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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: koods] * 2
    #26903357 - 08/28/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Court documents (pdf link)

Count 1: FIRST DEGREE RECKLESS HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
Count 2: FIRST DEGREE RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING SAFETY, USE OF A DANGEROUS
WEAPON
Count 3: FIRST DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
Count 4: ATTEMPT FIRST DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS
WEAPON
Count 5: FIRST DEGREE RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING SAFETY, USE OF A DANGEROUS
WEAPON
Count 6: POSSESSION OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON BY A PERSON UNDER 18


Quote:

First shooting

On August 25, 2020 an 8:00 pm curfew had been imposed east of I-94 in Kenosha County due to civil unrest. On August 25th at approximately 11:45 pm a shooting occurred at Car Source which is located at the northwest corner of 63rd St. and Sheridan Road in the City and County of Kenosha, State of Wisconsin. The man who was shot at this location was identified as Joseph Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum was transported to a local hospital where a doctor declared him to be deceased on August 26, 2020 at 12:47 am.

In the course of investigating this incident, law enforcement reviewed and shared with your complainant multiple videos that appeared to be recorded on cell phones. In the first video, a male who was later identified to be Kyle H. Rittenhouse, DOB: 01/03/03 (hereinafter “the defendant”), is running southwest across the eastern portion of the Car Source parking lot. The defendant is a resident of Antioch, IL. The defendant can clearly be seen holding a long gun, which was later recovered by law enforcement and identified as a Smith & Wesson AR-15 style .223 rifle. The recovered magazine for this rifle holds 30 rounds of ammunition. Following the defendant is Rosenbaum and trailing behind the defendant and Rosenbaum is a male who was later identified as Richard McGinnis, a reporter.

The video shows that as they cross the parking lot, Rosenbaum appears to throw an object at the defendant. The object does not hit the defendant and a second video shows, based on where the object landed, that it was a plastic bag. Rosenbaum appears to be unarmed for the duration of this video. A review of the second video shows that the defendant and Rosenbaum continue to move across the parking lot and approach the front of a black car parked in the lot. A loud bang is heard on the video, then a male shouts, “Fuck you!”, then Rosenbaum appears to continue to approach the defendant and gets in near proximity to the defendant when 4 more loud bangs are heard. Rosenbaum then falls to the ground.

The defendant then circles behind the black car and approaches Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum remains on the ground. McGinnis also approaches, removes his shirt, and attempts to render aid to Rosenbaum. The defendant appears to get on his cell phone and place a call. Another male approaches, and the defendant turns and begins to run away from the scene. As the defendant is running away, he can be heard saying on the phone, “I just killed somebody.”

Detective Cepress interviewed McGinnis and indicates the following: Before the shooting, McGinnis was interviewing the defendant. The defendant told McGinnis that he was a trained medic. McGinnis stated that he (McGinnis) has handled many ARs and that the defendant was not handling the weapon very well. McGinnis said that as they were walking south another armed male who appeared to be in his 30s joined them and said he was there to protect the defendant. McGinnis stated that before the defendant reached the parking lot and ran across it, the defendant had moved from the middle of Sheridan Road to the sidewalk and that is when McGinnis saw a male (Rosenbaum) initially try to engage the defendant. McGinnis stated that as the defendant was walking Rosenbaum was trying to get closer to the defendant. When Rosenbaum advanced, the defendant did a “juke” move and started running. McGinnis stated that there were other people that were moving very quickly. McGinnis stated that they were moving towards the defendant. McGinnis said that according to what he saw the defendant was trying to evade these individuals.

McGinnis described the point where the defendant had reached the car. McGinnis described that the defendant had the gun in a low ready position. Meaning that he had the gun raised but pointed downward. The butt of the gun would have been at an angle downwards from the shoulder. McGinnis stated that the defendant brought the gun up. McGinnis stated that he stepped back and he thinks the defendant fired 3 rounds in rapid succession. McGinnis said when the first round went off, he thought it hit the pavement. McGinnis felt something on his leg and his first thought was wondering whether he had gotten shot. McGinnis was behind and slightly to the right of Rosenbaum, in the line of fire, when the defendant shot.

McGinnis stated that the first round went into the ground and when the second shot went off, the defendant actually had the gun aimed at Rosenbaum. McGinnis stated he did not hear the two exchange any words. McGinnis said that the unarmed guy (Rosenbaum) was trying to get the defendant’s gun. McGinnis demonstrated by extending both of his hands in a quick grabbing motion and did that as a visual on how Rosenbaum tried to reach for the defendant’s gun. Detective Cepress indicates that he asked McGinnis if Rosenbaum had his hands on the gun when the defendant shot. McGinnis said that he definitely made a motion that he was trying to grab the barrel of the gun. McGinnis stated that the defendant pulled it away and then raised it. McGinnis stated that right as they came together, the defendant fired. McGinnis said that when Rosenbaum was shot, he had leaned in (towards the defendant).

McGinnis stated that after the defendant shot he ran back towards the hospital towards the middle of the road. McGinnis stayed and turned his attention to Rosenbaum. McGinnis stated that he then heard other shots really soon after.




Quote:

Second shooting

The third video that your complainant reviewed shows the defendant running northbound on Sheridan Road after he had shot Rosenbaum. The street and the sidewalk are full of people. A group of several people begin running northbound on Sheridan Road behind the defendant. A person can be heard yelling what sounds like, “Beat him up!” Another person can be heard yelling what sounds like, “Hey, he shot him!” Your complainant reviewed a fourth video that showed a different angle of the defendant running northbound. In this video a person can be heard yelling, “Get him! Get that dude!” Then a male in a light-colored top runs towards the defendant and appears to swing at the defendant with his right arm. This swing makes contact with the defendant, knocking his hat off. The defendant continues to run northbound. On the video a male can be heard saying something to the effect of, “What’d he do?” Another male can be heard responding something to the effect of, “Just shot someone.” Then a male can be heard yelling, “Get his ass!” The defendant then trips and falls to the ground.

As the defendant is on the ground, an unidentified male wearing a dark-colored top and light-colored pants jumps at and over the defendant. Based on the sounds of gunshots on the video and the positioning of the defendant’s gun, it appears that he fires two shots in quick succession at this person. It appears that that person was not hit as he then runs away from the defendant. A second person who was later identified as Anthony Huber approaches the defendant who is still on the ground, on his back. Huber has a skateboard in his right hand. When Huber reaches the defendant it appears that he is reaching for the defendant’s gun with his left hand as the skateboard makes contact with the defendant’s left shoulder. Huber appears to be trying to pull the gun away from the defendant. The defendant rolls towards his left side and as Huber appears to be trying to grab the gun the gun is pointed at Huber’s body. The defendant then fires one
round which can be heard on the video. Huber staggers away, taking several steps, then collapses to the ground. Huber subsequently died from this gunshot wound.

After shooting Huber, the defendant moves to a seated position and points his gun at a third male, later identified as Gaige Grosskreutz, who had begun to approach the defendant. When the defendant shot Huber, Grosskreutz freezes and ducks and takes a step back. Grosskreutz putshis hands in the air. Grosskreutz then moves towards the defendant who aims his gun at Grosskreutz and shoots him, firing 1 shot. Grosskreutz was shot in the right arm. Grosskreutz appears to be holding a handgun in his right hand when he was shot. Grosskreutz then runs southbound away from the defendant screaming for a medic and the defendant gets up and starts walking northbound. The defendant turns around facing southbound while walking backwards northbound with his firearm in a ready position, pointed towards the people in the roadway.




Quote:

Autopsies

Dr. Kelley of the Milwaukee Medical Examiner’s Office conducted an autopsy on Joseph Rosenbaum. Dr. Kelley indicated that Rosenbaum had a gunshot wound to the right groin which fractured his pelvis, a gunshot wound to the back which perforated his right lung and liver, a gunshot wound to the left hand, a superficial gunshot wound to his lateral left thigh, and a graze gunshot wound to the right side of his forehead.

Dr. Kelley also conducted an autopsy on Anthony Huber. Dr. Kelley indicated that Huber had a gunshot wound to his chest that perforated his heart, aorta, pulmonary artery, and right lung.




Quote:

Who he called

Detective Antaramian spoke with Dominic Black on August 26, 2020. Dominic stated that he received a phone call from his friend Kyle Rittenhouse, the defendant, at 11:46 pm in which the defendant stated that he shot someone. Detective Antaramian saw the defendant in person at the Antioch, IL Police Department and identified the defendant as the shooter in the various videos.




--------------------


Edited by shivas.wisdom (08/28/20 12:30 AM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26903368 - 08/28/20 12:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

So the only shooter was Rittenhouse and the Rosenbaum only tried to grab his gun after he had been shot at. Rosenbaum was shot five times and was not armed.  The head injury wasn’t the fatal shot.

This would be a death penalty case if Wisconsin had the death penalty


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: koods]
    #26903384 - 08/28/20 01:05 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The court document appears to only mention the shots that Kyle took, but there are still unidentified gunshots. The NYT did a pretty good video annotation series.

The first shot appears to have been from an unidentified person with a handgun shooting in the air - three unidentified shots are fired after Kyle's four shots - and two series of at least eight unidentified shots each are heard after the second shooting.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26903519 - 08/28/20 05:57 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I've seen the video, I would react the same way you get with in arms reach of me and i feel threatened your dead. If I had $$$ i'd pay for this guys full legal defense team.


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But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: HappyHigh]
    #26903556 - 08/28/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think there's two shooters


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #26903558 - 08/28/20 06:28 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think the first pop wasn't Rittenhouse look the guy in the black standing behind the other guy is he shooting a gun?


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #26903561 - 08/28/20 06:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

His back is turned on the first shot atleast. Then he turns and unloads.


Edited by CHeifM4sterDiezL (08/28/20 06:30 AM)


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: koods]
    #26903562 - 08/28/20 06:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The head injury wasn’t the fatal shot.




Makes sense, it looked like it just grazed the scalp.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26903574 - 08/28/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The court document appears to only mention the shots that Kyle took, but there are still unidentified gunshots. The NYT did a pretty good video annotation series.

The first shot appears to have been from an unidentified person with a handgun shooting in the air - three unidentified shots are fired after Kyle's four shots - and two series of at least eight unidentified shots each are heard after the second shooting.



Can't read this cuz of NYT paywall bullshit what about the other shots I'm hearing and exchange of gunfire


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #26903609 - 08/28/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The court document appears to only mention the shots that Kyle took, but there are still unidentified gunshots. The NYT did a pretty good video annotation series.

The first shot appears to have been from an unidentified person with a handgun shooting in the air - three unidentified shots are fired after Kyle's four shots - and two series of at least eight unidentified shots each are heard after the second shooting.



Can't read this cuz of NYT paywall bullshit what about the other shots I'm hearing and exchange of gunfire



If you cancel loading the page before that screen pops up you can get around it.:grin:


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Kizzle] * 1
    #26903737 - 08/28/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

L. Lin Wood, who defended Nick Sandmann when the media defamed him, is going to be assisting with Kyle's case.

Good. He's going to need help defending himself from people who want him dead for no good reason.

kid was acting in self-defense, period. All the footage shows it.

Anyone who thinks they wouldn't have fired in his situation is a liar or naive. For fuckin' real.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26903740 - 08/28/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think I would not have put myself in that situation in the first place.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26903794 - 08/28/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:

kid was acting in self-defense, period. All the footage shows it.





If you believe three shots, including one to the head, was the least force necessary to stop an attack by an unarmed man, then sure.


--------------------
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26903798 - 08/28/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
L. Lin Wood, who defended Nick Sandmann when the media defamed him, is going to be assisting with Kyle's case.

Good. He's going to need help defending himself from people who want him dead for no good reason.

kid was acting in self-defense, period. All the footage shows it.

Anyone who thinks they wouldn't have fired in his situation is a liar or naive. For fuckin' real.




Is there any word on what happened before someone started to chase him?


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: qman]
    #26903826 - 08/28/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah he drove 30 miles to participate in a riot


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26903833 - 08/28/20 09:59 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
L. Lin Wood, who defended Nick Sandmann when the media defamed him, is going to be assisting with Kyle's case.

Good. He's going to need help defending himself from people who want him dead




It’s this kind of over the top violent rhetoric that motivates and inflames people like Rittenhouse.
Knock it off.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: qman] * 1
    #26903854 - 08/28/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah some key aspects imo:

1) The 6th charge for underage possession of a dangerous weapons preexists before any self-defence claim. I believe this part of Wisconsin law would apply:
Quote:

A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.




Assuming the claim is that Kyle did reasonably believe he was in imminent danger of death, this wouldn't still apply:
Quote:

In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self-defense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person's assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.



The video shows Kyle stop and turn around before shooting,, which I don't think would satisfy the requirement to exhaust every other reasonable means to escape first.


2) Kyle was interviewed hours, if not minutes, before and he explicitly states "our job is to protect this business" and "If there is somebody hurt, I’m running into harm’s way. That’s why I have my rifle -- because I can protect myself, obviously." Neither of these statements paints an intent very conducive to arguing self-defence. Relevant part of Wisconsin law:

Quote:

A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.




3) Shooting an unarmed person chasing you is not a proportional response to the threat.

4) Shooting the person closest to you because you hear a gunshot is reckless homicide, not reasonable self-defence.

5) Every person Kyle shot during the second incident has a pretty strong case for self-defence too. Stronger than Kyle's imo.


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26903903 - 08/28/20 10:49 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thats not how those laws work but ok if thats the fantasy world you want to live in.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 1
    #26903940 - 08/28/20 11:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You make a compelling argument.

I'm not a lawyer, so by all means provide your own interpretation of how these laws work.


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse: guilty or not guilty? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26903949 - 08/28/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You make a compelling argument.

I'm not a lawyer, so by all means provide your own interpretation of how these laws work.





I think I can sum it up:

"Nuh uhh"


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn


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