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OfflineNemo98
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Psilocybin truth or lies
    #26897845 - 08/24/20 08:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Has anyone considered the possibility that psilocybin is intentionally deceiving you and that what it says, shows you, messages you take away from it and how it affects your view of things is all a lie?


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Offlinethe strander
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: Nemo98] * 2
    #26897940 - 08/24/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Psilocybin doesn't show you things, it enables your own brain to show you things.

Is your brain lying to you?

No, it's just doing it's normal perceiving and thinking thing in a different way than usual. There is no truth or lie, just different amounts of information you can have and different ways of perceiving and processing that information.

You can decide afterwards if you seemed to learn things that were just things you hoped to be true and that aren't based in something you believe when the trip wears off.


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OfflineNemo98
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: the strander]
    #26897964 - 08/24/20 11:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

How can you say for certain the psilocybin experience isn't external?


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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: Nemo98]
    #26898000 - 08/25/20 01:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The world is abstract. "External" today still means something like rich people wearing wigs in scholarly places decided it did, namely, that it was a fairly basic machine.

After a certain amount of changing of the mind, you can come to realise that the world is an internal state, start to finish. Multileveled, and unanswered for.

You sound a bit schizoid. Schizophrenia is a physical condition, it arises from poor childhoods especially ones with episodes of trauma. Schizophrenia is the condition a traumatized child is left in, and the brain grows from there. Essentially some parts of the brain aren't as big as others. (Don't bother with medication)

I think mushrooms can probably help with schizoid brains. Just my opinion and experience. They regrow the brain, that's one.


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LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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OfflineNemo98
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26898096 - 08/25/20 04:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

How did you achieve changing your mind to gain better understanding? Was this realization brought on by any specific chemical?


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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: Nemo98]
    #26898119 - 08/25/20 04:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn't say the things mushies show you are lies, but I would definitely call them illusions. The things that they can teach is how you integrate those illusions into your every day experience.

I think that all of my understandings and beliefs are subjective illusion in themselves though. Experience itself is a coloured lens that is focused by my consciousness.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: lostintimenspc] * 3
    #26898123 - 08/25/20 04:49 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
The world is abstract. "External" today still means something like rich people wearing wigs in scholarly places decided it did, namely, that it was a fairly basic machine.

After a certain amount of changing of the mind, you can come to realise that the world is an internal state, start to finish. Multileveled, and unanswered for.

You sound a bit schizoid. Schizophrenia is a physical condition, it arises from poor childhoods especially ones with episodes of trauma. Schizophrenia is the condition a traumatized child is left in, and the brain grows from there. Essentially some parts of the brain aren't as big as others. (Don't bother with medication)

I think mushrooms can probably help with schizoid brains. Just my opinion and experience. They regrow the brain, that's one.



Schioid is not schizophrenic and he's said nothing that indicates any of that. Furthermore going on a diatribe over your armchair psychology based on two sentences is ridiculous. You may as well just have said, "LOL, rough childhood huh?" just because you disagree with some assessment of reality he has. Then to top it off you recommend not using medications to deal with schizophrenia. You really gotta think a little more than that.


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: Nemo98]
    #26898124 - 08/25/20 04:52 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nemo98 said:
Has anyone considered the possibility that psilocybin is intentionally deceiving you and that what it says, shows you, messages you take away from it and how it affects your view of things is all a lie?



Assuming assurity of contact, you can't really know the difference between a positive and a negative force. It's how you allow it to interact with you that enables it. I don't have to listen to or believe anything.


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #26898666 - 08/25/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Off topic, but reading the thread title I was expecting some sort of gameshow.  That would be a fun addition to the site.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: Nemo98] * 3
    #26898743 - 08/25/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nemo98 said:
How did you achieve changing your mind to gain better understanding? Was this realization brought on by any specific chemical?




Yes, I believe it was the result of serotonin.  :cookiemonster:


--------------------

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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: Nemo98] * 1
    #26899061 - 08/25/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nemo98 said:
Has anyone considered the possibility that psilocybin is intentionally deceiving you and that what it says, shows you, messages you take away from it and how it affects your view of things is all a lie?



Personally, I don't think that psilocybin "says" anything at all. I like comparing a psilocybin trip to the experience of dreaming when it comes to questions like these. Dreams aren't generally considered to be "real" experiences, but they can still have an emotional impact on you, you can reflect on your dreams and see if there are any lessons you can learn from them, and they can even cause physical reactions in your body (like "wet dreams", for example). So, to a certain extent, dreams are "real". At least, they're real enough to have some sort of impact on you. To that end, I don't think there's much meaning behind asking whether or not dreams are "lies" or not. They're just experiences you can have, and you can read into them however much you want to. If you feel like something you experienced under the influence of psilocybin is deceptive or malicious, I think that's on you and not on the chemical.


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Offlinepantocyclus
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: InfiniteDreams]
    #26899628 - 08/25/20 10:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Off topic, but reading the thread title I was expecting some sort of gameshow.  That would be a fun addition to the site.



I entered this thread for the same reason! I was hoping to find a compilation of forum veterans' most interesting/colorful stories(a la the game Truth or Lies). Ah well, back to digging through the archives.

Quote:


Has anyone considered the possibility that psilocybin is intentionally deceiving you and that what it says, shows you, messages you take away from it and how it affects your view of things is all a lie?




Psilocybin is not a conscious entity, it is just a substance. It has no intention so it cannot intentionally deceive you. Nobody is "showing" you anything, just like nobody is showing you the sunset. It just happens and you can interpret it any way you want. However like the sunset a lot of people find the experience of psilocybin on the brain to be quite beautiful, rather than oppressive or deceitful like you are asking about.


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: pantocyclus]
    #26899900 - 08/26/20 04:49 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Everyone who's so sure that there's no actual communication going on, can you guys point me to the study that conclusively tells us what consciousness is and how/where it originates? Science doesn't even act like it has all the answers but when you talk to people so adamant on the side of science people tend to seem pretty close-minded IMO. Consciousness theory is on the forefront of science and new age physics. If consciousness is elemental then it can operate outside of the specific set of parameters the average person sets for it.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #26899965 - 08/26/20 06:05 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Consciousness is impermanent,  The doer as well.  Experience can be known where they disappear. only pure mind is left. Empty & luminous. We can contemplate the strange experiences and any of the negative and positive implications afterwards but not during.  But that’s not every trip.  It can change what we generally take for granted about what we hold to be our most fundamental beliefs, mostly by negation & openness.  Bc it’s something of an insight gained by letting go.  Not by grasping.  The impermanence of a trip and what goes on during it can play the role in our lives through which we learn of the overarching interconnectivity, interdependence, and all permeating impermanence of things, and we can finally experience what it’s like to “lay down the burden” & about what being truthful really means in the grand scheme once we have surrendered to experience in a gentle/calm yet cooly concentrated & grounded way.  Then the experience is of pure mind only.  Not the body.  Everything then that takes place is a reflection of the individuals mind and it will then reflect honestly automatically - your own mind.  If you lie, cheat, and steal, and are quick to anger, impatient, greedy, lustful, coveting the world etc etc - your mind’s reflection will not be in the prettiest light that it can be shown. 

A really good reason for any tripper to to abide by precepts or life principles - so when they see themselves in that special way, and check in on it , the see & know their “soul”and it’s condition - and it can be beautiful, peaceful, and blissful to the extreme - or mild, or horror, or some mix.  Cleansing oneself makes it better.  Living in such a way that it reflects pure & bright & good - is good.  And is the main priority in life.  Keeping it in good condition.  Bc it’s good for me, and everyone & everything else.

Psychedelic drugs can sometimes mimic the conditions for jhanic factors (terminology in Buddhist mediation), but they are not necessary and I know this for a fact - through experience.  This is why I believe some truth can be gleamed from either meditation or psychedelics if they are viewed as the process - not the goal - of insight.

Once you’ve experienced the Jhanas & Nimittas from meditation practice - you know that psychedelics can be experienced without needing an exogenous drug.  It’s really, honestly the truth.  Works either way.  Complementary is best imho.  A little psychedelic and a grounded base of regular daily mediation practice in earnest combined with living principled & disciplined life - we can live in this way too -  noble and mighty, peaceful with clarity and understanding - without painful craving for extra and without the unnecessary clutter & fetters & hinderances that are imposed on us - and that we impose on or ur selves & others when not living rightly & doing our best.  Without it we are like one who is in the midst of water & crying out desperately in thirst, not realizing the very water surrounding them is drinkable & thirst quenching.  That us.  Living unaware and not knowing it.  Psychs at least pinch you if nothing else.


If psychedelics don’t inspire us to that higher calling then they/we have missed the boat.  But they usually do for many, and that is why we take the personal & often times legal risk entailed with growing and consuming them.  Even if in our hearts we know it to be what we make of it and neutral  - look at how much of the world sees and treats it - done no less by those unexperienced & and not living in accord with the most high and utmost deep as known to those who have journeyed heroically into psychedelics bravely and honestly with pure heart & mind. Even those who already use them are varied about their worth & how they are best used.

We do it despite all that, bc we know it is like a gateless gate hidden within & openly to places of untold sublime treasure & exalted insight. Psychedelics exhibit reality profoundly.  A reality already within us / with us.  Just bc you haven’t seen a thing yet doesn’t mean that something isn’t real.  And just because you’ve already seen a thing doesn’t mean it’s real either.  Knowing Awareness -  skillful discernment is the key to the lock that holds knowledge & wisdom in unity. 


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (08/26/20 07:20 AM)


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: The Blind Ass] * 2
    #26900027 - 08/26/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Communication does not have to come from within the molecule.

Psilocybin alters the functioning of the brain, it disrupts the filters and alters the senses.

What can be perceived is different under the influence of psilocybin. 

Entities could potentially exist that are only able to communicate to humans whose brains are functioning in this altered state.

This could be active communication with entities that are currently engaging.
This could be passive communication by finding messages that have been left behind.

I am not saying this is necessarily true, just a potential reality in the multiverse.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: InfiniteDreams]
    #26900261 - 08/26/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:popcorn:

When people say things like "they did acid (or mushrooms) and they completely freaked out and went insane" etc...I tell them it was an underlying condition already present in the person, the substance/plant/drug was merely the catalyst that brought it from the subconscious to the conscious level.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #26900286 - 08/26/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
Everyone who's so sure that there's no actual communication going on, can you guys point me to the study that conclusively tells us what consciousness is and how/where it originates? Science doesn't even act like it has all the answers but when you talk to people so adamant on the side of science people tend to seem pretty close-minded IMO. Consciousness theory is on the forefront of science and new age physics. If consciousness is elemental then it can operate outside of the specific set of parameters the average person sets for it.



:okthatsfunny:

Keep on lookin'.


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: larry.fisherman] * 2
    #26900303 - 08/26/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
Everyone who's so sure that there's no actual communication going on, can you guys point me to the study that conclusively tells us what consciousness is and how/where it originates?




No. Obviously, no such study exists. However, I'll happily use Occam's razor to dismiss the claim that there is actual communication going on, because it is asserted without evidence. I wouldn't describe myself as "so sure" that there is no actual communication going on, but there is no evidence I'm aware of to suggest that there is and, therefore, it is a much more reasonable position to assume that there isn't. Should evidence present itself, I would gladly change my mind, but that's where I stand right now.

I treat the claim that psilocybin is "actually communicating" the same way you might treat the claim that I can start a fire using only my mind. If I tell you that I can, but I never actually do it, then you don't have any evidence. It's much more reasonable for you to assume that I can't actually start a fire with my mind.

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
Science doesn't even act like it has all the answers but when you talk to people so adamant on the side of science people tend to seem pretty close-minded IMO.




Being open-minded doesn't mean believing in things without evidence, though. Being open-minded means being willing to change your mind when you are presented with new evidence. Science, logic, mathematics - these tools are all limited. They can never give us all the answers, so you're right about that. However, while these tools are limited, they are still the most reliable tools we have for understanding reality. They don't give us all the answers, but the answers they give us are consistent, objectively verifiable, and repeatable.

I think that having a bit of skepticism of the claim that "psilocybin is communicating with us" is pretty healthy, actually. You're correct: there isn't much of a scientific understanding of human consciousness at this point. Consciousness is a mystery, darker and more arcane than the depths of the ocean. However, just because we don't understand something doesn't give us license to fill the gaps in our knowledge with baseless claims. It's entertaining to consider the idea that psilocybin is communicating with us, especially because the subjective experiences produced by psilocybin are so interesting, and maybe that metaphor would be useful for some people. However, I don't actually believe that it is communicating with us because I don't see any evidence for that, and I don't think that makes me a close-minded person.

What if I were to make the claim that McDonald's Happy Meals are actually communicating with us and then called anyone who disagreed with me close-minded? What if I asked for everyone who's so sure that there's no actual communication going on from Happy Meals to show me a study that conclusively tells us what consciousness is? After all, science doesn't conclusively tell us that there isn't communication coming from Happy Meals. See? Science can't give us all the answers, so believing that Happy  Meals aren't communicating with us is pretty close-minded.

I'm not sure if your comment was directed at me, but I'd like to stand up for myself and all the other non-believers in this thread and say that founding your beliefs in the results of science and dismissing beliefs for which there is no evidence does not make you a close-minded person. If anything, science has made me more open-minded because it's opened the door to so many new types of questions that I otherwise might not have ever considered. Science is a very reliable tool, but it always leaves you with more questions than answers, and I think that's what being open-minded is all about. Characterizing skeptical, logical, scientific people as close-minded is a tactic used by religious evangelists, and I don't think it's very intellectually honest.


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Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26900332 - 08/26/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:congrats:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26900566 - 08/26/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Microbiologists are now studying killer parasitic bacteria which seem to chase down larger bacteria to enter, eat, and multiply by mitosis.

https://vp.nyt.com/video/2020/08/21/88147_1_25SCI-BACTERIA-loop_wg_480p.mp4


I do not think this suggest consciousness, or awareness, but it is a high speed tropism wherein the predatory bacterium is climbing a continuous gradient of chemical markers of a good lunch and a progenitive site.  It does not chase per se, but seems to do so as it wiggles along in the chemical trail of the larger prey.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: tyrannicalrex] * 1
    #26900647 - 08/26/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
:congrats:



:whathesaid:

Like with the apparitions seen in visionary states induced by psychedelic substances or in dreams , we should know them as pure mind phenomena, in other words, they are of/is/are mind.  What’s that tell you?  Should make one question a lot of things, in a good way that leads to a better understanding.  Unchecked personal beliefs should be cast aside and as more becomes clear over time through reflecting upon our experience we will naturally be more open but also more discerning, at least, that’s my wish/aspiration. 

We can’t say it’s there & we can’t really say it’s not there, that’s why Mind is special-yet-ordinary and primordially pure.  Really even beyond pure and impure etc, but ya know how the paradoxical nature & limits with lingo is, I pray.  Somewhat like the Universe, sure quarks and protons and whatever come together in ways that give rise to appearances, but they are impermanent too, and the conservation of energy and Omega’ value should be a potential clue presenting a worthy route of investigation as to the nature of the universe & mind being mirrored in some deep yet simple way.


--------------------
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Offlineepilectric
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26900657 - 08/26/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

don't take anything in life too seriously and you'll be fine.. care less about your own thoughts and more about your fellow humans. that's what i've learned so far...


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: epilectric]
    #26900664 - 08/26/20 02:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Epilectric, comin' outta hiding! :grin:


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26900742 - 08/26/20 02:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
It does not chase per se, but seems to do so as it wiggles along in the chemical trail of the larger prey.




Clever girl.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: InfiniteDreams] * 3
    #26901027 - 08/26/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

IME mushroom trips will feed you all kinds of strange stuff seemingly just to see if you'll buy it.  People like tripping (small amounts/frequencies) because the strange stuff is so entertaining while being presented as literally true (i.e. in the sense of a hallucination appears to be utterly real, so much so that you don't question it - much like dreams seem real at the time, no matter how far fetched).  People also like tripping (large doses and/or frequencies) because they enjoy coming in contact with whatever the underlying reality is that seems to pervade trip experiences.  Some people swing from one to the other extreme (me for instance) over time.  Nothing you can really do with any of that that's harmful IME.

Whether these trips are being "sent" from some other separate realm/entity/reality is a different kind of question than their epistemological veracity. You can accept the information from trips and act on it to improve your life - countless people will attest to this.  You can accept the information from trips that are visionary and actually predict future events or to locate objects - less but still a substantial number of people will attest to this.  You can just enjoy the visuals and the vibes - even more people, likely most all, do this.  You can use the connection that hyperspace enables with the spirit realm to do practical healing "magic" or earth "magic" or weather "magic" or any of a long list of things.  Don't find too many people get quite that far.

But the point is the trip itself is beyond "truth or lies", it inhabits a level of consciousness that is very difficult to evoke without the aid of the mushrooms.  It brings you a direct connection to a larger reality that typically lies hidden in the mundane world, and this connection is extremely valuable, extremely useful, and available for the most part to anybody who wants to partake.

:cookiemonster:


--------------------

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26901261 - 08/26/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:wink:


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Offlinerickomalley238
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26901385 - 08/26/20 09:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lostintimenspc said:
The world is abstract. "External" today still means something like rich people wearing wigs in scholarly places decided it did, namely, that it was a fairly basic machine.

After a certain amount of changing of the mind, you can come to realise that the world is an internal state, start to finish. Multileveled, and unanswered for.

You sound a bit schizoid. Schizophrenia is a physical condition, it arises from poor childhoods especially ones with episodes of trauma. Schizophrenia is the condition a traumatized child is left in, and the brain grows from there. Essentially some parts of the brain aren't as big as others. (Don't bother with medication)

I think mushrooms can probably help with schizoid brains. Just my opinion and experience. They regrow the brain, that's one.




What the fuck, dude? For thinking psilocybin may be an external experience he sounds schizoid?


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Offlinehotspringsmystic
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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: rickomalley238] * 1
    #26901537 - 08/27/20 01:41 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I believe its not a concious force but the brain and mind connecting in new and different ways from conventional reality and can be used as a tool for healing and growth.


Edited by hotspringsmystic (08/27/20 01:41 AM)


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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26902056 - 08/27/20 10:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
Epilectric, comin' outta hiding! :grin:




went to my grandma's place for a week to lower living costs :laugh:


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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: epilectric]
    #26902059 - 08/27/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hell yeah! No shame in that game.


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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: hotspringsmystic]
    #26903992 - 08/28/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hotspringsmystic said:
I believe its not a concious force but the brain and mind connecting in new and different ways from conventional reality and can be used as a tool for healing and growth.




That sounds like a safe ontological starting point.


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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26905925 - 08/29/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
...

But the point is the trip itself is beyond "truth or lies", it inhabits a level of consciousness that is very difficult to evoke without the aid of the mushrooms.  It brings you a direct connection to a larger reality that typically lies hidden in the mundane world, and this connection is extremely valuable, extremely useful, and available for the most part to anybody who wants to partake.

:cookiemonster:




Agreed with everything, however, rather than saying "a level of consciousness" - which is fraught with definition distractions, I would say "mind state", which opens into solid analysis in a number of directions and clarity across the board.


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Re: Psilocybin truth or lies [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26907033 - 08/30/20 01:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah I think you're right there.  Let me see...

But the point is the trip itself is beyond "truth or lies", it inhabits a mental realm that is very difficult to evoke without the aid of the mushrooms.  It brings you a direct connection to a larger reality that typically lies hidden in the mundane world, and this connection is extremely valuable, extremely useful, and available for the most part to anybody who wants to partake.


Mental realm is more or less non-partisan.  Mind state would also work.


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