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HamHead
Hard Ass Motherfucker



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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: koods]
#26899611 - 08/25/20 10:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
The reversal by Walz, a first-term Democrat, clears the way for doctors to prescribe hydroxychloroquine, a drug commonly used to treat malaria and other conditions but one the FDA has declined to recommend for COVID-19 treatment.
Doctors are free to prescribe any drug they wish for anything, including HCQ for covid.
Pharmacies were limited in filling these prescriptions because people who had prescriptions written for FDA approved conditions were not able to get the drug due to shortages.
🤦‍♂️ I'm going to bed.
@morrowasted early treatment.
When does "acidosis and develop hyperkalemia" occur?
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: koods]
#26899612 - 08/25/20 10:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I’m trying to think of another drug that only works if you give it early in a disease. I mean, it’s always better to treat early, but there’s no reason an antiviral drug that worked well early wouldn’t work at all later in the disease process. It may be too late for many people but some people should improve. It doesn’t make sense
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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cannabinated



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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: koods]
#26899635 - 08/25/20 10:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



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Why do people in this thread keep calling HCQ an antiviral, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it an anti-parasytic drug, malaria being caused by Plasmodium parasite. I mean, it has some weak binding to ACE2 glycans, and some other MOAs that are poorly understood. But antiviral it is most definitely not.
So after an exhaustive search, 10 minutes on gooogle and google scholar, HCQ is not FDA approved for the treatment of a single viral infection, except off label were data is sketchy at best.
Just to get the lingo clear, HamHead has people calling it an antiviral, meaning he has won half the battle already, language matters.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: koods]
#26899651 - 08/25/20 11:03 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: I’m trying to think of another drug that only works if you give it early in a disease. I mean, it’s always better to treat early, but there’s no reason an antiviral drug that worked well early wouldn’t work at all later in the disease process. It may be too late for many people but some people should improve. It doesn’t make sense
Beta blockers(lol just being a dick for devil's advocate sake Koods). Though this class also shows improvements in patients even in later stages of cardio-vascular disease.
Birth control, if being pregnant can be defined a a disease state
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
Edited by Ice9 (08/25/20 11:04 PM)
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HamHead
Hard Ass Motherfucker



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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: Ice9]
#26899902 - 08/26/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(06)70361-9/fulltext
Oh, the Lancet. Still reliable?
REFLECTION AND REACTION| VOLUME 6, ISSUE 2, P67-69, FEBRUARY 01, 2006 New insights into the antiviral effects of chloroquine
In a paper published 2 years ago in this journal, some of us described the potentially therapeutic benefits of the quinoline antimalarial chloroquine in viral diseases such as HIV-1/AIDS and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).1 Chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine has since been adopted to treat HIV-1-infected patients in clinical trials, and new insights into its antiviral activity have been obtained from in-vitro studies.
Our hypothesis that chloroquine might inhibit replication of the SARS coronavirus1 has been confirmed in two independent in-vitro studies.7, 8 Researchers at the Belgian Catholic University of Leuven found that chloroquine inhibited SARS coronavirus replication with a 50% effective concentration of 8·8 (SE 1·2) μmol/L, within the range of blood concentrations achievable during antimalarial treatment.7 The dose inducing 50% cytostatic activity was much higher (261·3 [14·5] μmol/L). Time-of-addition experiments indicated that chloroquine affected an early stage of SARS coronavirus replication.7 Researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (Atlanta, GA, USA) reported potent anti-SARS coronavirus effects of chloroquine in vitro, attributable to a deficit in the glycosylation of the SARS coronavirus receptor ACE2.8 Again, the antiviral drug concentrations were not cytotoxic. If animal models confirm these results, chloroquine might represent a valuable therapeutic option if SARS re-emerges.
Edit.
I find it odd how it's been 14 years since this study was done, why weren't those clinical trials put into motion?
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
Edited by HamHead (08/26/20 06:11 AM)
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feevers


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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
#26899992 - 08/26/20 06:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Bleach (and probably a billion other compounds) would stop coronavirus replication in vitro, that doesn't mean chugging bleach will help you.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
#26900025 - 08/26/20 07:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
HamHead said: I find it odd how it's been 14 years since this study was done, why weren't those clinical trials put into motion? 
Your point being?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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koods
Ribbit



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There were clinical trials on HCQ when the virus was only in China. HCQ hasn’t been ignored. It was standard treatment for covid, undoubtedly due in part to papers like the one hamhead posted.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: koods]
#26900164 - 08/26/20 09:22 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I find it odd how it's been 14 years since this study was done, why weren't those clinical trials put into motion? 
At that time, it was because SARS went away, so there was no longer any need to treat it.
I'm about to make a long post. The purpose of this post is not to make you feel stupid or inferior- I am sincerely reaching out to you, as one person with an interest in medicine to another. I sincerely ask you to read all of it, because I am investing a lot of time in making it. If I say something you already know, don't feel like I am trying to condescend to you- I am just trying to be thorough. Should you feel tempted to reply to a portion prior to having finished reading the post, I implore you to instead finish reading the post, and then decide what you want to say.
The first stage of learning about medicine and medical practice is exhilarating. Medicine is essentially the collection of the practices from what had been called "sorcery", "shamanism", "herbalism", and "alchemy" that actually turned out to be effective at ending or reducing the suffering, injury, and death of others- how could it not be exciting? It makes you feel powerful, because when medicine is done right, it is powerful. It isn't unusual to feel a kind of "manic excitement" when you embark on the journey of learning about medical practice.
For at least 2,000 years, those calling themselves doctors have had effective medicines for reducing suffering- primarily opium and alcohol. Prior to the advent of institutions that regulate the production and distribution of medicine, like the FDA, medical practice largely consisted of the sale of what were called "patent medicines". Although patent medicines rarely cured the illnesses they were purported to cure, they frequently made patients "feel better" because they contained things like alcohol, opium, and cocaine.
In the late 1800s, the discovery of microorganisms and their connection to diseases caused a revolution in medical practices: suddenly, the prospect of not only alleviating suffering, but also preventing death from disease, seemed to be within reach. For many decades thereafter, the discovery of effective medicines took place largely by accident and/or by conducting experiments that today would be considered highly unethical- for example, the cause of beriberi, the disease caused by a deficiency of vitamin B1 (Thiamin), was discovered by observing that prisoners fed a diet of white rice developed the disease far more frequently than prisoners fed a diet of brown rice.
The principles of the modern clinical were developed in the 1920s, but the first randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled clinical trial did not take place until 1946 to evaluate the efficacy of streptomycin in tuberculosis treatment. Increasingly widespread adoption of this clinical trial process in the decades that followed led to an explosion in the discovery of medicines that are both effective and safe at reducing or ending suffering and death resulting from injury and disease.
In the context of modern medicine, there are two broad categories of study used to evaluate the efficacy of a medical treatment: (1) Observational studies involve simply observing subjects and measuring their outcomes. (2) Interventional studies involve actively measuring the differences in outcomes between a group of people who are given a treatment and a group of people who are not.
With respect to SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, there are 4 relevant subtypes of study: observational studies, prevention trials, treatment trials, and compassionate use trials.
"In vitro" translates to "in glass": within the context of infectious disease studies, in vitro experiments involve culturing a pathogen (bacteria, virus, fungus, or protozoa) in a petri dish, and then adding in various chemicals to see what effect the chemicals have on the pathogen. In this stage, scientists simply use concepts from chemistry, human physiology, and microbiology to make their "best guess" about what sort of chemical will have the desired effect on the pathogen. For example, as feevers mentioned, scientists can guess based on the chemical properties of bleach that it is likely to destroy the SARS-CoV-2 virus. However, they can also guess based on human physiology that bleach is likely to destroy human tissues as well; therefore, they are unlikely to run an in vitro study of bleach on SARS-CoV-2.
Here is a non-comprehensive list of reasons that a chemical which is effective at destroying a chemical in a petri dish may not prove to useful for treating the disease that pathogen causes in humans:
- When the chemical passes through the liver, it is converted into different chemicals that are not effective
- The absorption of the chemical is either very poor, or varies widely from human to human
- Once the chemical is absorbed, it is not distributed effectively throughout the body. For example, it may be quickly absorbed by fat cells, or excessive amounts of it may bind to proteins in the bloodstream that make it incapable of exiting the bloodstream and penetrating human tissues
- The undesirable effects of the drug on human tissues may outweigh the desirable effects of the drug on the pathogen
For these reasons, among others, it turns out that only a very small percentage of chemicals that are effective in vitro turn out to be effective in vivo.
The first studies released with respect to COVID-19 were observational studies. Because doctors were aware of in vitro studies conducted on SARS-CoV using HCQ, they made a reasonable guess that it might have similar effects on SARS-CoV-2. Furthermore, previously conducted clinical trials on HCQ provided doctors with useful information about the absorption, distribution, side effects, and toxicity of HCQ. Therefore, doctors determined that it was worthwhile to attempt HCQ treatment for COVID-19 patients without having conducted any in vivo (in life) studies, because patients were dying from COVID19 at an alarming rate. After having given HCQ to a reasonably large sample of COVID-19 patients, scientists used principles from statistics to conduct observational studies.
Having done so, there was no indication that HCQ was either overwhelmingly effective or overwhelmingly dangerous- a significant proportion of patients receiving it still died, and the number of deaths/injuries that could be attributed to HCQ was acceptably low. Therefore, doctors and scientists embarked on in randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials of HCQ to get more information about precisely how effective it was.
Here in the USA, concurrently with the HCQ clinical trials, trials on another drug called Remdesivir were being conducted. Since Remdesivir has no history of approved use, these were called "compassionate use" trials- the potential risks of giving the drug were considered to be acceptable given the severity of COVID-19.
In many hospitals- the one I work at included- these drugs were being given concurrently- some patients were receiving HCQ (and zinc/azithromycin), and others were receiving Remdesivir. Because of the randomization process, there were moderately ill patients and severely ill patients receiving each, there were early stage patients and late stage patients receiving each, and there were patients with various comorbid diseases receiving each. Within about 6-8 weeks, it became clear to medical practitioners that patients receiving Remdesivir were more likely to recover from COVID19 than those receiving HCQ, and that among recovered patients receiving either drug, those receiving Remdesivir recovered more quickly. It also became clear while no patients appeared to be dying as a result of side effects of Remdesivir, occasionally patients were dying as a result of the side effects of HCQ. Among those who did not die, patients receiving HCQ required more careful monitoring and consideration with regard to other medical treatments being given than those receiving Remdesivir.
These results were communicated between medical practitioners around the world, and were corroborated. Hospitals/governments in other countries sought to- and did- obtain as much Remdesivir as they able to. Unfortunately for the citizens of those countries, the supply of Remdesivir is limited. Therefore, many of them resumed trials using what was available to them, which was HCQ. As cases accumulate and sample sizes grow, it may yet demonstrate some level of efficacy. They may be able to show that HCQ is more likely to help rather than harm the patient.
Depending on those results, hospitals in the USA may begin to re-consider the use of HCQ. For the moment, they have no compelling reason to do so. Remdesivir is not only clearly helping patients, it's helping them leave the hospital more quickly. A major problem with COVID-19 is that patients are not infrequently hospitalized for several weeks at a time. This creates logistical problems. The fact that hospitals are reimbursed a fixed amount of money for treating a COVID-19 patient- an amount that typically covers 2 weeks or less of expenses related to treating the patient- also creates a compelling reason for them to try to treat COVID-19 patients with the drug that helps them recover more quickly.
Quote:
When does "acidosis and develop hyperkalemia" occur?
It depends on the patient. Some patients are already acidotic and hyperkalemic before ever contracting COVID19- they may have uncontrolled diabetes, which results in ketoacidosis. They may have chronic kidney disease, which results in hyperkalemia. These conditions are very common in the USA. This is one reason among many that it would be unwise to give patients HCQ without conducting an assessment, either by prescription or over the counter.
The type of blood clotting disorder caused by COVID19 can also precipitate hyperkalemia very quickly in an otherwise healthy patient. The clots traveling through the bloodstream may suddenly get stuck in and clog the blood vessels supplying the kidneys, which will rapidly lead to acute kidney failure, and thus to hyperkalemia. If this happens before the patient begins treatment, we would certainly withhold HCQ treatment, in order to avoid causing the patient to develop a fatal heart dysrhythmia. However, a patient already receiving HCQ may also develop sudden-onset acute kidney failure in this way. Then we are in the position of trying to quickly correct the problem- giving Calcium gluconate to protect against hyperkalemia-induced dysrhythmias, and removing potassium from the blood with Keyexalate. If it isn't done quickly enough, we find ourselves putting pads on the patient and attempting to shock their heart back into normal rhythm.
Alternatively, we can simply give the patient Remdesivir and not worry about any of that. Have diabetes? Remdesivir is safe. Have kidney disease? Heart disease? Liver failure? Remdesivir is safe with all of these conditions. And while it doesn't save everyone, it works quite well.
Being able to save lives with Remdesivir is exciting. We like to save lives. We like to save them as quickly as possible. We like to save them as inexpensively as possible.
If you want the power to save lives, heal injuries, and reduce suffering, I understand, and I can relate. It is, again, an exhilarating experience. Being good at it takes dedication, critical thinking, focus, and patience. I don't know everything there is to know- not even close. But every day I learn how to do it just a little bit better. The exhilaration I feel from saving lives isn't reduced at all when someone else when someone else saves a life- it's not a competition. The better each person is at saving lives, the better off we all are. If what you truly care about is saving lives rather than "being correct", I'm willing to help you in any way I can. All you have to do is ask.
Peace
Edited by morrowasted (08/26/20 01:06 PM)
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HamHead
Hard Ass Motherfucker



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They carry pads in outpatient settings?
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
HamHead said: I find it odd how it's been 14 years since this study was done, why weren't those clinical trials put into motion? 
Your point being?
Simple really. If they found HCQ to be effective, why not do clinical trials, just to make sure?
But since SARS burned out, there was no need for further studies if it's no longer needed as such a treatment.
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: HamHead]
#26900320 - 08/26/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Please read my post, HamHead.
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downwardsfromzero
Stranger than that

Registered: 08/11/20
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted] 1
#26900434 - 08/26/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Writhing and groaning
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mndfreeze 
Shroomery Secret Service




Registered: 04/22/02
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Natural News
-------------------- Nothing says love like grannies prolapsed anus! quote]Urb said: I know... Its fucked up... Ill fix it minyana..[/quote]
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downwardsfromzero
Stranger than that

Registered: 08/11/20
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: mndfreeze]
#26900471 - 08/26/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
mndfreeze said: Natural News 
Yes, I know. I was trolling more than a bit with that one. Are you willing to address the information contained therein, however? Are you contesting whether ECGC and quercetin are zinc ionophores?
-------------------- Writhing and groaning
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mndfreeze 
Shroomery Secret Service




Registered: 04/22/02
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The entire article can be summed up with its own words:
“Correlation is obviously not causation"
Bad sources are bad sources and don't really need a deep dive.
-------------------- Nothing says love like grannies prolapsed anus! quote]Urb said: I know... Its fucked up... Ill fix it minyana..[/quote]
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: mndfreeze]
#26900496 - 08/26/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7126871/
This was the original study used as the basis for guessing that remdesivir would work against SARS-CoV. It was developed specifically as an antiviral for RNA viruses like CoV. At the time it was referred to as GS-5734
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted]
#26900505 - 08/26/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quercetin and ECGC are a zinc ionophore. How effective it is at treating diseases remains unclear.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf5014633
ECGC is hepatotoxic at high doses though. I just eat plants and drink tea and take a 30mg zinc supplement. Not sure that it helps but it might and it certainly doesnt hurt in naturally occurring amounts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2905152/
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted] 1
#26900745 - 08/26/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quercertin is present in citrus, grapes, apples, berries, broccoli, cherries. And wine
I load up at breakfast every day
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feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine sulfate [Re: morrowasted]
#26900857 - 08/26/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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No breakfast wine?
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