRIEN: All right, Octavia Nasr, we don't know exactly how that got in there. We'll try to get more on that. We appreciate you bringing that all to light and appreciate your insights, of course.

NASR: You bet.





There are many more suspicious things about the video than what rense.com listed. For instance:

1. If the terrorists, specifically Zarqawi, identified themselves as carrying out the murder, why hide behind a mask?

2. Nick is apparently no longer alive when he is beheaded. This is evident because at that part of the video he does not even wriggle while being cut with the knife. There is also the lack of blood. So if this is the case, why go through the trouble of making it seem he was alive by dubbing in a scream?

3. From the time 13:46:25 to 13:46:28, for about 60 frames of the video, there is a portion of a sixth man seen in the bottom righthand corner. You can see his ear and what appears to be a cap and shaved head.

I'm not jumping to any definite conclusions about this yet, but I would like to put this information out there for anyone interested in further investigating this video.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,881
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 4 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: ]
    #2692710 - 05/17/04 08:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why would Al Quaeda choose a name that is so close to meaning "the one sitting, doing nothing."?

Anyway, this is starting to sound fishy. There?s only one man that I know of that cries "Al Quaeda" whenever something isn?t going his way in order to cause a distraction.........






--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Dennis & The Times - Flight Patterns



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: ]
    #2692834 - 05/17/04 09:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.

a source for this information, and perhaps a picture comparing the two, might elevate this statement above the category of "suspected bullshit".









http://liquidmind.ath.cx/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=2


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: RunDMT]
    #2692908 - 05/17/04 09:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

When you saw the head off of a human properly especially combined with reduced blood pressure due to being drugged up their will be noticeable but not excessive blood flow. By this i mean nothing will squirt but it will obviously drip profusely from the base of the neck.

The incredibly crappy video and bad camera angles make it plausible that he may have been alive.

And about them being fat, have you ever seen the kind of black pajamas they wear. Very loose and sometimes padded. They dont seem fat to me. And the crappy video makes it to hard to tell the color of the skin and what type of weapons they are carrying.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: RunDMT]
    #2693054 - 05/17/04 09:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:






Actually, when I first saw the video that's one thought that did occur to me, that the far right terrorist did look out of place. I also noticed that the sound is off by a few moments... you can hear the terrorists in the background shouting as Nick Berg starts to scream before the actual visual sequence begins. I think even John Gibson on Fox News is talking about the strange nature of the Berg murder.

If it turns out Arab Muslims didn't kill Nick Berg, Abu Ghraib will suddenly seem like a lesser outrage to the Middle East. I honestly haven't seen a surge in anti-Arab/Muslim racism like this (in response to Berg) since 9/11 - so equally the situation in general is starting to reflect a creepy cycle now.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 10,378
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: Learyfan]
    #2693086 - 05/17/04 10:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Of course they could do this editing on a computer, they wouldn't need a professional editing system but how would a terrorist thug think of using these techniques? It isn't the usual stop and start on your camera when something interesting isn't going on, they've actually done it afterwards for pacing.

This would have to be people with media experience and know what they're doing. Now, if they're professionals and they know what they're doing by deciding to get multiple angles and use editing techniques, why use such poor quality video camera? It just doesn't make sense to me, you might as well go all out.




I feel qualified to answer this, having some experience with uber-amatuer video myself..

All you need is 1 TV and two VCRs, and a good sense of timing. I made a half-hour video once back in high school, sketch comedy stuff. Not great I'll admit, but we had.. now follow me here.. approximately 80 cuts in that half hour.. all of them done near-flawlessly. No extra footage before a cut, no ends or beginning of words cut off. Just involves stopping and starting the VCRs recording at just the right time.. and considering most VCRs have about a 1 to 2 second over-run and rewind ( that is.. you hit stop, and they'll backtrack a bit, or when you rewind and stop, it'll rewind a bit more, things like that..).. it was tough. But honestly? Not that tough. Three 16 year olds from the suburbs figured it out with no help.

Secondly I don't think the US DID THIS! Why? Those prisoners were still better treated than US citizens in those conditions.

Remember: NYC. Bout 2 years ago. Black guy, plunger, it went up his ass. Apparently a few times. I don't know about you but I'll take a fucking glowstick up the rear any day of the week before I'd take rough, unfinished wood. And no one in NYC sawed off anyone's head. I don't think it crossed their minds.

Besides it is in the best interest of the US Gov't for incidents like this not to happen. It would not have been officially sanctioned. Look, all this is going to do is cause more problems for the current administration. The best course of action would be an incident-free resolution and handing back of Iraq to its citizens, and by best course I mean the course that would most benefit Bush et al. Because they would have done things well and right, and a good finished product would breed confidence in him and win the election.

But if things go to shit?

If anyone in the US WAS behind this..
don't look to GW.. look at Kerry. He's the top dog right now that would benefit most from atrocities in Iraq -- hey, it could very well win him the Presidency.


MULL OVER THAT ONE MARTHA


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: adrug]
    #2693109 - 05/17/04 10:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

adrug said:
Quote:

mushmaster said:
The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.

a source for this information, and perhaps a picture comparing the two, might elevate this statement above the category of "suspected bullshit".









http://liquidmind.ath.cx/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=2



I've used chairs like that at all sorts of events. It doesn't look like anything the US military would have exclusive access to.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2693283 - 05/17/04 10:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

adrug said:
Quote:

mushmaster said:
The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.

a source for this information, and perhaps a picture comparing the two, might elevate this statement above the category of "suspected bullshit".









http://liquidmind.ath.cx/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=2



I've used chairs like that at all sorts of events. It doesn't look like anything the US military would have exclusive access to.




Now that you pointed it out ss7, i am in fact sitting on that exact style of chair because my desk chair broke and i am to poor to buy a new one. Heck maybe a company made more than one chair just to try and turn a profit, go figure.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSteinM
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 35,129
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2693284 - 05/17/04 10:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree, is there a link that shows a "standard issue military chair"?

That statement is hilarious "a standard issue military chair". Was berg wearing a "Standard issue military beard" as well. lol, and out come the conspiracy theories.

Oh and also, Bergs "standard issue military jumpsuit" looks a little silky shiney to me rather than dull hunter orange.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2693505 - 05/17/04 11:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not saying they are "standard issue chairs", I'm simply posting these examples for comparison as requested by mushmaster. For all I know these chairs could be a dime a dozen in Iraq. I have never been there, so I cannot say. Also, Stein makes a good point about the "shiny" orange jumpsuit.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Anomalies surrounding death of Nick Berg. [Re: adrug]
    #2694746 - 05/18/04 04:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

it looks like a normal standard cheap backyard chair to me
also about the ridiculous assumption that iraqis arent fat?
that is a prizewinner for sure
they have giants and midgets ,fat and skinny,fairskinned ,darkskinned people just like we do
clutching at straws maybe? :rolleyes:


Edited by Anonymous (05/18/04 04:13 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Are you against the beheading of Nick Berg?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Evolving 5,577 144 05/14/04 12:19 PM
by Xlea321
* Berg's father blames Bush and Rumsfeld Johan Shultz 675 11 05/14/04 05:17 PM
by phi1618
* don't feel so bad for berg just yet!!! KingOftheThing 765 16 05/16/04 08:36 PM
by Anonymous
* Forensic Questions Postulated about Berg Execution germin8tionn8ion 281 4 06/22/04 04:47 AM
by Anonymous
* More about Bush supports boiling people to death carbonhoots 497 8 12/15/03 01:11 PM
by Learyfan
* New inquiry into Pat Tillman's death. afoaf 1,438 16 10/03/05 12:04 PM
by YidakiMan
* Death Penalty Case from the Opposite End of the Spectrum DeepDish 902 13 12/16/05 09:55 PM
by lysergicide
* poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Annapurna1
4,036 77 03/24/06 04:38 AM
by Alex213

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
2,499 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Marijuana Demystified
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.211 seconds spending 0.016 seconds on 17 queries.