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Offlinemonkey_accident
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Registered: 05/10/19
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Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...?
    #26900805 - 08/26/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

In the past couple months I've started getting my hands dirty with agar, cloning, isolating.. etc
I've noticed that all of my grows (following the same teks as before) with the new isolated genetics seem to be less fruitful.
In the past, I've gone straight from MSS to grains, and got canopies.
Since then I've messed around with other vars from prints, isolated them on agar and went A2G, but all of those grows have either been contaminated or had a weak yield.
Has anyone else had this same experience or possibly the exact opposite?
As fun as isolating is I just don't know how helpful its being with getting the larger, more consistently yield grows that I'm looking for.
:dogyawn: cheers


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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
Babnik
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Registered: 07/13/20
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: monkey_accident]
    #26900824 - 08/26/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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OfflineJatzan
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #26900876 - 08/26/20 03:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

In favor, there are two factors at play here:
1. Strains which are genetically very different cannot coexist. They reject eachother, compete and borders are formed between the myceliums. You can see this very well on agar. To achieve this, (to make the spores carry more or less the same genetic material) you will need to "water down" the gene pool variety by basically inbreeding for generations.
2. Lets say you have 10 microscopic unfortunate events on your tub (some disease, minor contam, bad luck senescence). If there is mycelium from only 1 place, it will be hit the very hard by these 10 mishaps. If there are 100 myceliums, a good number of them will be unaffected. So myceliums from many places is more resilient than mycelium coming from one place.
(I know that if you break down the mycelium in the jar, there will be plenty of pieces of it, but if in the meantime some disease or f-ed up senescence happened, all the pieces are affected. You know what I mean, with MSS the myceliums stay independent much longer)

Factors against:
1. Having spores with a lot of genetic variety
2. Spores needing to have to properly germinate, mate, become dikaryotic and able to bear fruit.


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Offlinemonkey_accident
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Registered: 05/10/19
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: Jatzan]
    #26900925 - 08/26/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Fucking fantastic, thanks for the response
So, isolated myceliums of "one" genetic pool are more susceptible to contamination as they all have the same "weaknesses", you could say?
But on the contrary a mycelium group with many pools of genetics are more resistant as a whole to the same contamination, diseases, etc.
This makes sense to me... my isolated grows very quickly contaminate when they do, usually before full colonization of the sub. Where as my MSS grows
contaminate much later (if the spawn is clean), after exposure to more possible contaminates (from handling, misting, flooding, etc).
Hmmmmmmm...


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InvisibleFunky Monkey
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #26901006 - 08/26/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

smalltalk_canceled said:
:threadmonitor:




Ditto


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OfflineDnDRnD
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Registered: 10/08/18
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: Jatzan]
    #26901072 - 08/26/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It's most likely that your culture was still contaminated some OR your surface conditions are off, full canopies are very reliant on good surface conditions just as much as genetics

It's also possible that when your going from agar to grain your contaminating it there, you mentioned all the jars either contaminate or have wealth yields and bacteria can drastically affect yields as well

So it could be your original agar isnt cleaned up enough, OR it could be that your sterile technique just needs some practice when going A2G, OR mabye your surface conditions are off or a combo of all 3

Dont worry about senescence, it takes ALOT of transfers to reach it and no normal hobby grower has to worry about it

The biggest factor against spores to grain that wasnt mentioned is that mushrooms arnt fruited in a sterile environment so the spores are inherently dirty and therefore makes MS to grain a total crapshoot

If you have a clean culture it doesn't matter how many strains are inside it (a strain is anywhere two mycelial thread cross each other) because a clean healthy culture can defend itself from contamination when its substrate is 100% colonized whether it's an isolate or not


--------------------
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Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: Funky Monkey]
    #26901085 - 08/26/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funky Monkey said:
Quote:

smalltalk_canceled said:
:threadmonitor:




Ditto




i want canopy

my only idea is to double the spawn, say, use 10 quars of grain spawn where it says 5, i mean there will be so much myc and so much nutrition
mayb you can just macro force a big fruiting which isnt really true high BE% but at least

it will look big

and you can show it to shromery


Edited by smalltalk_canceled (08/26/20 06:07 PM)


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Offlinemonkey_accident
fail now learn later


Registered: 05/10/19
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26901087 - 08/26/20 06:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Okay thank you, that clears some things up.
I spent some time today looking at the plates I recently transferred and I think that could be the vector of my contamination issues.
My eye for spotting contamination on plates that isn't terribly obvious is not as keen as I thought,
and as you mentioned it could be my sterile technique as well. but I've never had issues with obvious contamination from my sterile technique, i find myself quite thorough.
I'm going to try to be very selective with the plates I put onto grains in the coming days/weeks and see if I can resolve my issue, possibly down sizing to testing shoeboxes.


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OfflineDnDRnD
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: monkey_accident]
    #26901251 - 08/26/20 08:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

monkey_accident said:
Okay thank you, that clears some things up.
I spent some time today looking at the plates I recently transferred and I think that could be the vector of my contamination issues.
My eye for spotting contamination on plates that isn't terribly obvious is not as keen as I thought,
and as you mentioned it could be my sterile technique as well. but I've never had issues with obvious contamination from my sterile technique, i find myself quite thorough.
I'm going to try to be very selective with the plates I put onto grains in the coming days/weeks and see if I can resolve my issue, possibly down sizing to testing shoeboxes.




I had to practice alot when first getting into A2G, I find it helps to pour some blank plates and use them as practice for taking transfers and doing dry swabs, that way I can set them off to the side and if they contaminate then i know it's in my technique

Another good practice I've found is anytime i think a plate is ready to go to grain I'll take 1 or 2 more transfers just to be safe before actually putting it to grain

I like shoeboxes for all purposes really, they're amazingly simple to dial in!


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26901327 - 08/26/20 09:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The more you isolate the more the remaining strains take over, so you’re just hoping to land on good genetics which is rare but when you find good ones they’re awesome.

I’ve never really been into lots of isolating, almost all of my cultures are on grain by t2.


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Offlinemonkey_accident
fail now learn later


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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26901779 - 08/27/20 08:19 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I appreciate the advice Aka.
I took a pin from a plate and transferred it, that one is the cleanest looking plate ive got.
Gonna transfer it once or twice and throw it on grain see how it goes.


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: monkey_accident]
    #26901797 - 08/27/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Like 90% or more of all my grows have been MS. Get a good variety that doesn't need cloning and you're GTG. I've been saying it for years, but Stropharia & Texas Orange Cap won't do you wrong. B+ can too, but everytime I do B+, the canopies come out with smaller fruits. Biggest fruits are easily the TOC. grows in my sig are stro/toc ms as well.


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26901924 - 08/27/20 09:21 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

it seems to me like you have a pretty good chance of a 8/10 canopy with any decent variety MS if you have clean spawn and proper conditions. If you start randomly isolating straight from spore that likelihood will drop but you may blindly isolate something killer and get a 10/10 culture.

If you go MS and then clone nice cluster fruits you’ll have a decent chance at good canopies or junk. Isolation does nothing but limit genetics, for good or ill. You’ve got to spend time and energy finding the right stuff.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26901937 - 08/27/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn’t ever consider a ms canopy to be just luck. There needs to be axenic spawn, proper field capacity, and a well dialed in chamber to see a canopy regardless of the genetics at play. Genetics simply may or may not be a piece of the puzzle. A killer fruiting clone will still suck if the aforementioned conditions are not sufficiently met.


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Offlinemonkey_accident
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Registered: 05/10/19
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26901940 - 08/27/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Appreciate the advice my man.
Not familiar with TOC what does that stand for?
And by MS you dont mean MSS right?
I assume you mean just having a clean non isolated culture.


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: monkey_accident]
    #26901954 - 08/27/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

toc = texas orange cap. ms = multispore.


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Offlinemonkey_accident
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26901968 - 08/27/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Sir Pasty :bow2:

I understand how many factors are in play to get a canopy,
but i think my problem is in my culture, being genetics or contamination.
I'm going to do a fresh MS grow, take a clone off a good cluster,
transfer one or twice as needed to get rid of the yucky and put that to grain.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are MSS canopies just beginner's luck...? [Re: monkey_accident]
    #26902055 - 08/27/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Toc for sure puts out the most giants ime. Aa+ too.


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