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Onlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900593 - 08/26/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Koods, you may be right. I haven't looked into all the laws behind those things, though if the rioters on the other side are already breaking laws such as, "crossed state lines to participate in a riot," I don't really care.

I want the actual story first, and then we can talk about it. In the meantime, the jury is out for me.




The rioters on the other side didn’t kill anyone


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26900594 - 08/26/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

17 is too young to purchase or open carry an AR yet he had one.

Crossing state lines to participate in a riot is a federal offense.

Shooting someone to protect property that isnt yours and isnt under immediate threat is a felony.

He broke many laws. This is indisputable.




Then he needs to be tried for them, and I would be convinced to agree with you that this was at the very least a homicide, if not murder. I want the full story still.

As a side note, I want to re-emphasize a point Qman made earlier: This is going to be very different if its tried in smaller towns. If people ARE defending their own property and aren't breaking laws like this little moron did (where the fucking parents??), then when someone gets shot, it isn't going to be the fault of the shooter like it was this time.

I also worry about escalation at this point. It's getting worse out there...


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/26/20 01:39 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26900601 - 08/26/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

Eminence said:
So you want the cops to get him now, right?





Nobody here has said anything about cops not arresting criminals.

The argument is that criminals should not be killed extra judicially by police,
and that police should be held accountable.

In fact, i have stated dozens of times that all criminals should see their day in court,
including mass shooters like the parkland shooter or aurora shooter.

Nice try though dude. obviously you dont care about actually following a thread or logic,
you only care about your own outrage:lol:




I agree with all of this ideologically. (except your accusation at the end, I think your opponent is arguing in more good faith than you give him credit for.)

Realistically, we'll never have a system where cops don't have to shoot sometimes. We should always strive to make it better, but until humans OURSELVES act like we're high on mushrooms/lsd more often when we're sober... aint gonna happen.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/26/20 01:41 PM)


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26900602 - 08/26/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

Eminence said:
So you want the cops to get him now, right?





Nobody here has said anything about cops not arresting criminals.

The argument is that criminals should not be killed extra judicially by police,
and that police should be held accountable.

In fact, i have stated dozens of times that all criminals should see their day in court,
including mass shooters like the parkland shooter or aurora shooter.

Nice try though dude. obviously you dont care about actually following a thread or logic,
you only care about your own outrage:lol:




That's good. I wasn't really trying to "trap" you or anything, although I see why it looks that way. I was just testing your answer because I don't know you, but you do have some beliefs that align with a lot of the abolish police types, and I've seen a good amount of them turn around and call for police plenty of times.


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Eminence] * 1
    #26900607 - 08/26/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Can you please quote where I said anything about abolishing police?

I think federally limiting the funding of police is needed. No more military surplus
etc. I believe better training is needed. I think qualified immunity needs to be done away with.
I think yearly exams and assessments need to be conducted to ensure they are still qualified for the job.

Never once have I or anybody here besides maybe shiva said we need to fully abolish the
police, unless I missed it. If you have proof that I or nybody else said the
above, I'd love to read it.


Otherwise, quit making shit up


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods]
    #26900609 - 08/26/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Koods, you may be right. I haven't looked into all the laws behind those things, though if the rioters on the other side are already breaking laws such as, "crossed state lines to participate in a riot," I don't really care.

I want the actual story first, and then we can talk about it. In the meantime, the jury is out for me.




The rioters on the other side didn’t kill anyone





There have been killings, just nothing as blatant as this footage. Give it time.

I'm not a fan of the far-right either, man. I just see them as less of a threat and their numbers far fewer than the mobs of people destroying our cities. In time we'll see who the larger threat is, right?

...and if I was to be convinced that the far right was a larger threat, I'd harp on them more like I did 10 years ago, but I find their power to be fading for the most part. Most young conservative types are a lot more open minded than their parents and grandparents, because they are either not religious or have made their religion so malleable, I don't even recognize it compared to how it used to be.

Anyway, for the record... I want to know why he fired the first time still, but if he broke all those federal and state laws to begin with, he really gone and fucked up.

But I'll say one more time, with rioters and looters, this shit was bound to happen, and the next time someone is shot the bullet may be from an actual adult defending his own property in his own town.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/26/20 01:55 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26900613 - 08/26/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Can you please quote where I said anything about abolishing police?

I think federally limiting the funding of police is needed. No more military surplus
etc. I believe better training is needed. I think qualified immunity needs to be done away with.
I think yearly exams and assessments need to be conducted to ensure they are still qualified for the job.

Never once have I or anybody here besides maybe shiva said we need to fully abolish the
police, unless I missed it. If you have proof that I or nybody else said the
above, I'd love to read it.


Otherwise, quit making shit up




Enlil seems to have pretty strong feelings for it, considering he would prefer all cops dead. I would say, despite being a bit... different... that's still wanting the police abolished. :lol:

I'm sure there are others that have similar views, here. A lot of people lurk or rarely post.


--------------------


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900616 - 08/26/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Dude watch the video. He ran a half block down the street with his gun pointed at the guy he shot. It doesn’t matter what the other dude did. He created the situation and was the aggressor.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900617 - 08/26/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Also, the "abolish police" movement itself doesn't even mean, "fully" abolish police. It means cut their funding, usually. To quote, "abolish police" is not to invoke the idea of them being 100% abolished in the first place.


--------------------


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods]
    #26900623 - 08/26/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Dude watch the video. He ran a half block down the street with his gun pointed at the guy he shot. It doesn’t matter what the other dude did. He created the situation and was the aggressor.




I'm no longer debating with you about any of that unless something major comes out that changes the story. I just want to hear the actual full account before passing my judgment completely.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/26/20 01:53 PM)


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900629 - 08/26/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Vahn for once we agree :lol:

Abolish the police usually doesnt mean to fully abolish. It is a right wing talking
point based on fear mongering. Asking the fed to not give cops the same
equipment our military uses against our enemies for use against american citizens is not abolishing police.

We pay their wages. Why are we treated, as a whole, as enemies? Every citizen can
one day have such technology used against them. That is not ok.

One day they came for my neighbor and I said nothing, the next day they came for me and
nobody was left to stand against them. If cops justify their actions because
the peolle they kill are criminals, that sets a bad precedent. What is legal
now may very well be illegal in a10 years or 10 days.


--------------------


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InvisibleEminence
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Registered: 07/25/10
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26900633 - 08/26/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

God damn dude. Quit telling me to quit making shit up when I'm not making anything up :lol: I said you have some beliefs that align with those who want to abolish the police, I did not say YOU want to because I didn't know whether you thought so either way.


--------------------




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Onlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900634 - 08/26/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Dude watch the video. He ran a half block down the street with his gun pointed at the guy he shot. It doesn’t matter what the other dude did. He created the situation and was the aggressor.




I'm no longer debating with you about any of that unless something major comes out that changes the story. I just want to hear the actual full account before passing my judgment completely.



It’s all on video. Enough to determine he has no defense.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlineqman
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900648 - 08/26/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I'm hearing from a friend that the first shooting was because the shooter went to go defend property from some people breaking and lighting cars on fire and violence started to escalate. I'm also hearing something about a molotov cocktail thrown at the shooter first.

I'll try to get him to verify his sources soon. This would change the story for me, and I'm with Qman on this one. If police are standing down and people wanna break other people's property, what did you all expect was going to happen sooner or later?




Let's be very clear, defending one's home residence is entirely different than defending some strangers downtown business with a lethal weapon.

Make no mistake about it, if a mob tries to enter my residence, my response has total clarity and doesn't involve any shades of grey.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26900660 - 08/26/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Vahn for once we agree :lol:

Abolish the police usually doesnt mean to fully abolish. It is a right wing talking
point based on fear mongering. Asking the fed to not give cops the same
equipment our military uses against our enemies for use against american citizens is not abolishing police.

We pay their wages. Why are we treated, as a whole, as enemies? Every citizen can
one day have such technology used against them. That is not ok.

One day they came for my neighbor and I said nothing, the next day they came for me and
nobody was left to stand against them. If cops justify their actions because
the peolle they kill are criminals, that sets a bad precedent. What is legal
now may very well be illegal in a10 years or 10 days.



Well according to trump that equipment was just sitting in warehouses collecting dust, so they thought the police could make better use of them rather than sitting idle in a warehouse. Not arguing that they need that equipment per se but i can see the logic of repurposing it to police departments rather than destroying it

Im not really sure how defunding the police would make us any safer though. The police just need better training and different tactics while dealing with criminals or potential criminals.
Something like 40% of murders go unsolved. If you defund them and provide them with less resources i wouldn't see their success rate for say investigating murders going up


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26900669 - 08/26/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

No. Obama stopped the practice because it isn’t appropriate to militarize domestic law enforcement. It is abused.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123] * 2
    #26900676 - 08/26/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, it's kinda funny. You go into black neighborhoods with a lot of crime and the ones who aren't committing the crimes are the ones that do NOT want to defund the police. Better training? Sure. But it's the people that want to rob and kill and whatever else that just flat out want them defunded or gone. I imagine it's the same case in probably every other community too.


--------------------




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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26900688 - 08/26/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Vahn for once we agree :lol:

Abolish the police usually doesnt mean to fully abolish. It is a right wing talking
point based on fear mongering. Asking the fed to not give cops the same
equipment our military uses against our enemies for use against american citizens is not abolishing police.

We pay their wages. Why are we treated, as a whole, as enemies? Every citizen can
one day have such technology used against them. That is not ok.

One day they came for my neighbor and I said nothing, the next day they came for me and
nobody was left to stand against them. If cops justify their actions because
the peolle they kill are criminals, that sets a bad precedent. What is legal
now may very well be illegal in a10 years or 10 days.




You see, the libertarian in me wants as small of a presence of police as possible as well, actually. But I have to balance "small" with, "as possible." The first part is my idealism and the second, my realism.

The variable is the human condition. Many people are still savages, even if they/we won't admit it. Knowing how evil humans can be and knowing that law enforcement has to stare that in the face constantly while we don't have to, I have a lot of sympathy for them and I find the dilemma of how to train them better to be quite concerning, because cops are just... us. They are humans. This seems to be the best we got.

If anyone else can do it better, can they please step up? Because we need them badly. But where are they? Nowhere to be found right now. Why? Because humans are shitty and this is the best we got.

Humans are shitty and therefore there is crime.

Humans are shitty and therefore we can't find better cops than what we got.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good humans, too... but that doesn't take away from the bad that is all around us, either.

It's a game, we're all the players, and this is the best we got for now. I'm all for doing what it takes to make it better, but don't expect an already imperfect group of humans who have to stare the worst of murder and death in the face constantly to never make mistakes. It's a fucking tragedy all around when shit happens and we need to hold our law enforcement accountable in some way still, but I still don't know if even defunding the police is smart beyond just (harping on it again), ending the drug war.


--------------------


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: qman] * 1
    #26900692 - 08/26/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I'm hearing from a friend that the first shooting was because the shooter went to go defend property from some people breaking and lighting cars on fire and violence started to escalate. I'm also hearing something about a molotov cocktail thrown at the shooter first.

I'll try to get him to verify his sources soon. This would change the story for me, and I'm with Qman on this one. If police are standing down and people wanna break other people's property, what did you all expect was going to happen sooner or later?




Let's be very clear, defending one's home residence is entirely different than defending some strangers downtown business with a lethal weapon.

Make no mistake about it, if a mob tries to enter my residence, my response has total clarity and doesn't involve any shades of grey.




Yes, I like that this point has been clarified in this conversation and I'm now in full agreement. Especially in conjunction with the idea that he broke other federal and state laws. (I have not looked it up, but I'm assuming it's true.) (See? I have good faith in my opposition when I can tell they are making a good case. Haha.)


--------------------


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Eminence] * 1
    #26900696 - 08/26/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
Yeah, it's kinda funny. You go into black neighborhoods with a lot of crime and the ones who aren't committing the crimes are the ones that do NOT want to defund the police. Better training? Sure. But it's the people that want to rob and kill and whatever else that just flat out want them defunded or gone. I imagine it's the same case in probably every other community too.




Oh fuck yeah, dude. Hearing, "defund the police" is every criminal's wet dream and if they have any sort of political power (criminals aren't just shady thugs in basements), they're going to be lobbying for the same as much as they can. Make no mistake, every law breaking criminal is all for this movement. :lol:

Can we just start with, "End the Drug War?"

Pretty please?


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